r/reddeadmysteries • u/ImAgIrAfFe72 • Jan 11 '21
Theory When Micah was picked up by Pinkertons
This may seem a bit far fetched so strap in guys, it’s a weird one. (Excuse the rubbish format, I’m on mobile.)
So, we know Micah was picked up by the Pinkertons right after Guarma, yeah? And as you don’t retrieve your horse until a little bit later, you can steal one. Now to me, it seems the player is directed to a specific horse hitched outside the bar (is it Annesburg or Van Horn? I can’t remember) and that horse is a tobiano Hungarian Half-Bred.
However, during the Chapter Two mission ‘The Sheep and the Goats’, you can see a Pinkerton agent next to Cornwall, saddled on a tobiano Hungarian Half-Bred. This horse is pretty hard to find unless you’re extremely lucky and find one at a camp or nab one off a bounty hunter, so we know they’re not super common and are kind of exclusive to these characters, right?
SO, my line of thought is, an agent could’ve been inside the town’s bar and that’s where Micah was grabbed- maybe the horse you can steal is a Pinkerton’s and that’s why you don’t lose honour for taking it as you would by stealing an ‘innocent’s’; also, Micah takes a while compared to others to reach Lakay, but I realise this could be down to not knowing where the gang was holed up at the time and I’m just grasping at straws or something.
I feel like this isn’t just a random coincidence because, y’know, it’s Rockstar and I thought it would be a pretty neat thing, like a red herring, maybe?
But, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, please tell me your thoughts!
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u/Tron_1981 Jan 12 '21
Given the way that he came at both Arthur and John about being potential rats, I would confidently assume that he was projecting to deflect any possible guess of him being the rat. And I don't think that Agent Milton had any reason to lie to Arthur, as he thought he had Arthur caught or dead in that moment.
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Okay so this is the thing. Throughout the whole game micah had bragged about his horrible acts, killing people, raping, etc. He even mocked other gang members and was straight up racist to their face, like with Javier so I doubt he cares about what they think of him. Of course he wouldn't just outright admit it in front of the gang, but the fact that he still denied it when alone with Arthur at the end, seems kinda out character. Micah had bragged before constantly about shit he did. But he didnt brag and mock Arthur at the end for literally destroying his life?
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u/andrecinno Jan 21 '21
Everyone who says Micah isn't the rat is ignoring the fact that Jim straight up says it.
When he thinks he's gonna kill everyone in that room. 0 danger for him.
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u/titanlmao Jan 22 '21 edited Jan 22 '21
this is 9 days old dude. and again, all people say "oh jim said so and he wasnt gonna die" ignoring they did the same to john. a deal, he couldve struck a deal. like with john
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u/andrecinno Jan 22 '21
9 days old apparently is where a discussion cuts off lol
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u/titanlmao Jan 22 '21
no its just old as fuck and i dont want people replying to me a week and a half later to argue about something i already told to like 4 other people.
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u/andrecinno Jan 22 '21
Did he even deny being the rat, though?
Didn't he just deflect by saying "I'm a survivor!"?
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u/titanlmao Jan 22 '21
He didn't confirm or deny it. Many people use the survivor as micah excusing himself, but again, this is the same man who bragged about raping, killing, molesting, and robbing, so I doubt that he has that much guilt or conscience.
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Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
True, but in the criminal world beeing labeled as a rat is like a death sentence. So the things you sayd he bragged about killing raping etc. are things he considers acomplishments but admit beeing a rat and it's over. I also think micah expected dutch might be close and didn't want him to hear it bc he still wanted that Blackwater money and needed dutch
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u/titanlmao Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
This is 1899, back then it was completely different, and plus, its not like anyone can just search your name up and find out everything about you. Half the gang knew absolutely nothing about Micah before he joined, and we still don't know anything about him apart that he was a criminal with his dad
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Jan 23 '21
The code of never rating was a unspoken rule even back then at least in the gang world. We dont know much yeah. Someone said he might be a pinkerton agent that was placed in that bar where he safed dutch. Did you notice the unpleased look in miltons face when he found micahs body?
