r/JewsOfConscience • u/Jche98 Jewish Anti-Zionist • May 07 '24
Discussion Feeling tokenised on this sub
I've been getting the impression lately that so much of this sub is becoming posts like "as jews of conscience, what do you think of X?" or "as real jews who believe in real judaism, what do you think of Y?" These questions are from non-jews. I appreciate non-jewish allies taking part in this sub but lately it's feeling that it's just people trying to paint us as "the good jews". This sub is about being jewish and anti-Zionist and the struggles that come with that. It's not a sub for us to parade around claiming to be the "true jews" or for people to parade us around like that. We are jewish and we oppose Zionism but the Zionist jews are also jewish. We're no less or more jewish than they are. And we're not here to justify judaism in the face of Zionism. There are a million (very important) subs where there is general discussion about Palestine and the genocide in Gaza. But I feel like this sub should be something for us.
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u/MenieresMe Non-Jewish Ally May 07 '24
I try not to post in here much, as an ally, even if I want to weigh in. This is your place. Just here to passively learn from discussion
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u/Wereking2 Non-Jewish Ally May 07 '24
Yep I usually just lurk, upvote or add a comment here or there.
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May 07 '24
Me too. I like to see the range of viewpoints, I read posts here, jewishleft, judaism, Jewish etc.
It'd be useful to require non Jews to have flairs though so we can know when a non Jewish person is commenting.
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May 07 '24
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u/vorobyevites Jewish May 07 '24
pretty sure you can edit your flair! at least that's what i did. i don't know if mine is showing up rn. the "Non-Jewish Ally" flair is the one you can edit :)
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u/DevelopmentMediocre6 Ashkenazi May 08 '24
What should that flair be called? Might be interesting and more welcoming for some :)
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May 08 '24
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u/DevelopmentMediocre6 Ashkenazi May 08 '24
Maybe Jew-ish? I’m joking lol but yeah something to point of converting to Judaism would be nice :)
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u/vorobyevites Jewish May 07 '24
this line of thinking is extremely problematic and it's just going to make fencesitters want to go towards the side of zionists. we're supposed to be welcoming to everyone who wants to learn more in good faith, and i feel as if your comment pushes away those people
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u/Donnarhahn May 07 '24
Couldn't a person claim to be Jewish even if they were not? How would the mods verify the IDs of the almost 10k subs?
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u/DevelopmentMediocre6 Ashkenazi May 08 '24
Of course lol this is the internet. I’m sure they are many many people on Reddit under fake identities. People can lie and we have no way to check. I’m not talking about this subreddit but the whole site.
I personally don’t like the idea of requesting ids even then what if someone is 1/4 Jewish? They might not have the name to back it up.
We just gotta really on good faith and the mods will moderate people breaking the rules.
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u/Launch_Zealot Arab/Armenian-American Ally May 07 '24
I try to imagine myself as a guest in someone else’s home and use that as a guide.
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u/iny0urend0 May 07 '24
Yup same here. I happened upon this community by accident and I'm so happy I did.
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u/HippoRun23 May 07 '24
Same here. I have a Jewish wife and two Jewish children— so for me it’s a learning experience, and it helps my wife ease her conscience from her time being raised in a strict Zionist setting.
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u/wishdadwashere_69 Non-Jewish Ally May 08 '24
Same here, I think this and the Palestine sub are where I've seen some of the best contributions on this topic and as someone who grew up Muslim, it is interesting to be able to learn more about Jewish culture outside of Israel and how many similarities we have in our practices. I'll comment but I don't intend to make any posts in this sub as I understand from other comments that finding exclusive Jewish spaces that are both safe for Jews and anti Zionist online has been challenging and I don't want to hijack one of these spaces.
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May 08 '24
As long as you’re thoughtful, kind, and open-minded (which you seem to be), you’re the exact kind of non-Jew who should be welcomed to participate in this sub.
At the heart of Zionism is this notion that Jews can only be safe through completely removing ourselves from the world and becoming isolated in our own little enclave. So having non-Jews in this sub, especially Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians who we’ve be conditioned to view as threats to our safety, is incredibly important
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u/wishdadwashere_69 Non-Jewish Ally May 09 '24
What a sweet response thank you ❤️
Unfortunately I do think many of the Jewish people I've met seem to assume that Arabs are antisemitic by default. It seems like Anti Zionists or just regular antisemites have "the good Jew" and Zionists or regular Islamophobes have their own version in that "one good Muslim". If I'm honest, until the October attack nearly every Jewish person I've met heavily supported Israel and usually that's a topic that we'd have to avoid otherwise it would turn to an argument that might end our relationship. I can't say there isn't a certain relief when you meet a Jewish person who doesn't support Israel. I don't know how to explain this without making it sound like I'm placing that person into the "good Jew" box?
