The NYC Dyke March is being boycotted by many other organizations including Act Up NYC for putting out and subsequently deleting this statement. Thoughts?
Imma be real I don't really think this statement is bad at all, but I understand that others have read it as "all lives matter"-ing the genocide in Gaza. Would love to hear more takes.
I think their statement was thoughtful - BUT I'm also very sick and tired of seeing pro-Israel activists attempt to (and often succeed in) centering the conversation around Jewish safety.
Let's be clear - that safety matters BUT it's not anti-Zionist or even post-Zionist Jews who are sounding the alarm. It's pro-Israel ideologues and activists who are fixated on responding to the mere EXISTENCE of Palestinian identity in American society with concern-trolling about 'safety'.
In that context (ie pro-Israel activism attempting to criminalize Palestinian existence in the court of public opinion), this does seem like 'All Lives Matter' type obfuscation.
Much like that case, all lives do matter of course but the point of BLM was to affirm that Black lives matter in the face of police brutality & systemic racism that normalized the notion that they (Black lives) did not. So the expression 'BLM' is an assertion/affirmation/response. It's not saying 'only' BLM and likewise when we center Palestinian lives, we're not saying 'only' theirs do.
So that is why I'm focused on centering Palestinian lives above these claims of 'safety' - because the latter is coming from pro-Israel activists in what I believe is a cynical attempt to criminalize Palestinian-ness.
I want to point out that the ADL's data on antisemitism is inflated because they intentionally conflate pro-Palestine messaging and criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
There is a rise of antisemitic attacks in the UK. There is an ever-present threat from far-right antisemitism.
But the accusation of antisemitism on the Left is frequently overblown and exaggerated by pro-Israel extremists.
Yes I agree with this. I think people are reading ADL's definitions and books about how Jews are left out of activism and taking it to heart. People are in full denial and are still clearly triggered. I don't even see the point of putting out any statements at all. There was a pride event in my city and no statements were made about any of this. There was a Pro Palestine booth, booths for several churches, and their first ever synagogue booth which mentioned nothing about zionism and had zero problems. Nobody hated on them, no Antisemitism happened. Everything was fine. There is a lot of fear mongering propaganda happening in Jewish spaces and it needs to stop.
It could have been more succinct and less needlessly mollifying. "We have received some questions about x,y, and z and we will reiterate that antisemitism is not tolerated at our event or in our community. We remain committed to Palestinian liberation." Or something like that.
It's also built right into their mission statement: "Any person who identifies as a dyke is welcome to march regardless of gender expression or identity, sex assigned at birth, sexual orientation, race, age, political affiliation, religious identity, ability, class, or immigration status." Lean on your mission statement! That's almost always the answer.
I see some comments being completely dismissive re: how this statement may be taken and how supposedly reasonable it is. I don't know why people have to feel so superior about not recoiling from verbiage like this. Personally, coddling Zionists doesn't make me feel safe at an event. And I wouldn't want to participate in lukewarm Zionist pandering during Pride. Or any other time.
I resent calling this "drama". Dyke march is a protest, not a parade. It has always been political.
Edit: These comments are wacky af to me. You think this statement is "not that bad"? You seem really irritated with anyone who doesn't look at thist statement and say, "Eh, it's fine. Could be worse." You don't have to show up in their Insta comments screaming and ranting, but you can be critical and want better from organizations you believe in. There's a way to encourage an organization to make better choices without becoming deranged.
jew here too , basically completely unrelated but it gives me a chuckle; i feel like every time i see a comment clarifying “i’m jewish,” we’ve all picked the same damn hair for our avatars! Also free palestine
Oh my gosh. I need to watch out for that. I feel like there's a thesis statement here about the avatar hair choices we make! My hair has never been so well depicted. Truly. These avatars and certain pictures of Susie Essman:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():focal(999x0:1001x2)/Susie-Essman-040824-b5a7eb5a2bd14e699430032b0554bef6.jpg).
jew here too , basically completely unrelated but it gives me a chuckle; i feel like every time i see a comment clarifying “i’m jewish,” we’ve all picked the same damn hair for our avatars! Also free palestine
Just a quote to prevent this from being mass edited.
Yeahhhhhh… someone released a committee members name and personal information and they got doxxed. Had people threatening to show up to their house with knives/trash it. Really messed up.
I’m not attempting to be dismissive or superior when I added my comment.. and I added a follow up reply. I get what you’re saying totally and I think you’re right.. I just also think if this statement helps a few uninformed Jewish people feel safer, that could be one step closer to them abandoning Zionism. A statement like this is cringey and disappointing but ultimately I do not see how it costs all that much
I don't see how coddling Zionists is going to make them recognize the humanity of the Palestinians. I think our country is constantly clutching its pearls and pretending to be invested in Jewish safety, and that doesn't seem to have tipped the scales in the favor of the Palestinian people at all. Antisemitism exists, but not because Palestinian people dare to exist.