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u/titanlmao Jan 24 '21
Again, can you show that people back then thought the same way? And I dont think hes a Pinkerton agent, I dont think so considering his story goes all the way back to 1878 or so when he was 13 and was already killing people with his father, thats the earliest mention of Micah we have. So unless the Pinkerton were willing to use an insane, homicidal, maniac, I dint think he was. And here's the thing, I believe Micah was innocent of snitching. I believe milton told Arthur Micah was the rat so he would go kill micah, and that he told Micah that Arthur was the rat, so he would go kill Arthur. Now I know "wHY woUlD milTon Lie TO aRTHur, He HAd a GUn TO ArTHurs heAd" well, think of Arthur or Micah as the original John. A former gang members they were gonna use to kill the remaining gang members, why? Well milton already saw that both Micah and Arthur killed his men, over and over and over again, so why not use the strongest gang members, put them against each other, and use the survivor to kill the remaining gang members. And thats why I believe Ross had an unpleased face when he found Micah body, because he just lost his original John, the man who they would use to kill the remaining gang members, so now they had to find a new guy. They hunted down the man who killed Micah, since they needed someone of Micah level, and hunted down John, which then kickstarted rdr1
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Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
You dont need to go with this big letter small letter i was talking normal to you. Can i show that? No i cant but i can also not show that they would say working with O'driscolls is a no go but i'm pretty sure most will agree with me on that (maybe you too?) You believe milton told arthur that micah was the snitch to start a war. Let me tell you why this is unlikely. This would mean milton expected arthur to kill him and go back to the gang so he was like"this is my last revenge". No he thought he would kill/arrest arthur so he wouldn't be able to tell anybody what milton sayd. Then in the end you say micah was the original john and send to kill the gang. That is a traitor. Can you show that the pinkertons thought that way? 😉 We feel different thats ok. I wonder if we can continue this discussion in a respectfull way
Edit: i dont think micah is a pinkerton agent. But he is a rat remember micah had dutchs poster in his camp in montos rest in chapter 2 also a newspaper mentions the train job with charles sean john and says the cops were told about it
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u/titanlmao Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
Oh sorry if it seemed disrespectful or as if I was talking down to you man, wasn't my intention. And I think that Pinkerton mightve thought that way considering they only focused on John after Micah died, and then they end up using him to kill the remaining gang members, it seems as if they used John instead because he would be the only one willing to, well the only one willing to after Micah died. And when I said that he told Arthur that Micah was the rat to start a fight, i mostly meant a death match, which is exactly what happened towards the end. And tbh, i believe Micah was a rat, but not to the extent that Milton made him out to be
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Jan 24 '21
Ok cool i got you wrong then. I also can say look how the gang threated molly susan literally said:"she knew the rules!" That shows what the label rat meant. But Milton wanting to start a Deathmatch would mean he expected Arthur to kill him and get away but when Milton told Arthur that Micah rated, Milton tought Arthur would never reach the gang again you know? I agree on John i bet they first aproached him in sissika like:"let's trade info against priviliges!" I think he refused but the thought was placed in his head and in the end it worked
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u/titanlmao Jan 24 '21
Okay so here's the thing about the deathmatch, milton didnt expect Arthur to win or lose, he just wanted one of them dead, and the survivor would be used by the Pinkerton to kill the rest of the gang. Which was originally Micah, but after John killed him, they ended up using John instead.and there's also the fact that there might be another rat, considering that the bank heist was snitched on by someone that wasn't Micah
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u/sethdrak33 Jul 24 '23
Nah dude. Micah saying "I'm a survivor!" was him saying without saying that he's a rat. He's basically saying "I'm not a rat I do what I need to do to survive, even if it kills other people". That's 100% Micahs shady ass way of beating around the bush but still admitting to it. 100% a Micah move.
Also if you ask me Micah didn't effect arthur at all. Micahs actions negativity effected the gang as a whole and killed some but in the end arthur fully succeed in his plans and Micah couldn't stop him no matter how hard he tried. Which is why he gave up in the end. He could've walked away with Micah and Dutch but the sickness was to much and he let it take over. After all the Pinkertons were after Dutch and said multiple times they didn't care for the rest but would use them to get to Dutch since Dutch was the one telling them what to do and to steal from Cornwall. Micah didn't care either way because all he really wanted was to get rich and not die.