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 May 08 '24
Now I wanna know where the /r/MuslimsAndJewsSolveTheMiddleEast sub is
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u/Handsomeyellow47 May 08 '24
Same basically. I usually dont have much to say anyway. I just want to see rational people who are jewish have to say about this conflict that directly affects them lol
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u/Rigorous_Mortician Non-Jewish Ally May 09 '24
Same. Being non-practicing (aside from Chinese food on Christmas) but still considering Jewish heritage to be part of my identity complicates my feelings, but overall I'm here to educate myself rather than make some point. This place and /r/tankiejerk have been significant sources of sanity for me in this mess.
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May 07 '24
I definitely feel like more comments/posts are coming from non-Jews and some of them are kind of baity. I don't mind non-Jews posting here, but I can usually tell when it's a non-Jewish poster trying to goad Jews into agreeing with something or trying to give the false impression of Jews taking a position.
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u/mysecondaccountanon Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24 edited May 07 '24
I especially don’t like it when goyim come in and talk about like the position of “true” Judaism or whatever cause like what the heck is “true” Judaism. There’s a reason we have the saying 2 Jews 3 opinions! Also dislike when I see some discount other Jews because of their positions. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew, even if they’re like that, they’re still Jewish. Many of us here, including myself, been denied our own Jewishness by the larger community, and it’s an awful feeling that shouldn’t be done to people. Sometimes I even feel like I’m experiencing that here if I don’t align 100% despite being an anti-Zionist Jew myself.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 May 08 '24
Honestly if people generally considered this sub reflective of "the views of Judaism", we'd be less likely to get arrested on antisemitism laws for protesting for a ceasefire, and countries would be less likely to pass laws criminalizing anti-zionism as hate speech (happening in Canada right now :'( )
So actually, please, please let people take this as the Canonical Gospel of the Jews.
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u/DevelopmentMediocre6 Ashkenazi May 08 '24
It could be that we don’t have many anti Zionist or post Zionist Jews on this subreddit.
I do wonder if we have any statistic of the % of Jews around the world or USA if it’s easier to find that are post/anti Zionist.
From what I remember 95% of Israeli Jews are happy with the war. I thought that’s as interesting number to have.
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u/proletergeist Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
Agree 💯. I'm tired of seeing posts that look like they're coming from an anthropological survey team, or posting some random photo with a joke about antisemitism that otherwise has nothing to do with Judaism or being Jewish.
Non-Jews posting in this sub need to ask themselves what about their post makes it good to post in this sub compared to any other pro-Palestine sub. And if they're asking survey questions, they need to ask themselves why they're asking. If it's just for their curiosity then they should think twice (or maybe three or four times) before posting it.
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May 07 '24
"some random photo with a joke about antisemitism that otherwise has nothing to do with Judaism or being Jewish." - Yeah, the crude posts mocking antisemitism don't strike me as the kind of thing Jews would post lightly, and they bother me.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish May 07 '24
i rly don’t like when ppl decide to post the same clip in like 8 different subs at a time.
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May 07 '24
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u/mysecondaccountanon Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
Just checked them out cause I’ve definitely seen and been a bit weirded out by some of their posts, and it’s just like spam posted to a bunch of subs, and here’s the only place that seems to call out the misinfo. So they’re actively spreading misinfo in other subs too it seems. Ugh
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u/yungsemite Jewish May 07 '24
There’s an insane amount of misinformation about I/P everywhere right now. Truly mindboggling. I’m not a Zionist, but the straight up lies about Israel’s history and policies are mindboggling to me. Not that there aren’t a huge amount of lies about Palestinian history as well.
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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
If you have a problem with a specific user or post, please report it or message a mod.
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May 07 '24
The only thing i want to add is that personally as a jew id be comfortable posting or seeing posts BY JEWS of Jewish related things that aren’t related to Palestine or politics, because personally if something is important to my Judaism id rather talk about it with or have support from other Jews who agree with me politically and ethically
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u/proletergeist Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
I absolutely agree; I'd love to see a lot more general threads about Judaism from non- and anti-zionist Jews!