I think it's fine that this org's statement doesn't bother you. I'm personally disappointed that a movement that prioritizes queer liberation has fallen short.
I’m disappointed as well I just don’t find it to be so horrific the march should be boycotted. I also don’t think all the Jewish people who are fearful of antisemitism at pride are all “Zionists” though most of them are. I think plenty are merely misinformed
I’m not saying you shouldn’t. I’m just a bit bothered by more and more divisions within communities of people who largely support each other. That’s it. It’s one thing to allow zionists at your march and it’s another to potentially coddle overly sensitive people
Edit: by overly sensitive I mean well meaning Jewish people who have bought into the propaganda that these marches are unsafe but also support Palestinians.. anyway the OP blocked me so.. I just wanted to clarify for everyone else.
I also don’t love the dyke march statement.. if that isn’t clear.. I just don’t think we as an Antizionist Jewish community are getting anywhere by telling all Jews that are at all afraid to get over it. We’re like the one group that even has a tiny potential to bridge the gap with on the fence Zionists/zionist apologists
I'm curious. Since I didn't mention boycotting, why are you particularly singling me out on this? I made a number of different points, none of which have to do with boycotting, yet you are aiming all of your boycott-centric frustrations in my direction. I talked about my wish that the organization would be more succinct in its message. I talked about the importance of leaning on an organization's mission statement. I talked about how Zionists don't make me, as a queer Jew, feel safe at an event. Why is their safety more important than my own? I talked about wishing this organization made better choices. I barely criticized this organization at all. You are using terms like "find it so horrific". Did I do or say anything that implied I was horrified by this?
I didn't use the term boycott one time. Why me? Why, out of everything I said, are you honing in on a point I didn't make?
I’m honestly not sure what about my posting is coming off as critical or frustrated with you.. I’m talking about the situation more generally and since you mentioned me specially about “not boycotting” I suppose I wrongly assumed you were for it and were suggesting I make alternate decisions. I don’t think I mentioned you at all.. this thread is specifically about people who are horrified enough to boycott it. I responded to your statement since you were calling out people who were unbothered so I merely attempted to explain my position. That’s all.
This has been a spectacular waste of time. You have no POV, you have no argument. You have been talking to me about a boycott I didn't ask for or even mention. "I don’t think I mentioned you at all"? You have been responding to my statements. When you click "reply" the person gets a notification that you are talking to them.
Yeah it’s giving all lives matter. They could have just posted the first and fifth paragraphs. It’s a good idea to emphasize that antizionism and antisemitism aren’t the same thing, but I can see how this is parroting a lot of J-street esque talking points that rub people the wrong way. You can say Jews are welcome, but Bringing up the hostages as if no one is paying them any mind when they have been used to excuse genocide and recently kill scores more Palestinians than there even are hostages, and acting as if October 7th was an attack on Jews for being Jewish and not on settler colonialism that is being perpetrated by Jews, is pretty liberal Zionist imo.
Excellently put. A friend recently accused me of having no empathy for Jewish suffering because I don’t talk about it in my activism and I was trying to explain that as Jewish suffering has so often been used to obscure Palestinian suffering, it feels grotesque to keep going on about it in the current context.
I agree completely. I am especially tired and not at all accommodating to supposed anti-zionist Jews who constantly center themselves and how they feel and want more focus on Jewish Israeli suffering. As if that isn't the dominant narrative literally in almost the entire world, mass media, of the only pain that matters. I don't think we need to play into that false symmetry and disproportionate attention on a few hundred people and we have no idea how many were actually killed by Palestinians. Versus the over 100,000 killed by Israel. It just feels perverse and I know where my focus belongs.
A lot of these posts seem to think jews concerned about antisemitism are making things up. There was an 1300% rise in antisemitic hatecrimes in the uk in 2023 according to the police. Jews have every right to discuss it and instead of pro-palestine spaces dismissing all of it as bad faith attempts to decenter palestine it would behoove them to take it seriously- educate themselves, adopt a definition of antisemitism other than “there are jews here therefore antisemitism cannot exist” and actually bolster their cause as free from antisemitism with actual receipts. It would be good for the cause and more jews would march.
Tearing down hostage posters is considered an antisemitic hate crime according to the Met Police, so I won’t be taking those figures particularly seriously.
I don’t think all the accusations are bad faith, though a huge number are. A large number of those that aren’t are still indicative of a mindset that believes pro-Palestine activism should somehow be subject to Jewish approval and call anything that makes them uncomfortable, e.g. support for Palestinian armed resistance, calling for the dismantling of Israel, antisemitic. One flounced out of a meeting because of a t-shirt I (a Jew) was wearing which had been designed by a Jewish artist.
That doesn’t mean antisemitism doesn’t exist - I’ve had maybe less than 10 instances, limited to dodgy comments, in pro-Palestine spaces since last year. All of which I shut down and moved on and that was that.