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u/ironwolf425 Xbox One Jan 12 '21
yeah maybe the whole reason micah trying to kill arthur (which he ended up doing) was because micah was genuinely innocent and he thought arthur was the rat trying to frame micah
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u/gsf32 Jan 12 '21
Unlikely, but not impossible. I'll meditate it
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u/ironwolf425 Xbox One Jan 13 '21
who knows, it’s like someone else said, micah is too obvious of a rat to be a rat
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u/Hardie1247 Jan 12 '21
Im honestly convinced that it had nothing to do with Micah at all, at least not to begin with, and that's why the extent of Micah's involvement was left so open ended. The Pinkertons claim that Micah was picked up upon their return from Guarma, however there are tip-offs towards the heist which sends them there, as if the Pinkertons were informed of when and where they should be prepared for the bank heist to happen, prior to speaking to Micah at all.
This makes me wonder whether "Micah is a rat" was a lie from the start, spread by the Pinkertons to cause distrust amongst the gang, which they knew was already falling apart due to a potential other informant?
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Thats exactly a theory I made. Can I ask you when you finished the game?
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u/Hardie1247 Jan 12 '21
I first finished the game maybe 2 months after release, played through about 5 times though.
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Okay, you mind dming me? I made a theory exactly to yours but more in depth. Problem is I finished the game only 1 time and finished it 7 months ago so my memory isn't the best. So if you could help me out with it I'd appreciate it
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u/xSmxthy Jan 12 '21
Please could you DM me this too, I’d enjoy the read
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Sure thing lad
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u/merilum Jan 12 '21
me too pls
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Here you go lad, a fresh plate of theory
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u/KingWhiteVll Jan 12 '21
You’re probably getting blown up with this, but I’m also genuinely curious
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Yeah sure, sorry I went to sleep and woke up with 26 replies asking me to dm them the theory
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u/dalejunior93 Jan 12 '21
Aye, can I read that theory as well?
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Sure thing dude, I posted it like 2 days ago but dotted it because I wanted to try to complete the game again so I could have a fresh mind of the game
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u/odwyed03 Jan 12 '21
Can I read the theory too please?
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u/rcfan34 Jan 12 '21
Could you dm me the theory?
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Sure thing dude
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u/MartianSockPuppet Jan 12 '21
My man, could you DM this theory too. Love theories in this game and can't get enough of them.
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u/VoiceOfTheVoiceless_ Jan 12 '21
Not even gonna ask since you're getting quite a bit of requests... BUT if you happen to notice me I'd take a plate of theory as well!
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u/AqueleMalucoLa Jan 12 '21
I know a lot of people are asking, but when you have some time, could you DM me this too?
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Jan 12 '21
Sort of, I just notice he only goes out of his way to deny being a rat in front of the rest of the gang, otherwise he just replies "I'm a SURVIVOR." He's explaining and justifying his actions for himself
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Infront of the gang makes sense as he knows he's gonna get killed. But I feel as if when he's alone with Arthur calling himself a survivkr, he isnt admitting to it. Keep in mind. Micah barely feels guilt and has barely a conscience, seeing how he was racist, a rapist, a murderer, and other things, so I feel like snitching on a gang would be the least of his worries.
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u/okay-ew Xbox One Jan 12 '21
Yes! There’s one thing I was wondering too. Not long before Micah gets locked up in Strawberry, the mission ‘A Fisher of Men’ starts, where agent Milton somehow knows a basic area as to where the gang is. My thinking is that Micah got a little desperate, opened his mouth a bit and spilled a vague location. Could be a reason it takes so long for him to be hanged?
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Well, as far as I remember wasnt he due to hang the next day after you get drunk with lenny?
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u/okay-ew Xbox One Jan 12 '21
He was, but you can make it all the way until it’s one of the last missions before chapter 3. I’d say, maybe at least 3-4 days ingame (storywise)
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Thats more of a "you didn't do it quickly so the mission was postponed" instead of a "the story made it so he wasnt hanged fkr a long time" like with John where he was atleast waiting for days to he hanged
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u/okay-ew Xbox One Jan 12 '21
That’s true, but it definitely seems storywise that it had been more than a day. In John’s case, Arthur and Sadie had gone a day (maybe 2) after Guarma to the bar to scout the place with the balloon (when he gets diagnosed), and then after that go get him. It seems like it had been rushed, but still a couple of days
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Yeah but with Micah you could do the mission the day after lenny, so to me it seems again, more of a mission not being done, instead of the story making it take a while
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u/okay-ew Xbox One Jan 12 '21
That’s true, definitely could be it. But I’ll stay thinking that micah opened his mouth early just because I really don’t like him
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u/Bipedleek Jan 12 '21
They were wanted bank robbers last seen in an area with a big bank, the Pinkertons didn’t need an informant to get them
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u/LazyBriton Jan 12 '21
Yeah that was my problem, like there were already so many plans that went wrong before he supposedly got picked up, but then the Pinkerton who tells you Micah is a rat (don’t remember his name) did so when he thought he was about to kill you all, right? So why bother lying.
