Feeling tokenised on this sub

[u/Jche98]

I've been getting the impression lately that so much of this sub is becoming posts like "as jews of conscience, what do you think of X?" or "as real jews who believe in real judaism, what do you think of Y?" These questions are from non-jews. I appreciate non-jewish allies taking part in this sub but lately it's feeling that it's just people trying to paint us as "the good jews". This sub is about being jewish and anti-Zionist and the struggles that come with that. It's not a sub for us to parade around claiming to be the "true jews" or for people to parade us around like that. We are jewish and we oppose Zionism but the Zionist jews are also jewish. We're no less or more jewish than they are. And we're not here to justify judaism in the face of Zionism. There are a million (very important) subs where there is general discussion about Palestine and the genocide in Gaza. But I feel like this sub should be something for us.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I think my only issue with either this sub(which honestly I’ve not felt from this sub at all) or JVP is the allowance it can sometimes give to downplaying Jewish feelings. Like “these Jews aren’t hurt by xyz so why are you?” Honestly, I don’t feel that at all from this sub so I’m sorry you have. I have felt it from JVP. Just yesterday JVP had a post regarding the word intafada and I thought the tone of the post was a tad bit dismissive of Jewish feelings and fears. so—I made a somewhat neutral comment. I said I acknowledge the word has another meaning and I’ve taken the time to unlearn it. But for a lot of Jews, it’s a scary word. I think as JVP we can bridge the gap with these Jews by offering empathy…

I was BOMBARDED “white privilege” “stop centering yourself, there is a genocide” “these Jews have taken the time to unlearn their biases, why haven’t you? You’re telling on yourself”…… I mean I know it’s the internet.. but I feel like JVP very much has a vibe of self flagellation and apologizing for existing while Jewish. Which I really really dislike. Because it validates anyone that believes Jews have privilege and shouldn’t be upset about anything at all. JVP misses a real opportunity here IMO

Why am I saying all this about JVP? Because I think our sub does not do this .. we handle things really well most of the time. and it’s really important IMO that we continue to. I’d be curious to hear other JOC thoughts.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Specialist-Gur]

there is some kraus v hertzl level animosity between jvp and mainstream jews. i have empathy for jvp given the daily bombardment of protocols of the elders of antizionism type of antisemitism they get deluged with nowadays.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/elzzyzx]

I don’t get the reference :/ but yea…. For sure I have empathy for them. I just wish there were a Jewish Antizionist org that did a better job at bridging the gap

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

If Not Now& JFREJ are pretty great in terms of being very Jewish centric activist spaces. In fact, they get criticized by JVP folks for centering too much, but I prefer it.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I prefer it too. I think there is value in both approaches so I’m glad both exist. Neither should really try to stamp out the other.

I definitely prefer the Jewish centric approach to a specifically Antizionist Jewish space, for what it’s worth. And I think JVP has a real opportunity to facilitate education about Judaism and Jewish perspective on things.. so it’s a shame they don’t really do it for Jews unless it’s very specific Antizionist Jews who are somewhat ok with micro aggressions

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

JVP rebranded a while ago. I remember their social media would ignore basically every world event and only post Palestine news for a while. It was helpful information but basically not only didn't center Jews, it didn't center anyone else but Palestinians. Which is I think is their main purpose as a group

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

It’s fair. But I do also think it’s probably wise of them to try and empathize with Jews that feel hesitant? Like not center Jews in their mission but bring some awareness around microaggesuons in Palestinian activism… like just my two cents but open to other perspectives

[u/elzzyzx → u/Specialist-Gur]

sorry the reference is to theodor hertzl (one of the founders of political zionism) who wrote a pretty antisemitic screed called mauschel about yiddish jews in europe. and kraus wrote some essays against zionism that also veered into antisemitism and yeah, no love lost between the two either.

INN maybe? mainstream jews seem to consider that the same as jvp though. i've heard there are big differences between branches of INN but I've had good conversations with them. of course i'm not the target audience here (and definitely guilty of losing my patience with zionists)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/elzzyzx]

Oh haha, ok good reference! Thanks for explaining.

I lose my patience with Zionists too… but honestly just the ones that keep insisting I’m wrong at their beliefs are unquestionably valid. When I discuss ideas with people and we just listen to each other and don’t talk about labels, it often goes much better