Not getting involved in action against one of the most horrific crimes in recent memory because of a pre-occupation that there might be a chance of something that might, at most, make you feel upset and uncomfortable is as I said, grotesque. And the people that keep going on about it expose themselves for the self-absorbed navel-gazers that they are.
Captive posters which also call Hamas terrorists. Oh my they're just "Jewish posters". Not political at all! If we put up posters for Palestinians held hostage in Israeli dungeons for years including being sexually abused and called the Israeli military and government terrorists on those posters, do you really think they would stay up? Would they be considered non political?
I think you are making very sweeping assumptions based on your personal experience and your very tailored algorithm about how much truly wild and vile antisemitism is going on and making a lot of assumptions about other jews. Everyone is seriously underestimating their algorithm in their opinion of “antisemitism is a problem”. There is tons of horrifying stuff and its gone past zionists to jews in general that your algorithm isnt showing you. I wonder if there is a level at which the incidents have to grow to for fellow anti-zionists to stop dismissing it and actually look at it. 500% increase? 3000% increase? Murders? It’s a scary thought. And I know tons of jews silently donating to palestinian causes and not going to protests. I would have a little more faith in our tribe before you lump jews into such distinct groups.
I’ve been involved in pro-Palestine activism for the past 2 decades and have access to a search engine. I also follow UK Jewish news organisations really closely. Unfortunately they’re not reporting on the ‘tonnes of horrifying stuff’ you seem to be privy to, they’re still bleating about hate marches and Corbyn. I’m also sure that the worst incidents, whatever they are, aren’t coming from pro-Palestine activism which is what we’re talking about.
It’s not about numbers. A 3000% increase in people calling the police because they saw a Palestinian flag - something that happpened constantly post Oct 7th where I am, a photo of a flag in someone’s window would be shared in local Jewish/Israeli WhatsApp groups & lots of people would call the police & CST - means nothing. But it would have to get a hell of a lot worse for me to even consider prioritising it when I’m watching videos of Palestinian kids purposefully being torn to shreds.
As for my faith in Jews, I only referred to the ones you brought up. Those still handwringing ‘but won’t somebody think of the Jews?!’ while our mainstream organisations cheer on the brutal extermination of an entire people. Silently donating when you know that perversely, your voice as a Jew is taken so much more seriously than that of a Palestinian is less than the bare minimum. On the other hand, some of the bravest, most steadfast, most committed non-Palestinian anti-Zionists I know are Jewish and they make me deeply proud every single day.
Have you ever considered that it might actually be your tailored algorithm that’s leading you to have an overblown idea of how bad things are? Leading you to make assumptions about other Jews in this thread? To be scared, when you really have no reason to be?
So you are…. Proving my point… that you haven’t seen the vile stuff… because it hasn’t reached you… and are making generalizations based on the sham cases of antisemitism that you have seen that less “moral” jews than you are scared for no reason.
Ya I agree I figured thats what was happening, if you’ll recall ✨
And I do consider the algorithm all the time! Thats why I bring it up. Helps me have more faith in humanity when they are being very dismissive of horrible things its cause they havent seen it. I also make efforts to not be in an echo chamber- my opinions on this don’t fall neatly into the way others tell me I am supposed to think about everything. As you see.
Lol no, you’re missing the point but it’s ok I’ll spell it out for you. ✨
I’m saying that I deeply, fundamentally disagree that the current level/incidents of antisemitism in the UK are so ‘vile and horrifying’ that they warrant taking up space in pro-Palestine spaces & organising.
That doesn’t mean I’m not aware of them as you keep insisting, it means I think they are no where near serious enough to distract from a genocide. The sham case I described was to make the point that numbers are meaningless, not that all cases are like that.
I mean, the arguments you’ve been making do in fact fit neatly into what mainstream Jewish organisations are telling me I’m supposed to think, so it’s amusing that you seem to see yourself as somehow above being influenced by echo chambers.
Lol a 12 year old just got gang raped for being jewish and you’re telling me nothing is vile. But I must be influenced by Israeli propaganda to think maybe some antisemitism is growing!You arent going to convince me that holding multiple truths at once is somehow immoral or bad for Palestinians.
Wait you were talking about the UK, are we suddenly in France?
Also, did you actually read the point I’ve been making? Saying it is not the job of pro-Palestine spaces/acrivists/organisers to spend the meagre resources they have on constantly reassuring Jews =/ saying antisemitism isn’t bad, doesn’t exist, or shouldn’t be tackled full stop. No one’s stopping you doing that, they’re rightly refusing to let it distract from a genocide.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, you’re one who came into the comment thread attempting that. I’m explaining my position to anyone else reading the thread.
it’s a march for a community , it shouldn’t be zionist and i’m glad they’ve been vocally pro palestine but i rly don’t think it’s reasonable to say zionists not welcome, this is NYC for gods sake. As long as they don’t do anything crazy like wave an israeli flag and yell shit or be vocal abt it at the march i dont see why they should be excluded. They can be made to feel uncomfortable by the posts and proud pro palestine sentiment but if they posted something trying to say that zionists weren’t welcome that would be kinda fucked
Statement looks good to me. This is directly influenced by the DC march kerfuffle 5 years ago. It’s not AllLivesMatter to understand that Jews are upset about Oct 7th. This sub is welcome to disagree with me.