One of my theories is that it really was that their “luck” had changed, it’s mentioned multiple times that your gang was somewhat of a Robin’s Merry Men deal, you would steal but you would help people in need if you found them. Then planning the big Blackwater heist, you join up with Micah the evil bitch, the plan goes awry, and your gang really doesn’t do much to help the needy anymore, it only works to serve itself, so you befall bad luck in all your ventures.
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u/BakedBean89 Jan 12 '21
I don’t believe Micah was a rat. Never really did. And it all goes back to the opening lines, the last gangs were being hunted and destroyed which here as you correctly point out to cause distrust. That was the only way to destroy the gang. Arthur points out the entire game how out in the open they were, playing literally every side in the states. They didn’t need a rat to get caught. Pinkertons were just competent enough to keep up.
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u/skizwald Jan 12 '21
It's funny how many time the term " Lay Low" comes up in the gang. They pissed off Cornwall, robbed 2 banks, a train, a trolley station, became sheriffs, slaughtered hoardes of O'driscolls and other famous gangs, multiple gunfights in the middle of town, pitted 2 famous family's against each other, and many other glaring obvious things.
I do still believe Micah was the rat, but it's very plausible they only picked him up after Guarma. The gang left a trail of dead bodies behind everywhere they went. As for the other tips offs, they could have just trusted the wrong individuals, with, leads on robberies.
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u/The_quest_for_wisdom Jan 16 '21
a train,
A train? Try three. There was the O'driscoll bond robbery they stole the plans for, the train they stopped with the oil wagon to rob the passengers, and then the train they got the army payroll off of in Chapter 6.
Then they blew up a railroad bridge for good measure.
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u/skizwald Jan 16 '21
I was just going off the top of my head. Just a few examples of the trail of destruction they left in their path.
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u/The_quest_for_wisdom Jan 16 '21
Oh yes. Their version of 'laying low' is not far removed from setting up a neon sign with an arrow above their camp and renting out billboard ads to let everyone know they're in the area.
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u/jordan_bris Jan 12 '21
Theres a theory that Abigail was the real rat and that's why you dont see her during the bank heist and why she kills milton at the end so he doesnt expose her
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 19 '21
You're onto something, but the catch is, Abigail knew that John was obligated to participate in the robbery. She still loved John despite her actions. She would indirectly cause John to be killed, leaving Jack with no father, and possibly no Mother if she thought Milton was going to kill her too for even being an associate.
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u/jordan_bris Jan 19 '21
But the pinkertons could have easily just killed john like they did lenny and hosea. By working with them Abigail might have insured his safety as a price for her help
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u/andrecinno Jan 21 '21
Insured his safety? He was bound to be hanged.
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u/jordan_bris Jan 21 '21
I thought he was just put in the big prison.was that not the alternative to hanging because he was in there for a while
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u/andrecinno Jan 21 '21
He was supposed to hang some time after you bust him out.
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u/jordan_bris Jan 21 '21
Well there goes that theory. I still always thought it was micah but it was a fun one to contemplate
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u/toyo555 Jan 13 '21
I think the entire point is that Micah's betrayal wasn't that necessary, and that the Pinkertons were chasing them hard simply because of the times. The era known as the Wild West is widely recognized to be a period between 1865 and 1895, and this game is set in 1899. The times simply caught up to them, while Dutch didn't want to accept it and continued acting recklessly as if they were still in their prime. And it's not even how Dutch becomes reckless at the end of the game, right from the start you can see that he's way to care free, like how they were still holed up in Colter, hiding from the Pinkertons and suddenly they decided to rob a train.
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u/Hobosapiens2403 Aug 03 '24
Abigail was first the rat till the bank robbery in St Denis, and after Micah
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u/Jackyboi42069 Jan 12 '21
But they only say Micah was the rat when Milton is about to kill Arthur, so why would he lie about Micah?
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
I feel like the Pinkertons mightve struck a deal with Arthur, like they did with John.