In all honesty, I don't even mind non-Jews asking questions because they genuinely want to know about Judaism or what non/anti-Zionist practice looks like. But it's a tough line to walk between genuine interest wanting to make a connection and a weird kind of tokenizing voyeurism, and unfortunately I feel like I've been seeing a lot of the latter.
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u/TheRoyalKT Atheist May 07 '24
At least those ones are actually meant for this sub. So many posts are just more “Here’s the latest horrible thing Israel did” news articles being shared on half a dozen subs at the same time. It feels like they’re just looking for a rubber stamp from us to acknowledge that the latest atrocity is indeed bad. “See, even those Jews agree!”
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u/PatrickMaloney1 Jewish May 07 '24
Alright, I feel a lot less crazy now that I see someone else has noticed this
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u/ionlymemewell May 08 '24
This is exactly what I've been feeling that I couldn't verbalize. Thank you.
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u/Various_Ad_1759 May 07 '24
As a non-Jewish member of this sub,I apologize for the way such questions make you feel.While there is no way for me to know the intentions of people who post such questions, I wish to share a perspective as to why such question make a lick of sense to me, personally.
It is not a matter of tokenizing anybody, however, being in many subs where zionist are trigger happy and fast to reply with the most vile and disgusting claims and accusations, it is understandable to be inquisitive about some of the claims zionist make regarding judeasm to someone who will not automatically label you as antisemitic or downvote you to hell.
This sub is amazingly unique in the manner by which people here conduct themselves. It is full of open and indearing discussions, and sometimes non-Jewish people would find it as a safe place to better understand Jewish perspective and opinions. Zionist incessantly claim to speak for all Jewish people, and it is disheartening to think people find their claims acceptable without question for the fear of being labeled or lambasted unfairly.
I wish this was helpful.
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u/Jche98 Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
Thank you for that insight
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u/Various_Ad_1759 May 07 '24
Your more than welcome, my friend. In a safe environment like this one, it is easy for people to put their guard down, and with that, people will sometimes ask inappropriate questions. It is equally important to call those questions out in order for people to continue feeling safe here.
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u/Exotic_Zucchini Non-Jewish Ally May 07 '24
In a way, as another non-Jewish ally, this sub can keep me sane sometimes. I don't intend to center myself while I'm in this sub and I mainly just read. However, in other subs, or other real life spaces, it has left people like me in a position where I am afraid of saying anything for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic. To be honest, I think a lot of those who label in that way aren't necessarily even who they say they are. There is so much propaganda and misinformation online, and a lot of bad faith actors who use the name calling for whatever other awful agenda they have going on. In other subs, when the subject is brought up, we can get labeled anti-Semitic by Christians who have their own "end of the world" zealotry going on. That's just one example. So, I will go back into the shadows here for the most part, but I have a ton of appreciation for this sub because of how it inadvertently even helps non-Jewish allies stay sane in a world that is doing its best to make us all question ourselves.
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u/residentofmoon May 07 '24
If you feel sane in a Jewish sub because the world is making you question yourself, then the world definitely needs some levity. 😉 After all, 2 Jews, 3 opinions, right?
Question more 👀🤣
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u/subtlecastle May 07 '24
Like OP said, thank you for your insight. I hope you read some of the other comments on this thread about how some Jews in the sub have been feeling.
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May 08 '24
I see this place as a safe and honest place to learn about judaism. The closest server to this one frequently has posts about JVP being "token jews". Perhaps adding an additional flair would be more helpful, so that people know there are non jews looking for questions regarding Judaism, zionism or Israel.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish May 07 '24
Agree 100%. I appreciate non jewish allies wanting to hear from our perspective and think that’s really great. But i do have the sense there are ppl who come onto this sub just to prove to themselves they aren’t antisemitic, because look all these jews agree with me and i like these jews. Its a fine place to ask questions or lurk to see discussion but when you as a non jew or even as jew tbh come on this sub of people who are explicitly antizionist, and deny ppls experiences with antisemitism or deny things we tell you are antisemitic or decide to have a debate with us about Jewish history and ethnicity and culture and antisemitism that’s a problem. I’m on this sub specifically because i simply cannot stay sane on any of the non jewish anti zionists ones. I don’t want to have to explain that antisemitism is a real problem and threat and that the left does engage with it on here.