I do think they could change the order of the paragraphs and slides to center the ongoing violence against Palestinians, but I’m not going to freak out about it.
Yeah I get where that reaction comes from but I think we would all be better off extending a little grace here and there. IDK about y'all but figuring out exactly what to say in the situation is hard and they didn't do a bad job IMO.
There is a 140% increase in antisemitic hatecrimes in 2023 and another 40% in NYC in 2024. Addressing the huge rise in antisemitism is simply intersectional. Calling this “alllivesmatter”ing is a badfaith, dismissive comparison.
This post seems perfectly reasonable and them deleting is problematic. All this talk of not centering the conversation around jewish voices is true especially if we are talking policy, but this author is correct, empathy and care are not finite resources. This post at no point is pro israel and very firmly stands against the genocide and for palestinian freedom. Also from what this post indicates they have been centering palestine for a long time and this is the first time they acknowledged anything abt 10/7 being bad or antisemitism its not like this is a big platform for them.
This is not all lives mattering. People were killed. If they never addressed the deaths in October when it happened, it is appropriate to mention now. If they consistently mentioned hostages and Israelis over Palestinians that would be different. I think it's really sad that mentioning any Jewish death is offensive to people. But I also think it's very odd that there was not any statement about any of this until now, which isn't common for an LGBT institution. This is especially true because of how there is such high involvement of LGBT folks in activism for Palestine. This reminds me of when dyke marches in Canada used to ban pride flags with Stars of David on them. Is it necessary? Not at all. That's not what an Israeli flag is.
I could not find this statement on their Instagram page, but I did find one that was nothing like this at all. This is a much better statement posted in April. Is this deleted statement recent?
I don't think there's anything wrong with mentioning the Jewish deaths from October 7, but weren't like 900-1100 of the ~2800 people who died that day Jewish?
I think erasing the deaths of all the others to center the deaths of privileged group is a problem
Of the 1179, around 700+ were civilians. Of those 700+, some subset (at least 14) of Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli security forces due to "counter-offensive actions" or gross negligence - as per the United Nations:
227) [...]According to the Commission’s investigation, in these two cases at least 14 Israeli civilians were likely killed as a result of Israeli Security Forces fire: one woman was killed by helicopter fire while being taken from kibbutz Nir Oz to Gaza by militants78 and the other 13 were likely killed by tank shelling and crossfire in kibbutz Be’eri.
Under most legal doctrines, if a kidnapping victim is killed by law enforcement while attempting to stop the crime, the perpetrator is legally liable for the death due to it being a direct result of the crime of kidnapping.
Now, that doesn’t mean military/LE should be so careless and cavalier about civilian lives, but I think it’s still fair to say that deaths resulting from “friendly fire” on Oct. 7 are primarily due to Hamas, even if the ordnance was from the IDF. That being since, in the months since, Israel has continued to refuse hostage release deals while bombing places with hostages present. For that they are much more culpable.
And if the military made no effort to safeguard civilian lives then of course their share of responsibility increases, especially when paired with the Hannibal directive
I agree. That's definitely a problem. The whole thing is a tragedy. Just wanted to point out that the dyke march page mentioned Gaza several times and Palestinians as well. It feels like they used some generic phrases to "ease the reaction" of triggered Jews, but it backfired. I have honestly seen almost every single group that mentioned the deaths of anyone during this genocide be criticized. Sometimes for centering Jews too much, sometimes for not doing it enough . I feel like this is inconsequential. I don't think we need social media posts, especially this late after many other orgs have already posted the same exact thing one their pages. Jews who thought they wouldn't be safe need to understand why they feel this way and the dyke march organizers just need to assure people that all will be welcome. It's pretty simple. Making placating statements seems counter intuitive at this point, but I don't think it's all lives mattering.
OK but why single out "rising antisemitism"? There's rising Islamophobia. There's rising anti-Arabism.
It's like if they were organizing in the middle of BLM and some white people were concerned about growing hate for white people, and cops were concerned about growing hate for cops, and then they put out a statement addressing these concerns, without addressing the larger power dynamics that led to this. They need to come out strongly critical of Israel for it to not come across as pandering.