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u/bbbbbbbbbw Jan 12 '21
Ever noticed his Dutch is never in trouble himself directly really with the pinkertons
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 19 '21
Yea. He's never in trouble. He didn't shoot up pinkertons in Annesburg, Blackwater, Saint Denis, Beaver Hollow, and Milton wasn't focused on Dutch at all. /s
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u/regularjoeseph Jan 12 '21
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but you can find a newspaper scrap of Dutch's wanted poster at Micah's camp in the mountains just outside of strawberry after you break him out of jail in chapter 2, if you return later. This may be a nod to the fact that Micah was the rat all along . I also question if blackwater was a set up as it allued to that it was Micah's job and information that led them to try to rob the ferry.
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u/ironwolf425 Xbox One Jan 12 '21
i made a theory a while back about mac callander possibly ratting about the blackwater heist and faking his death in exchange for his freedom, very similar to what michael did in gta 5
i can link it if i can go back and find it
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u/MissSadie_Lady Jan 12 '21
That would be really interesting, especially because I wonder who we’re going to play in RDR3. The RDR3 epilogue would have the entire gang in Colter, so you wouldn’t really be able to free roam once you finished the story. But if Mac faked his death for freedom, you could continue playing after the boat heist.
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u/ironwolf425 Xbox One Jan 12 '21
yeah that’s what i was thinking, it could help open up the plot for a prequel
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u/Dark-Pukicho Jan 12 '21
It could go the complete opposite direction and have you play as Mac, I think that’d be neat.
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u/andrecinno Jan 21 '21
Chances are there won't be an RDR3. Probably just gonna change characters/period.
I hope, at least... They already told a full story.
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Feb 08 '21
This is literally what I’ve been trying to verbalise for a while with no success lol, I feel like that’s what the story is leading towards. I think his betrayal would be out of love for someone, i.e. an out-of-camp girlfriend to ensure her safety and their freedom together. It’s an interesting take on what Arthur and Mary could have had if Arthur had taken Milton’s offer whilst being reminiscent of John’s story too. It would show how the same situation ended up playing out so differently for them all. Perhaps in the end, Mac struggled to rat on the gang because he feared for the safety of his brother, Davey and therefore he turned his back on the deal and sacrificed himself. In typical Red Dead style, the player is left feeling depressed because Davey dies anyway and it feels like the sacrifice was made in vain.
Bill tells Uncle that Mac was a “heartless son of a bitch but he had a good heart” which is kind of how Arthur was sold to us in the beginning. I feel like when they were writing the game, they definitely had some sort of potential RDR3 plot figured out so that everything would make sense in RDR2. Having said that, I don’t think I can handle falling in love with another handsome video game cowboy ffs.
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u/SoloxFly Jan 12 '21
My last playthrough I didn't get a horse. Ran all the way back to the camp and missed out on the ride back. Dumbest shit I've ever done, would not recommend.
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u/MagicalMarsBars Jan 12 '21
I think Micah was always the rat. Milton said “he has been a good boy ever since,” about Micah after saying that they found him after guarma. I think the was helping the Pinkertons but wasn’t reliable and was quite inconsistent with his assistance. I think you might be right about the horse since they probably were having a meeting in the bar. This might also be why Micah was barely in fights with pinkertons. Micah fought O’driscolls, the greys, the Braithwaites and Cornwall but he almost never was in fights with the actual Pinkertons. So I think that Micah was always the rat but was just never too reliable until chapter 6
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u/Bipedleek Jan 12 '21
The pinkertons didn’t need a rat before Guam, the gang was super brazen and I doesn’t take a genius to figure out that bank robbers would rob the big bank
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u/PolishNinja909 Jan 12 '21
Exactly. I don't think people realize just how effective the real Pinkerton Detective Agency was. They knew that the gang was in Lemoyne, they literally left a town ablaze after they left Rhodes. Any street cop could probably surmise that the gang, which is known for robbing banks and has been spotted nearby, might try to rob the bank. The agents were probably basing themselves out of Saint Denis when they moved into Lemoyne, as it would be the easiest place to get resources. They were clearly working in collaboration with the largest police agency in the region. The gang rode into town, in force, in their Sunday best, with guns. All that would have to happen is some street cop saw the gang, informed his higher-ups and they went to intercept them at the bank with the agents. This is seriously basic police work, not rocket science. No snitches needed. Also backed up by the work of agents from the most prolific, effective and highly trained private detective agency in the country.