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May 07 '24
I agree. This sub shouldn’t be a place where we are asked to display our beliefs for non-jews. At its core this is a sub for leftist jews to talk about leftism and Judaism. We’re not here to put down other jews or claim some kind of exceptionalism.
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May 07 '24
I personally haven't seen very many things that offend me in here, and I'm here a lot. However, I can't speak for everyone else, so there is that. I don't think it's a good idea to make this sub into Jewish customs/questions etc for anti zionists while there is a genocide. Sorry. If a holiday is coming up, sure let's talk about it, let's create meetups for people or something so that there are safer spaces to have celebration for us. But to say you're tired of seeing news stories about Gaza is extremely insensitive to me. If Jews were being killed every other day, we would be thinking about it, everyday. It's hard to watch, yep. That's kinda the point. Id rather these things be posted here than in other pro Palestine subs because the comments in other subs can actually get pretty bad. The thing that's great about Reddit is you can always take a break and come back to it later. You can always stop interacting with or downvote posts you don't like. I'm sorry people are feeling tokenized. I personally am getting triggered by people saying they feel tokenized because it basically proves all the Zionists right who talk about how Pro Palestine Jewish spaces do this. Maybe they do. Idk. I never feel welcome in many Jewish spaces, it's a problem. I really like this space. I particularly like that it's a mixed space, with allies in it, because I don't actually talk to non Jews about any of this in person. Nobody asks me, they are too afraid to ask me. I want people to learn and to learn from them. I am also aware of how closed of a practice Judaism is, and so my expectations of people knowing anything about us, our culture, and are our religion are low. This is why I think we should keep educating allies instead of gatekeeping or staying only in our spaces. Doing that has not gone well for us in terms of Zionism. I think maybe only wanting our own Jewish safe spaces is a response to trauma. Maybe we just need a separate Anti Zionist Spirituality group or something then.
Edit: Also want to add that when this genocide ends, I think having more stuff about Judaism in general would be great, but also, if you want it posted, just post it. I'm sure plenty of people will interact with that post
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u/dnakali11 May 08 '24
I'm 100% with you on this. I share many of your views.
I'm also wondering how many Jews of color are in this sub because I feel like this happens a lot (centering/gate keeping/avoiding painful content) in predominantly White spaces. If anything, as a multicultural Jew in this sub, I sometimes worry this place will disappoint me at some point like every single place I've tried to feel seen because the defense mechanisms are so strong. I'm also particularly vulnerable as someone who never fit in Jewish spaces as a patrilineal Jew with a mom who converted and has been trying to reconnect with my Judaism after decades without it - specifically because of those above issues I've mentioned. My intersectionalities make it hard to really trust places and I'm tired.
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u/Partyinmykonos Jew of Color May 08 '24
I’m a patrilineal multiracial Jew too! It is so refreshing to find others like me in the wild 😊
I completely agree with you. Personally, I find safety in the anonymity of Reddit. But it also sometimes feels like masking and like I am not showing up in full.
One thing that does bother me in these subs is when full Ashkenazi Jews try to claim POC status. Having been the “other” in all/predominantly white spaces for much of my life—including all/predominantly Ashkenazi spaces—I know the marginalization I face as a Jew of color is much different. I certainly know I have faced more barriers than my father who is full Ashkenazi and experiences much more white privilege than I ever will.
I have found it to be a lonely existence. I’m an only child and I have only ever met two other patrilineal Jews of color my entire life (and never got into heavy discussions of identity like this with either of them). It’s so refreshing and affirming even to find other Jews like me.
Oh I should mention that I really like Hey Alma for regularly centering Jews of color and publishing op-eds from a diverse set of authors (patrilineal, non-white, converts, etc.).
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May 08 '24 edited May 08 '24
I'm sorry you also feel really out of place in Jewish spaces. I know all about the racism and classism and general purity testing in Jewish spaces. We are really behind and we have a lot of work to do. I am a Post Soviet Russian Jew that was raised with parents who knew nothing about Judaism. I celebrated holidays with extended family sometimes and I went to a Reform youth group, but that was it. I was the only person in my youth group who didn't go to Synagogue. My parents didn't go, but I wanted to do something Jewish, so I did. The biggest ostracization for me had to do with money. I did not grow up wealthy. We could not afford Jewish overnight summer camp, shul, or anything. I have been ostracized by Jews as a kid due to socio economic differences a lot, but thankfully that's much better when you're an adult.