Imagine it's 1939, Jews are fleeing to the U.S. because of the rise of Hitler and Naziism. Many Americans of Germanic descenet are defending what's happening in Germany, while others disavow Naziism and Hitler. A few Americans of Germanic descent also become victims of rising tensions (despite some of them supporting the Jewish people who have been victimized, and protesting Germany's expansionism)
Let's pretend the captives in a Jewish ghetto managed to escape on October 7 1939, and killed a bunch of Germans, many who were civilians, as well as some foreign nationals and even some other Jews who were stealthing.
In the midst of this, let's pretend there was a massive dyke march in the U.S., and its organizers publish a statement in solidarity with the Jews, and decrying Naziism and the actions of Germany.
Some Germans who identify as Aryan feel uncomfortable attending because of fears of anti-Aryan prejudice and fears due to the October 7 attack which resulted in the death of many Aryans (but even more Jews). Would you think it's OK if the protest organizers publish this in a clarifying statment?
We acknowledge that our delay to publicly acknowledge the (Jewish) attack of October 7 1939 also caused harm. We mourn the senseless loss of Aryan life which occurred as a result of the October 7 attacks
Those attacks didn't happen in a vacuum, and there's a good chance many, if not most, of the Germans expressing fear in that scenario are Nazis. Why would people at the march have a problem with Germans who are marching against rising Naziism?
Speaking of this rally, how many Jews do you know who are anti-zionists and would be uncomfortable going to the rally without the second statement? As an anti-zionist Jew myself I don't want the organizers of other social justice events making statements that pander to the Zionists in any way, shape or form. If they're going to put out a statement like that they need to make it clear that Zionism is an evil, unacceptable ideology, and they're specifically welcoming Jews amongst their ranks, but Zionism is an unacceptably hateful ideology.
If a loudly racist white church was bombed, they can come out against racism and violence without making it about "growing anti-white racism" and how white people should feel comfortable to attend. Like why are we even conflating white people with this super-racist church in the first place?
I realize it's not exactly the same because Jews are a minority in the U.S. and also the target of discriminatory attitudes, but perhaps white people will be in the future also as demographics continue to shift, that doesn't mean white privilege will fully disappear and doesn't mean we should stop acknowledging it.
Can you recall the source for your claim that organizers of Pride marches have excluded the flags you mention?
Pink-washing is a problem in the LGBTQ+ community and it's great they are handling it.
There's a difference between merely existing (as you seem to imply) versus a pro-Israel organization and/or individuals attempting to obfuscate the state of Israel's humanitarian record by interjecting itself in progressive messaging.
If you're going to count IOF deaths then absolutely I'm going to count the deaths of the Palestinian resistance that day, yeah. Not just "Hamas" but a number of other groups.
If you're just looking at civilians and consider ~700 died, compared to ~1600 Gazan resistance, it kind of changes the calculus on how you look at the day (and that ~700 number includes foreign nationals and non-Jews).
And that's not including deaths of other Palestinians from that same day who hadn't breached the walls of the areas they were confined to (people in West Bank and Gaza).
The statement by the Dyke march centering the deaths of Jews on October 7 is really leaving a lot out.
two thirds Jewish and foreign civilians, the remaining were Israeli military.
You mean two thirds were not actively serving in IOF. Of that two thirds, there were Muslims, Christians, and foreign nationals. They weren't all Jewish as statements like the one above would have us believe
Reservists, religiously exempted non military members, retired elderly, and “future conscripts” (aka children) are not valid military targets under most war crime definitions.
America has a draft on file, with your logic every male American is a “potential draftee” and valid military target.
First of all I'm not saying anyone is a "valid military target". I don't know where you got that idea.
I'm saying almost 400 hundred of the Israelis killed on October 7 were actively serving IDF. Of the remaining casualties who were not militarized Palestinian resistance, there were still many non-Jews and non-Israelis.
Okay so here’s what I was going to say until I reread your statement and caught what I had misunderstood on your point :
“You said “not actively serving”. I’ve seen some otherwise pretty reasonable people claim that Israeli civilian is an oxymoron due to conscription. They say that civilians within the ‘67 borders who have completely retired from the military, including the elderly, may re-enter service, or that children are future soldiers. Some claim all such people are foreign settler colonists.”
So I thought you were going that way.
However, on a reread it seems like all you were doing was ensuring that we not forget the non-Jewish civilians of Israel, which is certainly something that needs to be brought up. So I commend you for doing so, and I apologize for the misunderstanding stemming from my inability to fully comprehend your statement on first read.
No worries, I appreciate your willingness to challenge your initial impressions of what I was saying. I'm not really sure how to express this more clearly; people seem to have an easier time analyzing the conflict at a very superficial level, and then it becomes "Hamas" and "Israeli Jews" on October 7, when those were only some of the actors and victims on that day.
We all know people were killed on Oct. 7th & Jewish safety obviously matters in-and-of itself.
But pro-Israel ideologues frequently attempt to center the conversation around Jewish safety in a cynical and exploitative attempt to marginalize or outright criminalize Palestinian existence.
