r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Oct 16 '24
AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday
It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.
Please remember to pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate! Thanks!
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u/myownpersonallab Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
Fellow Jews, how do you fortify your soul against seeing actual antisemitism in Palestine liberation spaces? I keep seeing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and claims of being devil worshippers and it has only gotten worse this month. I have been called a Zionist shill for pointing it out. The argument that we don't want fascist white supremacist arguments in our liberation spaces is getting less and less effective. :( I am always met with.... well this is nothing compared to what Palestinians are going through.
And it's true. It's not.
I will stay involved no matter what. Palestine will be free in our lifetimes and I will not stand by. But generations of trauma in my blood is wearing away at my armor at the moment.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
I had a personal incident like this that made me feel really angry/frustrated/sad.
I'm glad I'm here in this space, where we can advocate on behalf of Palestinian human rights but also oppose genuine antisemitism, because this cause transcends all of that.
TBF though, I only see that kind of bigotry online. IRL, people are much more conscientious. Especially in organized activism.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 16 '24
TBF though, I only see that kind of bigotry online. IRL, people are much more conscientious. Especially in organized activism.
I really wish I had the same experience as you -- online I find it easy to dodge the antisemitism but IRL it seems it always finds me in leftist spaces (likely because that's mostly where I exist IRL, but still).
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u/Greatsayain Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
It should be as simple as "don't do this wrong thing while fighting for the right thing". Who cares that their wrong is smaller in magnitude than the wrong they are fighting. It would cost nothing to just refrain from antisemitism while helping Palestinians. I'm sorry I don't have anything more useful than that.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 16 '24
If I could add a tagalong on to this, what's the best way to start if you're afraid of the antisemitism in the movement? Every time I've tried reaching out to even start getting more involved I've bounced back from antisemitism -- I'm sensitive to it from previous experiences and my first instinct when faced with it is a strong urge to leave any situation where I encounter it.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 16 '24
Entryism, essentially. Start by building a local member-owned and member-run organization of like-minded Jews, and then operate collectively. This is essentially how Marxists had to operate in the DSA during its High Identity Politics days when any discussion of class relations in an allegedly socialist organization were met by Liberals screaming about "class reductionism", "Red-Brown alliances" and "Strasserism". In fact, it's how the Marxists in DSA still have to operate against the Democrat-party (hence: Capitalist henchmen) proxy groups of "Socialist Majority Caucus" and "Groundwork".
What you do is that collectively, you and your fellow anti-Zionist Jews work out and adopt a plan of action. You then execute the plan of action together, and periodically regroup to talk about how it's going. That would mean getting involved in the movement collectively, rather than individually. If I ever were to join JVP, this is how I would do so.
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u/Dis-Organizer Matzpen Oct 16 '24
As someone who is mostly DSA adjacent but has started (somewhat to my own chagrin) learning more about the internal politics, your description of how Marxists have to operate in DSA (and sounds like it used to be worse) and the way you describe groundwork and socialist majority caucus is so helpful and affirms what I’ve been picking up here and there
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u/Dis-Organizer Matzpen Oct 16 '24
I’ve got a specific question off of this. I generally let questionable rhetoric slide because I understand we’re witnessing genocide on our phones and it’s horrific, climate disasters are hitting us all more frequently, ongoing pandemic that’s being erased with more likely to come etc. Just everyone is on edge, people are being materially impacted by a lot, and a lot of antisemitism that I see on the left isn’t nefarious, more accidental?
Especially because I exist in some spaces with people “newer” to Palestine as an issue (where I tend to experience more of this sorta accidentally said something questionably antisemitic thing). My specific question is around the term “Zio.” I found out accidentally that a non Jewish friend who is in similar, overlapping but different spaces had a Jewish member of one of her groups bring it up in one group they’re in. People were very receptive learning that it’s used by neo-Nazis, David Duke, etc. Their story stuck out to me because I know people in one of the groups I’m in have definitely used it to refer to Zionists (and usually in the context of the IOF or someone committing an atrocity)
I’m sure there have been other similar moments but that’s been the one on my mind, a specific group where at least some members have used “Zio” before, to mean Zionists and likely without having the context—these are all real people I know and I’m not the only Jewish person in the space, but there is a range of knowledge and experience when it comes to Palestine, activism, and left politics more broadly.