Edited because I answered in the morning without fully reading the post and needed to make edits
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u/Antique_Grand_5940 May 08 '24
I am an an Anti-Zionist Jew who has looked to “mute” (while remaining a member of) this sub in the past couple days because the “genocide porn” has become too much for me.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
I think my only issue with either this sub(which honestly I’ve not felt from this sub at all) or JVP is the allowance it can sometimes give to downplaying Jewish feelings. Like “these Jews aren’t hurt by xyz so why are you?” Honestly, I don’t feel that at all from this sub so I’m sorry you have. I have felt it from JVP. Just yesterday JVP had a post regarding the word intafada and I thought the tone of the post was a tad bit dismissive of Jewish feelings and fears. so—I made a somewhat neutral comment. I said I acknowledge the word has another meaning and I’ve taken the time to unlearn it. But for a lot of Jews, it’s a scary word. I think as JVP we can bridge the gap with these Jews by offering empathy…
I was BOMBARDED “white privilege” “stop centering yourself, there is a genocide” “these Jews have taken the time to unlearn their biases, why haven’t you? You’re telling on yourself”…… I mean I know it’s the internet.. but I feel like JVP very much has a vibe of self flagellation and apologizing for existing while Jewish. Which I really really dislike. Because it validates anyone that believes Jews have privilege and shouldn’t be upset about anything at all. JVP misses a real opportunity here IMO
Why am I saying all this about JVP? Because I think our sub does not do this .. we handle things really well most of the time. and it’s really important IMO that we continue to. I’d be curious to hear other JOC thoughts.
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u/Mango_Kayak Jewish May 07 '24
I think I saw your comment and felt really uncomfortable with some of those responses too… using semantics to explain why a word shouldn’t be triggering is immature and trivializing. It sucks because there are a lot of phrases that are deemed antisemitic by ADL, etc where the origin of the word is not hateful
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
I ended up deleting it because it got so out of control. I mean, again, it’s the internet.. I shouldn’t really expect productive conversations or good faith commenters.
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u/elzzyzx Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
there is some kraus v hertzl level animosity between jvp and mainstream jews. i have empathy for jvp given the daily bombardment of protocols of the elders of antizionism type of antisemitism they get deluged with nowadays.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
I don’t get the reference :/ but yea…. For sure I have empathy for them. I just wish there were a Jewish Antizionist org that did a better job at bridging the gap
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May 07 '24
If Not Now& JFREJ are pretty great in terms of being very Jewish centric activist spaces. In fact, they get criticized by JVP folks for centering too much, but I prefer it.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
I prefer it too. I think there is value in both approaches so I’m glad both exist. Neither should really try to stamp out the other.
I definitely prefer the Jewish centric approach to a specifically Antizionist Jewish space, for what it’s worth. And I think JVP has a real opportunity to facilitate education about Judaism and Jewish perspective on things.. so it’s a shame they don’t really do it for Jews unless it’s very specific Antizionist Jews who are somewhat ok with micro aggressions
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May 07 '24
JVP rebranded a while ago. I remember their social media would ignore basically every world event and only post Palestine news for a while. It was helpful information but basically not only didn't center Jews, it didn't center anyone else but Palestinians. Which is I think is their main purpose as a group
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
It’s fair. But I do also think it’s probably wise of them to try and empathize with Jews that feel hesitant? Like not center Jews in their mission but bring some awareness around microaggesuons in Palestinian activism… like just my two cents but open to other perspectives
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u/elzzyzx Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
sorry the reference is to theodor hertzl (one of the founders of political zionism) who wrote a pretty antisemitic screed called mauschel about yiddish jews in europe. and kraus wrote some essays against zionism that also veered into antisemitism and yeah, no love lost between the two either.
INN maybe? mainstream jews seem to consider that the same as jvp though. i've heard there are big differences between branches of INN but I've had good conversations with them. of course i'm not the target audience here (and definitely guilty of losing my patience with zionists)
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 07 '24
Oh haha, ok good reference! Thanks for explaining.