Jewish Currents has commented on how the ADL has done this in the past (and continues to do so).
Notably, after Israel’s 11-day attack on Gaza and the West Bank in May 2021, in which at least 282 Palestinians were killed, the ADL worked to redirect the discourse to center Jewish victimhood rather than Israeli brutality. (It was at this time Greenblatt made his “Charlottesville every day” comments on television.) This past May, Greenblatt rang in the one-year anniversary of Israel’s bombardment by declaring, in an extensive presentation at an annual ADL gathering, that three leading Palestine solidarity groups were “extremist” in nature, “the photo inverse of the extreme right that ADL long has tracked.”
Palestinians and supporters of their liberation/human rights have frequently been cancelled, marginalized, censored, etc. in the interests of putting Jewish safety on a pedestal.
It happens so frequently, I can Google one example right now:
Pro-Israel group objected to display saying it made Jewish patients feel ‘vulnerable, harassed and victimised’.
This conflates all Jews with Zionism and all Jews feeling one way and that every single person in so called Israel is Jewish. There is a way to say that loss of life is tragic, and that being in solidarity with Palestinians is not anti-Semitic, and those folks who feel it IS and are threatened by it, should take some time to ask why that's the case. This was.....wooooooof not a good look. Also in their pre-apology they say this was posted "late at night" like it was a poltergeist lol
Because it's more-than-likely that the complaints in-question about Jewish safety aren't coming from Jewish supporters of Palestine solidarity activism.
They are coming from pro-Israel activists - who have a history of responding to the mere presence of Palestinian identity with concern-trolling about safety.
For example:
Pro-Israel group objected to display saying it made Jewish patients feel ‘vulnerable, harassed and victimised’.
Jewish Currents has written about this as well, and it's a very familiar phenomena now.
Notably, after Israel’s 11-day attack on Gaza and the West Bank in May 2021, in which at least 282 Palestinians were killed, the ADL worked to redirect the discourse to center Jewish victimhood rather than Israeli brutality. (It was at this time Greenblatt made his “Charlottesville every day” comments on television.) This past May, Greenblatt rang in the one-year anniversary of Israel’s bombardment by declaring, in an extensive presentation at an annual ADL gathering, that three leading Palestine solidarity groups were “extremist” in nature, “the photo inverse of the extreme right that ADL long has tracked.”
If Jews are asking if they'll be safe at a marrch that is in solidarity with Palestine, it's because they believe being in solidarity with Palestine is anti-Semitic
this is the thing, actual die hard zionists are not gonna be appeased by this bcz it is still handedly pro palestine, but it may ease fears of less informed jews who r uncomfortable just bcz of all the narratives going around and their family influence.
Yea absolutely what I am trying to say here.. idk why this is so controversial and unfathomable for some on this thread. It’s not about giving into Zionists.. it’s about bridging the gap with Jewish people who aren’t extremely politically aware and can very easily buy into the paranoia.. come on now.. why is this so hard and bad? Anyway.. thank you for summarizing what I’m trying to get across
No I'm not. That flag is about so called Israeli gay pride, not Jewish gay pride. And although it was a few years before, the pride flag would be held, this month, by an IOF soldier in front of demolished buildings in Gaza, where they probably killed hundreds of people, with the words "in the name of love" written on it. I'm not misunderstanding in the slightest. The pinkwashing of so called Israel has been going on for ages.
I must say, I think all the Jewish pride flags I see online look more or less like the one in that article. (Except one with a...menorah for some reason)
It was literally a coalition of people, including Jews (who I know personally), who banned that flag because of the correlation it has with so called Israel, and what none of those articles mentions is, those people who were holding it were verbally and physically harassing people with Palestinian flags. Also literally in that article the holder of the flag is quoted saying she is a Zionist who believes in a two state solution. Maybe we don't believe everything a large Zionist apologist media website says at face value.
Do you understand how cringeworthy it is to decide to spend energy putting down what indigenous people have been asking folks to do which is acknowledge and name colonized lands so history of the people who have been occupied and brutalized doesn't get erased? Also I could make it soooooooooooooo much longer I could say "unceeded and occupied Palestine colonially known as Israel" but "so called" is a little easier for me to type in haste but I suppose since I'm pointing it out anyway maybe I'll just take the extra time to do it in the future so thanks for the encouragement just because it makes you annoyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the Jewish marchers, Laurel Grauer, Midwest manager of A Wider Bridge
Respectfully, this article is clearly obfuscating the additional context that the people who were ejected were members of a Zionist pink washing organization.
People hear "being in solidarity with Palestine is not anti-Semitic" as "one cannot be anti-Semitic as long as one is acting in expressed solidarity with Palestine". It's not the case that there is no antisemitism among genuine liberatory activists. They are a little disgusted by us. They see us as goblins, landlords, a little bit.