Just curious if other people have been calling in their comrades and if so, what that looks like and where their “line” is
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 20 '24
I was introduced to "Zio" by Matt Lieb and Daniel Maté, and it's kind of obvious how you get there -- and not this "Oh no David Duke!!!11" tone policing dreck.
Look, if we cared what white supremacists thought and said we wouldn't use the term "Zionist", because when they use it, they use it to mean the K-word or in the sense of the "Elders of Zion". In fact, one has to do the same situational parsing to determine in either case, so "Zio" doesn't bother me.
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
I've almost entirely abandoned r/badhasbara because of this. As a disclaimer, the vast majority of the posts there are fine, but every once in a while there will be one or two that are fairly antisemitic that get a score of up-votes. Jews are European larpers, Zionists control the US government, excessive sarcastic usages of "that's antisemitic," stuff like that. It's 100% an echo chamber and any push back gets you down voted. That's the great thing about big tent ideologies. If you find one group that doesn't suit you, you're perfectly able to leave and find one that you fit in much better. For Jews, this sub is a thousand times more accepting and culturally/religiously relevant.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 20 '24
To be fair, there's a 1975 Memorandum of Understanding between Gerald Ford and Isaac Rabin that gives Israel veto powers over US diplomatic initiatives. I wish I were making this up.
Since you yourself brought up Bad Hasbara, I will simply say "Octopus Suit".
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Oct 20 '24
The only type of memorandums like this that I have seen refer specifically to peace accords between Israel and Egypt and Syria, where Henry Kissinger assured that the US would be on Israel's side. Considering that Egypt and Syria were full-blown members of the Soviet sphere of influence, it doesn't seem like they would have needed a lot of coaxing to take this stance. If there is some other agreement that I missed, I'd appreciate a bit more info to do some googling.
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u/angsty_geologist Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
I have been dealing with similar feelings. It’s difficult. I am lucky to have a small group of anti-Zionist Jewish friends with whom I can commiserate about all of this, which helps, though venting alone doesn’t really solve this problem.
I think trauma can really bring out the worst in people. This includes bigotry. I try to be conscientious of this when interacting with people who veer into ignorant, antisemitic talking points. A lot of the concerning comments I’ve seen/heard from other organizers and activists seem like they come from a place of deep pain and despair. Maybe it is not so dissimilar from the way Jewish Zionists essentially blame Palestinians for their own very real history of trauma. Reminding myself of this makes it easier to brush off hurtful, bigoted comments.
I do believe that one of Israel’s “goals” with their ongoing genocide in Palestine (and military aggression across the board) is to increase antisemitism against Jews in the diaspora. I am pretty sure the Israeli government is hoping that diaspora Jews will settle in Israel to escape said antisemitism, helping Israel maintain a Jewish majority well into the future. So, in some way, calling out antisemitism in the Palestine liberation movement (and in broader society IN GENERAL) is a way to resist Israel’s agenda. I try to remind people of this when I hear antisemitic canards repeated uncritically. It doesn’t always work, but I try nonetheless.
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Oct 16 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 16 '24
How do JOC members feel about r/jewish?
I just had a lurk there, and... it's like stepping out onto a different planet. Up is down, black is white, and of course anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism.
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u/Correct_Brilliant435 Oct 16 '24
It's a case of crowdsourcing the superego -- a place to go to get approval for what some of them probably realize are morally dubious (at least) opinions. The echo chamber effect likely makes some of them feel better -- they can't be a bad person if others agree with them, right?
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u/Dis-Organizer Matzpen Oct 16 '24
At this point even the main Jewish left sub feels like a different reality, feels like a number of right wingers who feel bad that that’s what they are. I’m always surprised when a post from them shows up on my feed but I always know I’ll be disappointed
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 18 '24
Wait, what’s the main Jewish left sub? I thought this was it.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 16 '24
It is full of vomit, lashon hara, and avodah zara.