I lose my patience with Zionists too… but honestly just the ones that keep insisting I’m wrong at their beliefs are unquestionably valid. When I discuss ideas with people and we just listen to each other and don’t talk about labels, it often goes much better
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u/Partyinmykonos Jew of Color May 07 '24
I agree this sub can sometimes feel like a fishbowl and not a 100% safe space to participate in full. I appreciate allies supporting us, but some of their questions/posts feel a little insensitive, and even goading at times. That is probably not their intent, but can just come off that way. I don’t want to project, but sometimes I feel like I need my thoughts and feelings to be validated by non-Jews and to prove my anti-Zionism in a way. This should be a safe space where we don’t feel those fears and can be honest about the questions we’re grappling with and our thoughts/feelings.
I really do not mean to judge or offend, but I also think it’s a little strange how non-Jews routinely insert their POV in this sub - tbh, it’s not totally unlike a straight person voicing their opinion in a queer sub or a white person in a BIPOC-centered sub. Or perhaps a better comparison - if I, a Jew, were to engage in a sub meant for, say, progressive Catholics. Again, I do appreciate allies coming here to learn and engage, but I would just implore them to remember that they are guests in this home.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally May 11 '24
I understand what you're saying and I completely agree however are you factoring in neurodiversity?
I only say this because I think I have complex ADHD (something I only discovered last year-ish), now this leads me different rabbit holes not exactly good for my mental health so I hang out here because I generally see fewer anti-semitic posts, the people tend to be decent people and yeah not going to lie I do find Jewish culture fascinating as it is so diverse.
Culture is also something to factor in as different countries have different values and trying to apply one set standard would be extremely difficult as the internet doesn't really have boundaries as such.
I'm glad this place exists, the mods seem to do a decent job at keeping the place in order which can't be easy with what's going on in the world.
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u/Partyinmykonos Jew of Color May 12 '24
Oh totally! I have raging ADHD and find myself going down rabbit holes as well. I’m sorry if my initial comment came off as dismissive towards other neurodiverse people.
I completely agree that this should be an inclusive space where non-Jews feel welcome to learn and engage. I guess what I really meant to say was that it can sometimes feel like posts from other Jews face some unfair scrutiny in the comments and some of the posts in here from non-Jews can feel a little insensitive at times. It makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable to voice my opinion for fear of undue scrutiny. I know I personally—and likely many other members of this group—are in the process of actively decolonizing our minds and unlearning a lot of what we had been taught growing up about Israel, Zionism, our faith, our collective history, etc., and also confronting difficult questions about our relationships with loved ones who hold onto Zionist beliefs. It can be a bit of a mindfuck, so I guess I’m just asking non-Jews to have grace within this group and enter it with a nonjudgmental lens (but by no means should we forgo holding others accountable when necessary).
And I don’t believe in setting a standard for this or asking the mods to start censoring folks. I would just ask non-Jews to have sensitivity in this group. At the end of the day, this is a Judaism-centric group and I want it to feel like a safe space for my fellow anti-Zionist Jews and still an inclusive space for our allies.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally May 13 '24
NO No it didn't , it's just a reminder to people that not everyone is created the same we are only really discovering the different between neurotypcial and neurodiverse.
I can't speak for anyone but myself and everyone has their own standards on what is deemed offensive. I'm not old but I'm not young either I've seen how things have changed over time and I know standards aren't the same over the board.
I'm a firm believer in if you do or say anything offensive, apologise and try to move on communication is key thou so I believe we are in agreement
I hang around a lot of queer spaces and still find it hard to ask someone their pronouns so end up using a gender-neutral term if order no to be offensive however some will find that offensive this leads to awkwardness.
I'm still trying to understand Jewish culture I've only met one Jewish person in my life (that I know of ) and they are secular not going to lie the culture like most cultures interests me.
Seeing the post I have about how many anti-Zionists Jews are alienated from their family and friends is important for others to see as it shows how courageous and loving they are.
Facism is no doubt on the rise, anti-Semitism has certainly increased that's why quite a few allies just end up here because they don't want to be part of that racist rhetoric.
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u/Mango_Kayak Jewish May 07 '24
I appreciate this post and agree this should be a space to build community
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u/monstargaryen Non-Jewish Ally May 07 '24
I’m sorry if this type of comment is emblematic of the problem you’re raising, OP.
