NYC Dyke March Drama

[u/Ok_Item_3313]

The NYC Dyke March is being boycotted by many other organizations including Act Up NYC for putting out and subsequently deleting this statement. Thoughts?

Imma be real I don't really think this statement is bad at all, but I understand that others have read it as "all lives matter"-ing the genocide in Gaza. Would love to hear more takes.

[u/[deleted]]

This is not all lives mattering. People were killed. If they never addressed the deaths in October when it happened, it is appropriate to mention now. If they consistently mentioned hostages and Israelis over Palestinians that would be different. I think it's really sad that mentioning any Jewish death is offensive to people. But I also think it's very odd that there was not any statement about any of this until now, which isn't common for an LGBT institution. This is especially true because of how there is such high involvement of LGBT folks in activism for Palestine. This reminds me of when dyke marches in Canada used to ban pride flags with Stars of David on them. Is it necessary? Not at all. That's not what an Israeli flag is.

[u/theapplekid → u/[deleted]]

I don't think there's anything wrong with mentioning the Jewish deaths from October 7, but weren't like 900-1100 of the ~2800 people who died that day Jewish?

I think erasing the deaths of all the others to center the deaths of privileged group is a problem

[u/doesntaffrayed → u/theapplekid]

2800?

Are you counting Hamas losses as well?

Israeli lost 1100, two thirds Jewish and foreign civilians, the remaining were Israeli military.

[u/theapplekid → u/doesntaffrayed]

If you're going to count IOF deaths then absolutely I'm going to count the deaths of the Palestinian resistance that day, yeah. Not just "Hamas" but a number of other groups.

If you're just looking at civilians and consider ~700 died, compared to ~1600 Gazan resistance, it kind of changes the calculus on how you look at the day (and that ~700 number includes foreign nationals and non-Jews).

And that's not including deaths of other Palestinians from that same day who hadn't breached the walls of the areas they were confined to (people in West Bank and Gaza).

The statement by the Dyke march centering the deaths of Jews on October 7 is really leaving a lot out.

[u/Glad-Degree-4270 → u/theapplekid]

Fair points all around.

The Israeli military are valid targets for soldiers of Hamas (& other groups) and vice versa.

Definitely worth it to separate out the civilian death toll from the active military one.

[u/theapplekid → u/doesntaffrayed]

two thirds Jewish and foreign civilians, the remaining were Israeli military.

You mean two thirds were not actively serving in IOF. Of that two thirds, there were Muslims, Christians, and foreign nationals. They weren't all Jewish as statements like the one above would have us believe

[u/Glad-Degree-4270 → u/theapplekid]

Reservists, religiously exempted non military members, retired elderly, and “future conscripts” (aka children) are not valid military targets under most war crime definitions.

America has a draft on file, with your logic every male American is a “potential draftee” and valid military target.

[u/theapplekid → u/Glad-Degree-4270]

First of all I'm not saying anyone is a "valid military target". I don't know where you got that idea.

I'm saying almost 400 hundred of the Israelis killed on October 7 were actively serving IDF. Of the remaining casualties who were not militarized Palestinian resistance, there were still many non-Jews and non-Israelis.

[u/Glad-Degree-4270 → u/theapplekid]

Okay so here’s what I was going to say until I reread your statement and caught what I had misunderstood on your point :

“You said “not actively serving”. I’ve seen some otherwise pretty reasonable people claim that Israeli civilian is an oxymoron due to conscription. They say that civilians within the ‘67 borders who have completely retired from the military, including the elderly, may re-enter service, or that children are future soldiers. Some claim all such people are foreign settler colonists.”

So I thought you were going that way.

However, on a reread it seems like all you were doing was ensuring that we not forget the non-Jewish civilians of Israel, which is certainly something that needs to be brought up. So I commend you for doing so, and I apologize for the misunderstanding stemming from my inability to fully comprehend your statement on first read.

[u/theapplekid → u/Glad-Degree-4270]

No worries, I appreciate your willingness to challenge your initial impressions of what I was saying. I'm not really sure how to express this more clearly; people seem to have an easier time analyzing the conflict at a very superficial level, and then it becomes "Hamas" and "Israeli Jews" on October 7, when those were only some of the actors and victims on that day.