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Oct 16 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
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Oct 16 '24
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
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u/Greatsayain Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
This might be easy too niche but as it was Yom Kippur recently I was reading the temple service for Yom Kippur in the machzor. The Kohen gadol (high preist) has to sprinkle blood on the.ark cover. He has to do this every year. Wouldn't the ark cover become smelly and disgusting after just a couple years. And you can't change the ark cover, because the high priest is barely lowed in the room with the ark with the cover in and a cloud of incense. Changing the cover would mean exposing the ark.
He also has to leave his linen clothes in the room beside the ark room when he done, never to be worn again. He's the only one allowed in that room too. So wouldn't that room become a giant pile of linen clothes after a few years. This ceremony just becomes a huge problem after a couple years unless I'm missing something. I know this is way more detailed than what usually gets asked here but I was hoping someone might know.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 16 '24
I would be very surprised if the answer isn't in the Gemara.
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u/Nyk_Is_In Jewish Oct 16 '24
I have a question. Some people are refusing to vote for Kamala Harris because Kamala = genocide= bad. But doesn’t this essentially pave the way for Trump to return to office, given that the Republican Party isn’t as divided as the Democrats? And if Trump wins, wouldn’t that obviously lead to even more Genocide? As well as harm all around.
I’m asking because many of my pro-Palestinian friends are voting third-party out of anger. While I believe that by 2028 we’ll likely have a stronger third-party system, and more people are calling for it now than ever, it feels like it's too late for that in this election. Why make things worse just because we’re upset? The U.S. has been involved in harmful genocidal actions globally for a long time, and I’m glad people are finally waking up to it. But right now, we seem disorganized and late to the game. In this moment, I believe the smartest and most ethical choice is to vote for Kamala.
What do you think?
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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
Idk my thought is that when we vote as Americans we vote for the rest of the world because our government terrorizes it. The USA might have done genocide before, but this specific genocide has overwhelmingly low approval domestically, is being televised to our phones, and has been flaunted by our politicians. I think the long term consequences of showing our politicians that they can run as "liberal", commit genocide, and still win will be worse than even project 2025.
All democrats do is point to the other guy and say "he's worse" despite the fact that they conduct themselves the same way, and then the expect to win. It seems like it has incentivized the problem.
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u/Nyk_Is_In Jewish Oct 16 '24
I'm not worried about project 2025. I'm trans, it sucks, but I'm worried about war. I'm worried that trump being there genuinely means that many more will die in palestine. For what? So we can say - see, we don't support genocide as Americans by electing someone more unhinged to commit more genocide?
Let's say you're correct. The Dems learn their lesson and are like ok - when we run again we won't be supporting isreal. That's 4 years away. Millions can die in that time span.
And no the two are not the same. The systems we have in place are fragile, not as stable as ppl like to assume and people worked and died to put a safer system there. Saying they are both the same is saying it's pointless to vote because why? They are both the same.
Dismantling everything and burning it all down will just make it harder to get to where we need to go.
My take. Vote for Kamala. Know it's still awful. Continue to organize and make it better. If we're organized we have so much power. It'll be more difficult to organize if we have less resources because we have someone unhinged reversing our progress and system s.
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u/allneonunlike Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
While I’m sure the genocide and larger regional war under Trump will feature a lot of his classic disgusting rhetoric and corruption, like the land grants in the West Bank and Gaza that he’s already drawn up for Jared Kushner, both parties support the escalation of regional war, and are setting up the entry of American troops to fight it. That’s why Harris has been publicly flaunting the support of monsters from the GWB era, like Alberto Gonzalez and Dick Cheney, that’s why she’s going on TV talking about Iran having American blood on their hands, that’s why Tim Walz endorsed the Greater Israel project at the vice presidential debate.
What we’re seeing right now is the resurgence of a longtime (delusional, failed) American foreign policy plan to conquer the entire Middle East and turn it into a plantation of oil-producing vassal states, with Israel as our colonial administrator. There are arguments for and against a Harris vote as harm reduction, but there’s no electoral path that doesn’t lead to war with Iran. We’re going to be sending troops to fight the war for Greater Israel no matter what.