As a non-Jew who grew up among many Jews and is fond of both the Jewish-American culture and Jewish religion, I value the interactions I have in this space. I hate to think, however, that I and others like me have made it less of a special space of Jewish community for the Jewish community, though.
May I suggest another sub for Jews of conscience and allies/friends while making this sub a primarily Jewish space? I imagine it would be valuable to have a sense of Jewish community here while interacting with the larger community there — and for the latter, hopefully in a non-patronizing, non-tokenizing fashion.
Just food for thought.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 08 '24
Personally I think this sub should allow for allies, maybe there can be another sub like r/questionsforantizionistjews
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u/SmashBomb Ashkenazi May 07 '24
yes please it should be mainly about jewish life and memes, and a strict ban on far right.
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u/jryan102 Ashkenazi May 09 '24
This is how I’ve felt with the encampments. I’m fully in support of them, but at least the one at my school always leads with a photo of a protestor clearing wearing a Yarmulke or a Star of David and then the rest of the pics have no Jewish people. Maybe I’m being cynical, but sometimes it feels like they just use us as a shield against accusations of antisemitism.
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u/DevelopmentMediocre6 Ashkenazi May 08 '24
Low effort posts is a problem everywhere in Reddit but I get your frustration.
About the token thing. I don’t feel it but let’s remember this sun has people from all over the world and might be young or out of touch so they might not even understand the whole concept of being “token”
The whole good jews topic - I hate it lol but I’ve seen much worse coming from the Judaism sub Reddit and I actually had to stop going over there because it was affecting my mental health. I’ve been called a Judenrat a couple of times and I didn’t expect me to make me that sad lol
Good or bad people are based on their actions. This might sound controversial but I do believe you can have good and bad people in almost all sides of a conflict. No one is pure bad or good.
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May 09 '24
The jewish subs have also been very disappointing. I think there are a LOT of people who, even if they don't fall into the anti-zionist camp, are at a minimum uncomfortable with the current situation, but get sileneced/downvoted by the loudest voices in those subs. I also think the people pushing the hard line views (antizionism is always antisemitism etc.) don't understand how their actions are quietly backfiring by pushing away more and more Jews.
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u/AnteaterPersonal3093 May 07 '24
As a non jewish ally I just come here to learn from your culture. It's always so interesting to see how believers act on judaism in practice while still standing up for Palestine. It shows how much Judaism values freedom and knowing your perspective also makes it easier for us non jews to talk to jews who are not sure about the conflict without accidentally falling into antisemitic rhetoric
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 08 '24
I’m also gonna add.. despite relating to OP a bit and having concerns.. I am SO HAPPY to see allies here, learning and asking questions and showing appreciation.. and seeing how much they care and don’t want to be antisemitic or commit microaggessions and learn how so many Jews are fighting against Zionism. Having allies here has helped my mental health tremendously, truly. I get what OP is saying.. and allies should not speak over Jews here… but I’m so glad you’re here ♥️
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u/noam99 May 07 '24 edited May 07 '24
I'd like to think that I speak for a lot of the Jews here when I say that your post really frustrates me. There's a genocide going on and this issue is completely pedantic. I've been seeing far too many of these lately. Just my two cents.
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u/Jche98 Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
Sorry, do you mean the types of post I am talking about or this particular post?
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u/Jche98 Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
I mean of course people being genocided blows everything else out of the water. But again, there are student protests, JVP events, hundreds of meaningful actions we are taking to do what we can to stop it. There are hundreds of subs on reddit which are talking about it. It's just that I feel THIS sub should serve a slightly different purpose: be a place where we antizionist jews can congregate to discuss the issues affecting us, trivial though they may be compared to the struggles of the Gazan people against the ethnofascists.
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u/noam99 May 07 '24
Well, in the spirit of discussing "the issues affecting us", seeing as the first requisite for being Jewish is being a person, than if you're a bad person (and jewish) you are a bad jew. Either way, we're splitting hairs here.
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u/ThePaintedOgre Jewish May 07 '24
Nope. You don’t speak for all of us. This comment is reductive as fuck. There are still a lot of other issues for us to tackle and work on. The feeling of being tokenized and the much encountered “good Jew” test is just as valid to be discussed in this space.
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u/noam99 May 07 '24
I may not speak for all but I know I speak for some as I've recently seen a post here sharing the same grievance. This type of sentiment centres Jews as the victims of this conflict in a way that's completely inappropriate.