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u/gutturalmuse Jan 12 '21
I feel like Micah was such an obvious snitch that he wasn’t actually the snitch - that he was likely loyal to Dutch the entire time. My memory is fuzzy since I finished my last playthrough to chapter 6 over a year ago, but I like the theory someone posed here that Molly used to run with the O’Driscolls and was possibly the real rat in the beginning, as she’s seen getting more and more irritable as time goes on, not to mention she sees herself as objectively superior to the rest of the girls at camp, talks to Arthur at one point about loyalty, etc.
I also like the theory of Abigail being the final rat, as it wasn’t out of deceit for the gang but out of anger that Jack was kidnapped and life put at extreme risk by the gang - making her desperate to find an escape for her, John and Jack through any means possible.
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u/ImAgIrAfFe72 Jan 12 '21 edited Jan 12 '21
Yeah, I get you; I think I lean more towards the belief that Micah WAS the snitch because of how awful he was and I kind of wanna pin the blame for everything on him, but woah! I’ve heard your first point before but that one about Abigail is really interesting
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u/pm-me-turtle-nudes Jan 12 '21
i buy into the abigail ratting to protect john theory it makes sense
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Jan 12 '21
But why does Abigail get captured and tied up / jailed? You'd think they would leave the rat as long as they can
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u/KingWhiteVll Jan 12 '21
Maybe they were expecting Arthur or Dutch to go for her? Obviously Arthur and Sadie did, while Milton was still there. I feel they could have potentially just used her as bait, but that feels like a far reach, since she would seem like an inconsequential gang member to them
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Jan 12 '21
It does make a lot of sense though, Rockstar might have foreshadowed it by the O'driscoll mission with leading Dutch into a trap
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u/pm-me-turtle-nudes Jan 12 '21
fair point i haven’t played the game in a long time so i’ll play through it again and get back to you
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Jan 12 '21
Tbh it's been a while for me too, I'm pretty sure if I play through it again with the theory in mind, I'd think it's her pretty quickly
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u/Wildcat_twister12 Jan 12 '21
Cause the Pinkerton’s just decided to double cross her, they want the whole pie not just a few pieces at that point
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Jan 12 '21
Abigail was an extremely inconsequential member of the gang compared to the ones they were after though. They were willing to cut a deal with Arthur who was one of the high profile members of the gang, why would they give him better treatment than Abigail?
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u/ironwolf425 Xbox One Jan 12 '21
the only thing i don’t like about abigail being the final rat was the fact that she would be putting john and jack at risk
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u/Kaneon Jan 12 '21
Micah being a rat would make two, as (Insert her name here) was shot after revealing she snitched.
I do believe there’s another snitch in the gang, and for a wild theory we could imply Pearson getting ownership of a store so soon after the events could hint he was assisted.
Pearson would’ve been seen with the gang at their camp, so what if the Pinkertons offered him a business and full freedom for information....
... to add more fuel, John meets Pearson which could later be relayed that J.M is still around in NH
Pearson theory isn’t something I fully believe, just a thought
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u/venusunusis Jan 12 '21
Well maybe Pearson's wife was already owning the store.
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u/Kaneon Jan 12 '21
Pearson could be a gold-digger.
Idk though. If she owned the store, then she hired someone to work it for the main campaign.
If her family owned it, father passing it to daughter, then I feel Pearson would have a quick dialogue piece along the lines of, “.. then I met this great girl and, luckily for me, her father was passing the business!”
I like to think he learn from Cripps’ Trading Co. and go rich quick
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Jan 12 '21
She could have bought it after the shoot out not while the gang was around. There's a reasonable gap.
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Jan 12 '21 edited Jan 12 '21
That one about Molly has been done to death. She didn't snitch. She said it cos she was drunk, her head is massively screwed up (you can watch her mental state deteriorate across the game) and to get at Dutch.
Pearson is the least obtrusive member of the gang. As we find out, he likes peace and quiet. He keeps to himself a fair bit. He doesn't go into town causing trouble - we know he goes out, we know he never gets into trouble. At Horseshoe Overlook they don't know who John is and he's been around and high profile. They give the rest of them 3 days to disappear. They clearly have no papers on the others and never really chase up anyone they don't have anything on. There's no value to it. Also the more you dig into Pearson's character by spending time with him, he's a pretty straightforward character. Just wants somewhere to have a peaceful life.