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u/uu_xx_me Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
if you live in a swing state, you’re probably right. but for the vast majority of us, voting really doesn’t make much of a difference. i live in a solidly blue state and am voting socialist (claudia de la cruz and karina garcia) because i feel like the most value i can have with my vote is to refuse to support the democratic party funding genocide and show them what values i care about
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious Oct 16 '24
Depends. I voted for Jill Stein in 2016 because I thought my vote didn't matter, and I was shocked to find out that my state, one of the most liberal, only went for Hillary by like 60%.
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u/uu_xx_me Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
10% is a massive amount in electoral politics
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious Oct 16 '24
Maybe, but it's still not as much as you think.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 16 '24
What you're posing as your conclusions are not at all obvious, because there is a bipartisan consensus in favor of genocide. I am sick of these liberal talking points because they keep presenting slave owners as abolitionists.
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Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious Oct 16 '24
Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this, but I see no place to ask questions in the other pro Palestine places on reddit, my posts have been removed when I try, and IG isn't a great place to ask questions, so I'm asking this here. I have a question about Bernie Sanders Joint Resolution of Disapproval to Stop Arming Israel. This may show my ignorance about the US gov't, but I have been calling my senators about it, and I know there is the option to co-sponsor it, but there is an option to simply vote yes on it, correct? So when I call my senators, the bare minimum I should be asking for is a yes vote on this, right?
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u/Scatman_Crothers Non-Jewish Ally Oct 16 '24
I’m a non-Jew who grew up in a heavily Jewish community with mostly Jewish friends where zionism was the default, and I’m trying to understand different perspectives and sort out where I stand as the current conflict becomes more troubling by the day. Please forgive me for any ignorance or if I don’t express myself well, I’m here to learn.
My question is for anti-zionist Jews, at a very practical level, what does your ideal long term solution look like? Not so much the process of untying the gordian knot of the current conflict and political situation, but what is an end state that you view as both just and viable in an ongoing way?
A one state solution with both Israelis and Palestinians having equal rights? If so how could that be stable and not lead to hyperpolarization and possible destablization when there are a roughly similar number of Israeli Jews and Palestinians living in the 1948 borders and occupied territories? It seems like the parliament of such a country would likely be the Israeli coalition vs the Palestinian coalition, and whichever was in power at a given time would punish the other group.
Is there any sort of two state solution that is either not explicity zionist or that you could find acceptable?
A new Jewish diaspora? If so where do Israeli Jews go? Do you believe Jews would be safe in large numbers anywhere outside of Israel in its current or a reconstituted form, or the United States, given no other country hosts more than 3% of Jews globally?
When I backpacked Europe about a decade ago with a Jewish friend it made an impression on me how every synagogue we visited was a fortress of bulletproof glass, high metal gates, and men with machine guns. And a disappointing amount of anti-semitism seeped out in some of our interactions with Europeans. That’s made me skeptical of such a solution, but I’m sure many here are more knowledgeable on the matter than I am from my anecdotal experience.
Any other solutions that I haven’t mentioned?
Thank you
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Oct 17 '24
Belgium. Israelis stay on their side, Palestinians stay on their side, nobody speaks the same language, no government ever gets formed, and yet everyone is strangely nationalistic for their Frankenstein of a country.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 20 '24
When I backpacked Europe about a decade ago with a Jewish friend it made an impression on me how every synagogue we visited was a fortress of bulletproof glass, high metal gates, and men with machine guns. And a disappointing amount of anti-semitism seeped out in some of our interactions with Europeans. That’s made me skeptical of such a solution, but I’m sure many here are more knowledgeable on the matter than I am from my anecdotal experience.
I would encourage you not to extrapolate to the world from the particularly virulent antisemitism inherent to Christianity. It has been my experience that Europeans, especially of the older generations, are exceptionally racist -- French Catholics considering Polish Catholics to be subhuman, that sort of thing.