Also bad person=bad jew
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May 08 '24
I'm pretty confident that the up tick in non jew activity in this server directly correlates with the Gazan genocide. A lot of people are seeing and ingesting very anti semitic language and imagery and are coming to this server to unlearn or better navigate what anti semitism mean. Even if it can be annoying, at this moment it is necessary. The alternative would be having fewer allies that will check anti semitism on your behalf.
I speak for myself when I say I absolutely was falling into a lot of anti semitic beliefs and absolutely made some stupid posts in this server. But I have learned, grown and am actively working to be a good ally.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 08 '24
You don’t speak for me at all. It’s so tiring to think Jews aren’t even allowed to complain about their feelings and fears in a JEWISH space. It’s fucking exhausting. It’s one thing to center yourself at all times, it’s another entirely to be able to BRING IT UP. People don’t tend to let things go when you insist they “calm down” and “stop making it about you”… “work this out on your own” they tend to let things go when they are allowed to be heard and when you receive them with compassion, even if there is pushback in that compassion. Just my two cents. This is a Jewish space, we allow for Jewish feelings.
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u/noam99 May 09 '24
I’m not telling OP to “take this shit elsewhere” but as long you want to discuss “Jewish issues” than I will exercise my license to call out what I think is BS when I see it. This type of post is what I call fodder-for-the-take-wars. “Jewish tokenization”? That is not a real problem.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi May 09 '24
Jewish tokenization is a talking point of Zionists but it doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. Some People absolutely treat Jews like tokens
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u/Fun_Pension_2459 May 08 '24
I disagree. I am here, in part, to justify Judaism in the face of Zionism. I am interested in how other people who are Jewish but not Zionist regard various issues.
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u/RynoTheAlbinoDino Non-Jewish Ally May 08 '24
I rarely post here but I’ve noticed what you are talking about also and wondered if it was just in my head. Why. I’ve noticed it in myself. To be brutally frank, I have never given two turds about whether anyone was jewish or not. And if I knew, I, again, never thought about it. Just like my voting record for Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein… then being a jewish president (hopeful) had nothing to do with anything.
However, with the constant coverage and seeing my country (USA) aggressively gaslight many of us daily about what’s going on, I have slowly started to kind of develop a “good jew bad jew” mentality in a similar way I have always done with “good christian bad christian”… my own experiences. It’s like this racism from both sides of this conflict is affecting me.
I am very sorry for that truth but it’s there. U.S. politicians and media cramming Israel worship down our throats despite me having no allegiance to the “foreign country” mixed in with what I see with my own eyeballs, is messing with me and I don’t like it.
All that being said, and this is ironic considering your complaint, thanks for showing me that I’m not crazy and helping me from going further down some horrible spiral in this clown show.
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u/electric_too_fast May 07 '24
I'm not a Jew.
But I'm here simply to support those who, at least to me, have shown great bravery standing up against zionists while being ostracized by their families and stood on the right side of history.
I don't post much here, I observe, as this is your space, unless I come across someone suffering from the above, just to let them know that their bravery is known (what little it may help).
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u/MitchellCumstijn May 08 '24
No offense, but I quit Judaism. It was probably the gefilte fish and the nasty Yiddish and Dutch speaking grandmother who wouldn’t let me leave the dinner table without swallowing them down. I did everything I could to try and avoid the misery, even planting them in houseplants and pretending to have to go the bathroom and flushing them down the toilet and she unearthed my criminals acts and destroyed my reputation with my parents. As soon as I was out of the house at 19, I turned my back on the faith, always thought we were very insecure provincials anyway trying to act like we had the credentials of the Sumerians who were much more sophisticated.
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May 08 '24
I get it, I hate the stuff too, but it's really not a requirement of being Jewish. I always refuse it. And it's only a feature of Ashkenazi Jews - many other Jewish cultures don't have it.
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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist May 07 '24
Personally, I have not felt this and have been happy with participation in the sub centering Jewish voices.
That said, I want the sub to be responsive to the wants of the community. So I have a few questions if that isn’t hijacking too much:
How do you feel about news posts generally about Israel/Palestine?
Should there be rules or restrictions on non-Jewish commenters?
Are there any specific types of posts that you believe should have rules or restrictions?
How do you feel about about a weekly stickied “Ask an anti-Zionist Jew” post? A place to collect general asks.