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u/ImAgIrAfFe72 Jan 12 '21
That’s a pretty great idea, it is implied that Pearson’s unhappy in the gang so I wouldn’t put it past him. Good thinking :)
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u/KrennicTM Jan 12 '21
But the guards who are with Cornwall in The Sheeps and The Goats are not Pinkertons, they're his private company security detail
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u/isyankar1979 Jan 12 '21 edited Jan 12 '21
The Pinkertons throughout the game have a hard time catching up during the gang's crimes. Or, they did catch up, but couldnt engage at will because of "acting within the confines of the law" as Milton says to Cornwall and Cornwall says stick your laws up your ass. John says "never should have gone after Bronte, Dutch" during the heist. Maybe because that was the first politician they killed, Pinkertons after that started killing even already captured members (Hosea) in cold blood. So even if Micah talked before, they did until that point, left it at just information without open combat. I think they must have. Lemme explain.
If the Pinkertons only lost trace after the gang left the US, picked up Micah after Guarma, with no prior arrangements (there cannot be any since the heist, because no one knew they would sail off), that must be the first time they had a sit down since the heist at least. Or the first time ever according to Milton.
TLDR/conclusion: After Guarma, how do they just miraculously find Micah in the wilderness somewhere on his own? They must have set up a safehouse before and said "Mr Bell, after the heist, go here to meet our undercover agent posing as a blah blah." So, Micah must have talked to them before the heist?
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 19 '21
Or, Micah went into Saint Denis on purpose to get caught. They wouldn't shoot him on sight because that'd be a major blow to them and it closes the opportunity of them gaining information. If he's not there for information, he'll get shot anyway.
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u/isyankar1979 Jan 20 '21
When he gets to Saint Dennis, it would be the local police qho catches him though. And they wouldnt have a reason to call the Pinkertons. Micah would be just a typical outlaw to them.
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 20 '21
No there were definitely Pinkerton patrols at that time.
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u/isyankar1979 Jan 20 '21
And Micah approached one and said "pssttt Im gonna sell out the Van der Linde gang?" Does not seem impossible tbh.
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 20 '21
They'd know who he was by then. He robbed the bank, he was in Blackwater, he was at clemens point. You'd think Milton or Ross would have said to look out for him as he's arguably the most dangerous member.
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u/isyankar1979 Jan 20 '21
Wouldnt the Pinkertons shoot to kill after the heist though? The first time they catch up to the gang after the heist/Guarma, they shoot up the camp with a machine gun.
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 20 '21
That is true, but that was the whole gang. I guess its really up for interpretation
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
Maybe not. There's also that 1 week where micah was alone and nothing happened, so he probably didn't snitch. Theres a lot of things that makes me think micah wasn't the snitch but someone else
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u/ImAgIrAfFe72 Jan 12 '21
True- that’s a very valid point, although you can find Dutch’s wanted poster at Micah’s camp site if that’s the time you meant when he was alone
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u/The_Nug_King Jan 12 '21
Maybe Micah had Dutch's wanted poster cause he saw it in a town(probably strawberry) and took it so that no one else would go looking for him
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
I'm not sure, it was after the strawberry massacre, so again I feel like he didnr snitch then. Like that massacre was at the level of all the other town massacre but for some reason the Pinkerton didn't show up?
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u/Tron_1981 Jan 12 '21
Well, he wasn't caught by the Pinkerton at that point either (nor did they make it to Strawberry after he was arrested), so he didn't have any reason to snitch. As far as the sheriff knew, he was just a guy he caught for murder, it didn't seem that he was aware of his ties to the Van der Linde Gang. Had the Pinkertons made it into Strawberry before Arthur broke him out, it would've changed things.
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u/titanlmao Jan 12 '21
What i mean is that the Pinkerton would be lured there by that massive massacre. And I doubt that they wouldn't recognize a micah bell poster.
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u/Tron_1981 Jan 12 '21
Yeah, but Arthur and Micah were long gone by that point. The Pinkertons caught up to the gang after some of their activities most likely caught their attention (especially the train robbery). And as for the Strawberry cops and Micah, he was already scheduled to be hanged for double murder, and they didn't seem to have any interest in the rest of the gang (and there's no reason why they would either).