As for the Israelis? Well, the trouble with Israelis is the IDF -- imagine if every Boer in 1980s South Africa were an AWB member and you have an appreciation of the degree of problem we have in de-Zionizing "Israel". I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are willing members of a genocidal criminal organization, and I would personally have no problem stripping them of all political rights for the rest of their lives, or until the new government of Palestine can reeducate them and admit them to a free civil society to which they are currently unsuitable.
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u/Electrical-Wrap-3923 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 17 '24
If you live in a deep-red or deep-blue state, which third party candidate would you vote for, since I imagine you’re not voting for either Trump or Harris. (The dynamics are obviously different than voting in a swing state).
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u/finiteloop72 Ashkenazi Oct 17 '24
I’m in a deep-blue state. I don’t know if I can vote for any of them. I don’t like any of the candidates, mainstream or third party. I guess Jill Stein would be the closest to my views if I absolutely had to pick one.
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Oct 19 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 19 '24
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u/El_Moustasho Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
Since Israel keeps stealing food from indigenous people and calling it their own, what are some actual Jewish foods and what's your favorite.
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Oct 17 '24
Speaking only from my Ashkenazi experience: challah, matzah ball soup, cholent, knishes, rugelach and tsimmes are some of my favorites/most comforting foods.
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Oct 17 '24
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Oct 17 '24
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u/DO_MD Palestinian Oct 16 '24
I have a question! How do you guys feel about your own personal connection to the country of (or land of) Israel?
My girlfriend is American and Jewish raised Zionist but is slowly changing her mind and her ways but has this almost unbreakable connection to Israel. Even when I criticize Israel she still can’t help but shut down and has trouble criticizing them as well. I’m curious how you all deal with this connection to the land, and if there’s a feasible conversation to have with her that may help her see this as just a country? (If that’s even the right way to go about it)
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u/rusaluchkaa Ashkenazi Oct 16 '24
if she likes reading, edward saïd's the question of palestine lays out all the ways israel is a colonial/settler state that cannot continue, while still being very empathetic to jews and our connection to that land. i have found that actual books and scholarly work in general are a lot better about that than random people's social media posts
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 16 '24
TLDR: The best person to talk to her about this is another antizionist Jew, if you can find one local willing to have the conversation with her.
Personally I have a huge line between my connection to the state of Israel ("Medinat Yisrael") and the land of Israel ("Eretz Yisrael"). I am part of the capital-D Diaspora because my people were exiled out of the land of Israel, but the state of Israel is a modern invention. What helps a lot is that the OG Zionists of the early 19th and 20th centuries even agreed with this stance, having that separation in their mind. The state's goals aren't to be a continuation of the ancient kingdom/country from which we were exiled, and originally there was a debate about where on the planet to even create it, with multiple non-Israel options debated.
There are probably 2 main factors that complicate her relationship with the state, at least based on my own complications and the ones I've talked with other fellow Jews (Zionist or non):
- Israel advertises itself as "the Jewish State" and as "the return of the Jewish People to their homeland". The propaganda runs deep in Zionist Jewish circles to connect Jewishness and Israel. The state capitalizes on our yearning for the land of Israel to make the pivot to yearning for the state of Israel. It is always difficult to criticize your homeland's existence, and the state has done its best to wear the cloak of our culture's homeland since its inception.
- Most Jews have at least some family in Israel, because their family moved there recently, extended family trees, or even because their families started in Israel and then left. It is always difficult and uncomfortable to say the people firing missiles at your family, trapping them in bomb shelters or making them leave their homes entirely have a point.
Getting through on the first point requires not only someone who understands the nuances of Jewish culture's interactions with Zionism, but someone whose understanding she trusts. Its way too easy for her to say "you're not a Jew, you don't understand" even to a gentile who has done years of research on this topic, because its hard to think someone outside your experience can understand it. It needs a full understanding of her culture and where she's coming from, as well as a place where she can feel comfortable accepting that this full understanding exists.
