Saturn is one of the most well-written hypocritical frauds I've seen in a while.

[u/sami_newgate]

Despite proclaiming that he is a god, This guy just proves that he is a human every time he appears on screen.

He is so insecure and he needs so bad to prove that he is superior to others, even someone who is a slave like Kuma. Which is contrasted by the other gorousei who are pretty self-confident and don't need to prove anything. He fits the theme of Human contradiction so well, which is the main theme of the arc.

Everything he does gets back at him, He experimented on Ginny but ended up making a mini nika, He ordered the wiping of Kuma's personality but he was still able to protect bonney with willpower alone, and finally he allowed luffy to escape by refusing to destroy Emet.

It is ironic. in Kuma's flashback, He told him that he can't understand why humans always try to do what they are told not to do, But he ends up dying because of disobeying orders and refusing to destroy the robot. It was because of his human need to prove himself that he disobeyed orders just like the people he consider insects. It is poetic.

He is a horrible person but an amazing character. I love him so much.

RIP my fraud king.

[u/InvaderDJ]

I don’t think Saturn will be alone in this. All the Celestial Dragons that we have seen for a long time have proved they are human with all the flaws (and sometimes benefits) that brings.

He isn’t as soft as the generic CDs and is somewhat intelligent but that’s about it. I hope we see more of the Elders so we can make the dichotomy even more clear.

[u/sami_newgate → u/InvaderDJ]

The celestial dragons are puppets. They don’t have free will. So they are very different from the gorousei.

[u/InvaderDJ → u/sami_newgate]

I wouldn’t call them puppets. They are children with unimaginable privilege and wealth. They don’t really do much of anything but do and take what they want knowing that if anyone tries to stop them they have powerful protection.

I’m actually curious on why the Elders and Imu even allow them to exist. They really contribute nothing.

[u/sami_newgate → u/InvaderDJ]

You don’t have to be curious. The reason was told to us multiple times actually.

You saw what happened to mjosgard. They are not even allowed to be good people. They are emptied and dehumanized through systematic brain washing. That’s why Doflamingo became like that. After all the brainwashing about being a god. He couldn’t process the life of humans and could never accept it.

The celestial dragons are a symbol for control and order. They are higher beings who are apparently capable of doing everything.

There is a reason that made Oda introduce them in the summit war saga. Because there the theme of the symbol was explored in depth. The celestial dragons are like roger or Whitebeard for the pirates. They are empowering figures. Their existence ensures peace.

In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.

[u/InvaderDJ → u/sami_newgate]

You saw what happened to mjosgard. They are not even allowed to be good people. They are emptied and dehumanized through systematic brain washing. That’s why Doflamingo became like that. After all the brainwashing about being a god. He couldn’t process the life of humans and could never accept it.

But what does that get Imu? The generic CDs contribute nothing and don’t help their agenda. They are just…there. Being selfish children who have been told from birth that they are gods.

CDs like the Holy Knights and Elders are actually useful. They actually protect the CDs and make actual laws and rules. But the generic ones like Charlos don’t seem to do anything. They’re actually liabilities.

[u/Arkayjiya → u/InvaderDJ]

He gets a class system for control's sake and a production system for Elders. He needs people who thinks other beings are subhuman (or humans if they're god themselves) to make those in a reliable way. Same for the Holy Knight. There's a limit to what most marines would be able to accept but not people chosen out of the CD themselves.

[u/sami_newgate → u/InvaderDJ]

As I said, there existence as an entity is enough as a symbol of order and control. Some of them are selected to have actual productive roles.

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.

Gorosei are literally selected from CDs, as are God's knights. Imu keeps them around because Imu has to rule from the shadows and needs loyal underlings to be the face of WG. CDs themselves are an exploration of inefficiency and dangers of a hereditary, authoritarian rule where those who attain power just on basis of their birth aren't really the brightest bunch even if there are handful of them who end up being capable/powerful (like Garling and Gorosei).

