NYC Dyke March Drama

[u/Ok_Item_3313]

The NYC Dyke March is being boycotted by many other organizations including Act Up NYC for putting out and subsequently deleting this statement. Thoughts?

Imma be real I don't really think this statement is bad at all, but I understand that others have read it as "all lives matter"-ing the genocide in Gaza. Would love to hear more takes.

[u/cupcakefascism]

Excellently put. A friend recently accused me of having no empathy for Jewish suffering because I don’t talk about it in my activism and I was trying to explain that as Jewish suffering has so often been used to obscure Palestinian suffering, it feels grotesque to keep going on about it in the current context.

[u/PossibleDeer4613 → u/cupcakefascism]

A lot of these posts seem to think jews concerned about antisemitism are making things up. There was an 1300% rise in antisemitic hatecrimes in the uk in 2023 according to the police. Jews have every right to discuss it and instead of pro-palestine spaces dismissing all of it as bad faith attempts to decenter palestine it would behoove them to take it seriously- educate themselves, adopt a definition of antisemitism other than “there are jews here therefore antisemitism cannot exist” and actually bolster their cause as free from antisemitism with actual receipts. It would be good for the cause and more jews would march.

[u/cupcakefascism → u/PossibleDeer4613]

Tearing down hostage posters is considered an antisemitic hate crime according to the Met Police, so I won’t be taking those figures particularly seriously.

I don’t think all the accusations are bad faith, though a huge number are. A large number of those that aren’t are still indicative of a mindset that believes pro-Palestine activism should somehow be subject to Jewish approval and call anything that makes them uncomfortable, e.g. support for Palestinian armed resistance, calling for the dismantling of Israel, antisemitic. One flounced out of a meeting because of a t-shirt I (a Jew) was wearing which had been designed by a Jewish artist.

That doesn’t mean antisemitism doesn’t exist - I’ve had maybe less than 10 instances, limited to dodgy comments, in pro-Palestine spaces since last year. All of which I shut down and moved on and that was that.

Not getting involved in action against one of the most horrific crimes in recent memory because of a pre-occupation that there might be a chance of something that might, at most, make you feel upset and uncomfortable is as I said, grotesque. And the people that keep going on about it expose themselves for the self-absorbed navel-gazers that they are.

[u/PossibleDeer4613 → u/cupcakefascism]

I think you are making very sweeping assumptions based on your personal experience and your very tailored algorithm about how much truly wild and vile antisemitism is going on and making a lot of assumptions about other jews. Everyone is seriously underestimating their algorithm in their opinion of “antisemitism is a problem”. There is tons of horrifying stuff and its gone past zionists to jews in general that your algorithm isnt showing you. I wonder if there is a level at which the incidents have to grow to for fellow anti-zionists to stop dismissing it and actually look at it. 500% increase? 3000% increase? Murders? It’s a scary thought. And I know tons of jews silently donating to palestinian causes and not going to protests. I would have a little more faith in our tribe before you lump jews into such distinct groups.

[u/cupcakefascism → u/PossibleDeer4613]

I’ve been involved in pro-Palestine activism for the past 2 decades and have access to a search engine. I also follow UK Jewish news organisations really closely. Unfortunately they’re not reporting on the ‘tonnes of horrifying stuff’ you seem to be privy to, they’re still bleating about hate marches and Corbyn. I’m also sure that the worst incidents, whatever they are, aren’t coming from pro-Palestine activism which is what we’re talking about.

It’s not about numbers. A 3000% increase in people calling the police because they saw a Palestinian flag - something that happpened constantly post Oct 7th where I am, a photo of a flag in someone’s window would be shared in local Jewish/Israeli WhatsApp groups & lots of people would call the police & CST - means nothing. But it would have to get a hell of a lot worse for me to even consider prioritising it when I’m watching videos of Palestinian kids purposefully being torn to shreds.

As for my faith in Jews, I only referred to the ones you brought up. Those still handwringing ‘but won’t somebody think of the Jews?!’ while our mainstream organisations cheer on the brutal extermination of an entire people. Silently donating when you know that perversely, your voice as a Jew is taken so much more seriously than that of a Palestinian is less than the bare minimum. On the other hand, some of the bravest, most steadfast, most committed non-Palestinian anti-Zionists I know are Jewish and they make me deeply proud every single day.

Have you ever considered that it might actually be your tailored algorithm that’s leading you to have an overblown idea of how bad things are? Leading you to make assumptions about other Jews in this thread? To be scared, when you really have no reason to be?

[u/PossibleDeer4613 → u/cupcakefascism]

So you are…. Proving my point… that you haven’t seen the vile stuff… because it hasn’t reached you… and are making generalizations based on the sham cases of antisemitism that you have seen that less “moral” jews than you are scared for no reason.

Ya I agree I figured thats what was happening, if you’ll recall ✨

And I do consider the algorithm all the time! Thats why I bring it up. Helps me have more faith in humanity when they are being very dismissive of horrible things its cause they havent seen it. I also make efforts to not be in an echo chamber- my opinions on this don’t fall neatly into the way others tell me I am supposed to think about everything. As you see.

[u/cupcakefascism → u/PossibleDeer4613]

Lol no, you’re missing the point but it’s ok I’ll spell it out for you. ✨

I’m saying that I deeply, fundamentally disagree that the current level/incidents of antisemitism in the UK are so ‘vile and horrifying’ that they warrant taking up space in pro-Palestine spaces & organising.

That doesn’t mean I’m not aware of them as you keep insisting, it means I think they are no where near serious enough to distract from a genocide. The sham case I described was to make the point that numbers are meaningless, not that all cases are like that.

I mean, the arguments you’ve been making do in fact fit neatly into what mainstream Jewish organisations are telling me I’m supposed to think, so it’s amusing that you seem to see yourself as somehow above being influenced by echo chambers.

[u/PossibleDeer4613 → u/cupcakefascism]

Lol a 12 year old just got gang raped for being jewish and you’re telling me nothing is vile. But I must be influenced by Israeli propaganda to think maybe some antisemitism is growing!You arent going to convince me that holding multiple truths at once is somehow immoral or bad for Palestinians.

[u/cupcakefascism → u/PossibleDeer4613]

Wait you were talking about the UK, are we suddenly in France?

Also, did you actually read the point I’ve been making? Saying it is not the job of pro-Palestine spaces/acrivists/organisers to spend the meagre resources they have on constantly reassuring Jews =/ saying antisemitism isn’t bad, doesn’t exist, or shouldn’t be tackled full stop. No one’s stopping you doing that, they’re rightly refusing to let it distract from a genocide.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything, you’re one who came into the comment thread attempting that. I’m explaining my position to anyone else reading the thread.

Edit: I’m not downvoting you by the way.