The second point requires being able to simultaneously hold sympathy for Israelis while still thinking Israel is wrong, and maintaining that sympathy throughout the entire conversation -- even if that sympathy is challenging, and even if that conversation lasts multiple days/weeks/months. Maintaining that sympathy for such a long amount of time is difficult if it doesn't come at least somewhat naturally, which is why I'd recommend not being the one to try here -- especially since, given your background, you have every right to not maintain sympathy for your historic oppressors. It will always be more difficult for an Ashkenazi Jew to have the ability necessary to truly sympathize with the Dresden Bombings, or a Korean/Chinese person to sympathize with Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and I don't think its right to expect you to even if its necessary in the conversation.
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u/DO_MD Palestinian Oct 16 '24
Okay you’re the third reply I’ve gotten to my question and all 3 so far have been nothing short of eloquent, empathetic, and logical and I appreciate you so much for your response. I’m quite honestly so excited for this next phase of our conversation. I’m going to share these sentiments with her. Thank you!!
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 16 '24
Do lmk if you need any more help! I'm sure you'd be able to find someone here willing to talk to her in a more Jew-on-Jew way if you need. I know one of the things I find very fulfilling is talking with Zionists to get them to budge, even a little bit, off of their most militant positions.
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u/DO_MD Palestinian Oct 16 '24
I really appreciate that. If she is ready and willing to do so I will undoubtedly reach out to this community to find someone happy to talk to her. Thank you so much
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u/myownpersonallab Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
This is a great question. It's complex. For context, I am a SWANA Jew.
Judaism as a religion is tied to the harvest cycles of the land. I see a lot of ancient wisdom about existing in the land itself that has been passed down. I cherish it as a reminder that I should strive to connect with whatever land I am living on in the same way. Support the indigenous peoples of the land by paying land tax, and learn from them. Of course, that ancient connection, imo, is still not Zionistic. It does not give Jews the right to occupy the land, displace and murder the people, and mass produce on it in a capitalistic way. It just means there is ancient history there. As there is for so many religions.
My theory is the only way past this is to treat this as brainwashing that is causing us to dehumanize ourselves and others.
I had a very Zionist early education because my grandparents were displaced from their country of origin when Israel was founded. I knew what genocide and displacement was before pre-school. I heard countless stories growing up about how unsafe it is for Jews. How any country can displace you at any moment. Because the reality is it DID happen to them. It wasn't Hasbara. Their history is real. And Zionists manipulate that real history by putting you in a fear state and present genocidal nation states as the answer. You are taught that Israel is your only savior. Imagine being a scared child and receiving a hug. Israel was essentially that hug for us.
So some parts of me do shut down when I hear criticisms of the state of Israel. But this shut down is the result of years of brainwashing, and I am an adult now who has her own thoughts and feelings. When I enter my fearful/traumatized state, I am extra kind to myself. I meet my inner child where she is at. the one who knew what genocides were before she was in school. I remind her that she is safe. She's at home, in her bed, working, cuddling with a cat. This is just the emotional self-regulation I need to do as an adult because I cannot be like my ancestors and put my trauma on other people.
But you can try and unpack what it is about her experience with Israel that keeps her connected. No matter how glossily it gets painted initially ("ancestral homeland" or whatever), the answer without fault usually ends up being fear of genocide and displacement. In our modern day with so many Jews waking up, it's fear of ostracization from the Jewish community.
For me as a person, the number one thing that makes me feel safe enough to pop off in my criticism around others is: knowing that this person will call out real antisemitism when it happens, and being vocal about the genocides and displacements their nation states carried out. I will never feel safe to criticize and shift my views if someone is not vocal about the genocides and displacements their own countries commit (for example, pro-Palestine yet pro-Erdogan people). Why that is, I don't know. I think it feels like antisemitism to me, but I haven't unpacked that deeply enough to know if that's really what it is.
I'm not sure what it will be for your girlfriend, but curiosity is a good place to start.
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u/DO_MD Palestinian Oct 16 '24
You know, this was so well-said, I want to just show her this exact comment and have her read it. That was perfect. Thank you for making that connection for me!