I don't disagree that there is anti-Semitism everywhere, but that's not what I'm talking about. Im talking about why doing a post like this conflates all Jews with so called Israel. Who is saying they see us as goblins and/or landlords? Where are you hearing this????
I agree with you. Any mention of genuine antisemitism on this sub seems to get incredibly downvoted…
It seems anyone willing to look at antisemitism and take it seriously is getting labeled a zionist. Is ignoring/dismissing antisemitism a requirement of anti-zionism?
its not shit but it is kinda giving all lives matter and needlessly long. really couldve been much shorter while expressing the same message. something like “we received questions asking if jewish people are safe and welcome to the 2024 march. the answer is a yes. we reiterate our commitment to the safety of, palestinian liberation, and fighting antisemitism, along with all forms of oppression.” couldve been much easier and succinct while getting at the same point
According to the whitehouse.gov:
The United States has recently experienced an alarming increase in antisemitic incidents, among other acts of hatred. American Jews account for 2.4% of the U.S. population, but they are the victims of 63% of reported religiously motivated hate crimes, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).
Why are jews on this thread acting like its anti-palestine to acknowledge antisemitism.
I don't see Jewish people in this thread saying that at all.
Things that are antisemitic: scores of Costco khaki-ed neo-Naz*s chanting "Jews will not replace us"; people being gunned down in synagogues in Pennsylvania; talking publicly about your "Jew lawyer"; RFK, Jr. loudly and proudly claiming that Jewish people are immune to Covid-19, slamming a Jewish college professor to the ground who is just trying to protect her students at a pro-Palestine rally.
Things that aren't antisemitic: Anti-Israel sentiments, Palestinian people existing, and calling what's happening in Palestine a genocide.
Conservatives, Republicans and many Democrats only let us talk about antisemitism when it's at the expense of Palestinian people. Otherwise, we're not a priority. They don't really care about us otherwise.
We can't scream about October 7th every time someone mentions thousands of dead Palestinian people. We need to curb that impulse. When someone tells me their mom has been diagnosed with cancer, it's not my moment to interrupt and yell, "WELL MY MOM DIED OF CANCER!" Palestinian grief is not an invitation to detour the conversation into discussions about October 7th and the Holocaust.
Jewish people centering themselves in these conversations is repulsive and it doesn't endear us to anyone.
I don’t disagree with anything you are saying. There is also a huge swath of rhetoric from nonjewish leftists that is getting veeeery scary. And I don’t think its okay to say well I am a jew who opposes genocide so therefore I’m going to ignore antisemitism against bad jews because its not coming at me. We’ve seen that before. Also many non- jews emboldened that they can never be antisemitic because jews have said criticizing Israel isnt antisemitic and be against genocide isnt antisemitic and they are marching alongside jewish friends and therefore can say whatever, WHATEVER, with impunity. Asserting jews control the media and politics is still antisemitic. I have seen so many people straight up holocaust deny or say everyone in israel should be killed, just say horrific things. The leftist comment threads and the super jew hating conspiracy theory threads are becoming the same thread. And it IS scary and I think there needs to be more room for talking about it without calling it centering ourselves. Especially on a subreddit for jews. The stakes for a mass movement towards our dehumanization are high. And if I have to prove my goodness to fellow antizionist jews as I seem to need to all non-jews to talk about antisemitism… where are we?
Well, even though I agree that antisemtism is a problem and I don’t agree this post is bad.. it’s complicated.
The level of antisemitic incidents is complex.. 1. Jews are more likely to report to police than other groups such as Muslims. 2. The definition of antisemtism is incredibly loosey goosey.. which I take major issue with
The other thing is.. as others laid out, not all the victims on October 7th were Jewish. And most Zionists aren’t Jewish. I think the critical piece here is that isrsel/palestine really isn’t a Jewish issue.. and making it one is frustrating. And I agree with that. This post just plays into the idea that anti Israel messaging is scary for Jews.
However. Jewish people are terrified and are afraid.. and do feel uncomfortable with anti Israel messaging… therefore I see nothing wrong with a message acknowledging this and welcoming Jews specifically and also letting them know there is room for empathy for them while supporting Palestinians.
It’s a complex issue. I think the Jewish who are uncomfortable at queer events because of the support for Palestine need to self reflect. But at the same time, I see nothing wrong with the events trying to meet them where they are at
Most Zionists in America are Christians by far. Also the definition of “Zionists” are so broad.. there are Jewish people who call themselves Zionist who want a 1ss and just think that Zionism means Jewish self determination. These people are misinformed but I think that adds a layer of fuzziness to the analysis of how many Zionists are Jews and how many Jews are Zionist
I see. Yes- Zionists and Anti-Zionist define zionism differently. By both self-definitions I am an anti-zionist zionist 🫠. I actually think that the word Zionism being an amorphous thing is a huge part of the vitriol- there are a lot of people in the middle who dont know they basically agree on 60-70% of things but are labeling themselves differently, and then making assumptions about “the other side”.