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u/ImAgIrAfFe72 Jan 12 '21
Mm I see what you mean, but, the Pinkertons, I think, are portrayed as very rash and brutal in the game- a result over means kinda organisation so perhaps they didn’t appear so they wouldn’t have to pursue Micah- despite the killings. And I think the difference between the Strawberry massacre and other town fights is that Strawberry is very small in comparison to others so the law is probably limited there and I don’t think the Pinkertons turn up elsewhere, do they? (Excluding stuff with Cornwall etc...)
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u/Metallem Jan 12 '21
Well observed! It makes lot of sense for me. On my 3rd playthrough I will look after it more closely.
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u/Eagle_Of_Justice Jan 12 '21
What if you go in the saloon? Does something happen? If it did then I think someone would have already found it. And: micah was the first to arrive on Lakay, he actually arrived before Arthur
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u/JStagg88 Jan 12 '21
That’s interesting because I was playing the part last night when Dutch killed Cornwall, gunfight ensues, and they steal horses from the wagon. I think most, if not all, horses pulling wagons were Clydesdale type but when Micah and Dutch rode off I noticed the horse Micah was riding looked similar to the one Arthur stole in Van Horn, at least by the markings. I could be wrong it was a quick moment of realization and didn’t think much of it until now.
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u/J_rd_nn Jan 19 '21
They use the same horse textures for horse breed and coats. If you use the grey Appaloosa and compare it to Charles, they have the same markings.
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u/vmvikin Jan 12 '21
Idk but I feel like Micah was a rat from the beginning. This is just a wild guess but if you read arthurs journal you see that Dutch picked up Micah at the Blackwater saloon and Arthur and Hosea was'nt so sure about him. I feel like he worked for the pinkertons the whole time which is how they kept finding the gang. In chapter 2 and 3 he stayed away from camp alot saying he doesnt wanna see dutch which is a bit weird imo. This is a wild theory but I thought I might as well post it. If anyone wants to prove this completely wrong please do.
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u/Ordinary-Easy Jan 15 '21
I like to think Micah was in-directly working for the Pinkertons and was working with the O'Driscals ever since he got trapped in that Strawberry jail. He was probably feeling Colin's men's information about Dutch and what Dutch was planning hoping to get the sort of information and protection necessary for Micah to be able to escape the Pinkerton's wraith. When Colin got hanged the Pinkertons decided to pick up the original source.
That being said I don't think Micah leaked everything the gang was doing especially when it comes to the St-Denis bank robbery. I think Dutch was just getting more and more reckless and after Dutch killed Anglo Bronte the Pinkertons knew based on how Dutch was operating that he was going to try and rob the biggest target in the city which was the bank.
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u/ryucavelier Jan 16 '21
When Milton stormed the camp in Beaver Hollow and took Abigail, it’s likely from Micah’s tip. If Arthur hadn’t learned of Micah from Milton, he likely would have left with Abigail and Sadie thus dooming John. I’m guessing Arthur went back was because he suspected Micah was going to cash Dutch in thus giving Dutch one last chance. Dutch of course blew it when John staggered in.
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u/zadidoll Jan 19 '21
Micah came to the gang six months prior to the start of Chapter 1. From the moment Micah came things began to go sideways for the gang. I still believe Micah was a plant BUT not. Pinkerton plant. I believe Micah was sent by Colm to drive a wedge between Dutch, Hosea, & most importantly Arthur, as he was the enforcer & basically bodyguard. This is why eventually it became about Colm capturing Arthur. Micah did his best to drive that wedge further & further which led to Dutch not going to save Arthur. We know by this point, Colm was working with the Pinkertons & flat out said so.
Then after Guarma, Micah was caught by the Pinkertons & was out to save his own hide. Pinkertons knew of Micah from Colm, who had sent Micah to Dutch as a mole. I now think that Micah didn’t work directly for the Pinkertons until after Guarma but did indirectly via Colm.
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u/fyrione Jan 25 '21
Nice thought & possible. I can tell you I avoided stealing that horse cuz I had an incredible temp horse I hadn't stabled yet but at level 4 bonded so I didn't want to get another horse. Finally after realizing I had to get on a horse or take fucking forever I did (byebye my in registered baby ;'( ) I stole a random Morgan or something (I looked for the other one at that point but it was gone) and didn't lose my honor, so think that part might take a small bite out of your theory
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u/JoaquinLF7 Jan 11 '21
That’s very interesting, but im not certain everyone was dropped off at van horn, since arthur is the only one on the boat