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u/myownpersonallab Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 16 '24
Overjoyed to hear this. The fact that she is questioning gives me hope. It took me 4 years to go from Zionist to anti-Zionist, but once you see things you can't unsee them. Make sure you take care of yourself in this process too you do not have to do all this work. Perhaps she can get involved with an organization like IfNotNow and meet other Jews who are questioning. Wishing you and your family safety, love, life, and freedom.
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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Oct 16 '24
I think part of the issue is that most Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrachi, ethnically Jewish) have ancestry in Palestine and its the last place many associate with not being oppressed or marginalized. So having a state there not only feels like going back from exile but also feels like the only life-line in world that frequently has periods of tolerance of Jews that ends in massive death and destruction. If the state isn't "Jewish" that means the non Jewish people might decide to not allow refuge to Jews when it's needed. But just because she feels like this doesn't mean Zionism is acceptable, being oppressed doesn't give you the right to do genocide or ethnic cleansing.
I find it helpful to remember that being against Zionism isn't a denial of you ethnicity or heritage or connection to the land (however far removed). It is being against creating an indigenous population by oppressing, displacing, and creating a government that excludes them over top of their homes. Jews have moved back to Levant for centuries, some Jews didn't even live outside of it for very long. But Zionism took that option from us, because now "moving back" becomes being a settler. Just another reason to hate the Zionist state.
(Sorry I'm typing this in my phone and so it's not the most coherent.)
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u/DO_MD Palestinian Oct 16 '24
Love this response! Thank you. Definitely an amazing new way to look at things. I appreciate it and your time to explain it
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist Oct 16 '24
I yearn for the land, but I realise this is romanticised and constructed. I don’t consider it my ‘ancestral homeland’ or consider myself ‘indigenous’. Such things are meaningless after millennia. I feel no connection to the state or the people.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Oct 16 '24
How do you guys feel about your own personal connection to the country of (or land of) Israel
There was never a connection for me. Even before I stopped being religious and (unrelated) became increasingly anti-Zionist, I never cared about the land, wanted to live there, or anything like that. From a religious perspective, I never even noticed any of the prayers Zionists often (mis)use to ground their ideological connection to the territory, even though I know the liturgy nearly by heart. They were just words someone else wrote and I thought I had to read, not anything I personally cared about. If anything, when I sort of believed in that stuff, I hoped the messiah would not come in my lifetime.
With that said I do have family there and I care about them and their safety. I also have Palestinian friends who live within, or have family within, 48 and I was worried about them too.
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u/Electrical-Wrap-3923 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 17 '24
Which fandoms are very Zionist? Which fandoms are very anti-Zionist?
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u/flensingflenser LGBTQ Jew Oct 22 '24
Personally I've never been in a fandom where Israel came up at all, with the exception of a Facebook group for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend that I quietly left because of occasional Zionism.
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Oct 16 '24
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Oct 16 '24
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Oct 16 '24
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Oct 17 '24
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 20 '24
What's your definition of zionism? I often see the statement that zionism just means "jews deserve to be safe and have autonomy in their homeland", but I think that's too vague a term. I and most people who are educated on Palestinian liberation define it as support for the modern state of Israel, or the belief that there should be a modern nation state in historic Israel.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 20 '24
The political project to establish a colonial "homeland for the Jewish race" in historical Palestine.
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24
When I was riding the train back from a protest holding my sign on my lap saying my solidarity with the Palestinians, a woman told me she had a video of I think it was Hezbollah putting babies into ovens and asked if I wanted to watch it. I declined to watch it, and I told her Israel has killed thousands more children and babies than Hezbollah, but she really emphasized how pure evil putting a baby into an oven was and I didn't really know what to say, because I didn't even know if the video was real, and I get easily tongue-tied. So my question is does anyone know what she's talking about? Is this a real thing? Even if Hezbollah did do that, it doesn’t justify genocide.
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Oct 24 '24
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Oct 24 '24
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u/quan_tumm Non-Jewish Ally Oct 16 '24
I'm relatively new here, how about a simple, wholesome question. Favorite food?