Oh I totally agree with you. I feel like I’m not being clear in most of my comments on this thread and it’s rubbing people the wrong way.. but I also am totally against Zionism and do not agree it’s an amorphous thing. I just think that there are Jewish people that are less politically informed at the moment but probably would get to where we are too
I mean if they put out a third statement acknowledging the loss of Palestinian lives on October 7 (around 1600) and how the delay in acknowledging those deaths caused harm to the Palestinian community, then I can fuck with it.
haven’t they been acknowledging palestinian deaths this entire time for 8 months, i don’t rly follow this page so maybe im wrong but this statement seems like it’s coming from an org who has consistently been pro palestine and anti genocide but not mentioned jews or 10/7 at all. Idk why they would have to bring that up if that’s what the majority of their activism has been on this entire time
They're probably talking about the Palestinian in Gaza since October 8, not the deaths before. That's my point. Israel has consistently been the oppressor in the region.
It’s a march for dykes- the only requirement is you identify as a lesbian, at least per their mission statement, but in practice they are staunchly very left. This year the theme is marching against genocide. As most lesbian jews are against the genocide I assume but fall everywhere on the political spectrum from zionist to anti, they have been asking if they were welcome and safe to march this year, hence the statement.
It just reeks of someone who rlly not been keeping up. I mean im sorry, but we are at month 9 of genocide. The conversation is not the same as oct 8, not that this shouldve been the convo then either if you were keeping up with Palestine before then but it wouldve made a little more sense, at least
and 34k deaths are such a crazy lowball, the genocide made it impossible to continue counting deaths “officially” but actual estimates that include starvation, death under rubble, & mssing presumed dead, now have it between 190k-500k
also… “jewish” and “zionist” are not interchangeable. jewish ZIONISTS were concerned for their safety… ok that’s not all jewish people dude
u can’t blame for using 34k number, ur right its 100% more than that at this point but those r the official numbers and saying any other number would just be guesstimating at this point. They could have just said countless or something but it’s not their fault those r the official numbers
It's completely predictable that an idpol group would at least at times slip into liberal ideology. The other statements by this group seem more anti-imperialist, which is great.
Destroying the patriarchy because non hetero people exist,, or because it's used to reproduce capitalist imperialism. Which do you prefer?
Idk…this post aside, I’m more interested in how an entire committee missed this post? The retraction statement makes it seem like some Zionists infiltrators broke in and sneak posted late at night while using the Dyke March instagram page. 🙄. I was told by someone on the committee that this was discussed over a course of a series of subcommittee meetings and even brought up in their general meetings- and that folks either ignored it or were okay with it until after the backlash. Smh. It seems like whoever wrote this apology is trying to pass off their responsibility to other people. But again… their organization has a history of doing that. I am really interested in knowing who started stalking and releasing committee member’s names and addresses online?!? Those TikTok live comments were WILD.
I hate the way zionist supporters are blowing claims of antisemitism out of proportion. Not only is it done to minimize or hide anti-Palestinian trauma like these:
It's nice to some extent, but they are taking it face value the claim that there is rising anti-semitism in the world. They're taking the ADL and hoax reports as real incidents. There's not rising anti-Semitism unless you're including Zionist and Israeli actions, which I consider antisemitism in the extreme.
A senseless loss of Jewish life not mentioned was Israel's Hannibal Directive, killing their own people. Hamas and other Palestinians undoubtedly killed civilians on October 7th but we have no idea if they caused the majority of deaths or if Israel did. What's also not stated here is that October 7th was also Palestinians breaking out of their concentration camp and killing the guards of that concentration camp (security forces, armed settlers and military), and that is absolutely supported and respected by international law and morality.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jun 29 '24
I think their statement was thoughtful - BUT I'm also very sick and tired of seeing pro-Israel activists attempt to (and often succeed in) centering the conversation around Jewish safety.
Let's be clear - that safety matters BUT it's not anti-Zionist or even post-Zionist Jews who are sounding the alarm. It's pro-Israel ideologues and activists who are fixated on responding to the mere EXISTENCE of Palestinian identity in American society with concern-trolling about 'safety'.
In that context (ie pro-Israel activism attempting to criminalize Palestinian existence in the court of public opinion), this does seem like 'All Lives Matter' type obfuscation.
So that is why I'm focused on centering Palestinian lives above these claims of 'safety' - because the latter is coming from pro-Israel activists in what I believe is a cynical attempt to criminalize Palestinian-ness.
I want to point out that the ADL's data on antisemitism is inflated because they intentionally conflate pro-Palestine messaging and criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
There is a rise of antisemitic attacks in the UK. There is an ever-present threat from far-right antisemitism.
But the accusation of antisemitism on the Left is frequently overblown and exaggerated by pro-Israel extremists.