If Imu being an actual devil ends up being true then it's very possible that whatever deal Imu made with monarchs of 20 kingdoms means only they and their descendants can access a part of Imu's power (possibly how Gorosei are created), hence Imu's need to keep them around despite how depraved and idiotic they are in the hope that handful in every generation would prove useful for Imu's plans.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work

Fiction can be multi-faceted. The CD explores more than one topic. But the main one is brainwashing

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work

It'll very much work regardless. CDs themselves are humans regardless of their pretensions otherwise. And greed of elite few for power dooming rest of the planet works irrespective of if Imu is human or non-human.

But the main one is brainwashing

Wrong word to use, they're indoctrinated into a specific ideology that proclaims their supremacy of over others, essentially a form of racism. That's not brainwashing.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

It is brainwashing.

Look at Doflamingo’s story. He can’t even process a life different from what he learned that he deserves to live.

Mjosgard literally died for trying to be a good person.

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

If anything Doflamingo illustrates the point I'm making clearly. He was a born psycho hence he took to CD ideology so strongly to the point that's got the biggest God complex of all CDs bar Imu. Story of Mingo and Corazon is an exploration of nature vs nurture. Mingo was a psycho and then got the supremacist teaching of CDs afterwards he was raised by criminals like Diamante, he grew up learning cruelty and entitlement. Corazon however took after his father, being more humble and sensitive. Then afterwards he had an ideal father figure in Sengoku leading to him growing up to be an upstanding man. Mjosgard got executed for opposing an authoritarian, supremacist society by supporting minorities and pirates, quite literally a case of racism which is a strong theme in OP, has nothing to do with brainwashing. CDs pretending they are gods and above humans is literally drawn from innumerable societies in the world where aristocrats and rulers proclaimed their divinity and/or claimed they are descended from gods, there were tons such cultures in South Asia and South East Asia also, that's where Oda is drawing his inspiration from.

The fact that good CDs like Homing, Corazon, Mjosgard exist proves that the supremacy of CDs is an ideology that their culture upholds and indoctrinates them from childhood, and they brutally persecute those who go against the grain, a pretty well known feature of authorisation govt. All you've said is repeating your claim without being able to substantiate it with anything. Whereas I'm drawing on themes and ideas that Oda has explored throughout the manga and continues to do so. There's literally 0 evidence in manga of brainwashing of CDs regarding their supremacist beliefs whereas there's tons of prove its a cultural artifact of their society.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

Sorry. Anyone who think that doffy is born a psycho needs to work on their reading comprehension. Doffy is a normal human. He more human than any other character in the series, that’s literally the point of his story. If you reduced it to “born psycho” then it is your problem.

As I said to you, fiction can be multifaceted. Oda already showed the aristocrats in goa kingdom. But with the celestial dragons, he went deeper into psychology and philosophy.

I don’t know man. There is clearly a problem with your understanding of OP. If the WG was really supremacist, then why did they declare friendship with the fishman island? Why did they gave them a seat in the democratic council?

Your problem is that everything is simple black and white for you, you ignore nuance.

There is difference in nature in cora and doffy indeed. The difference is present in the mental capacity department, not evil.

Doffy was smarter, he wanted to understand everything and he questions everything. While cora was a simple reliant kid who doesn’t even talk much.

You are missing a thing, mjosgard was just like charlos, but he changed. This is probably the same case with homing, at some point, he was just like other CDs.

I mean it is easy to be confident in shallow takes. Since you don’t put much effort into them.

Think my friend, use your brain, the world government as a whole are friends with fishmen, but the CDs aren’t allowed to be friends with fishmen. If this was really a cultural code, then why didn’t they banish mjosgard? Why did they go as far as killing him? What is the meaning of lucci line “Gods aren’t bound by logic”

Even from a stylistic POV, why is garling and the gorousei are drawn as raw handsome old men instead of ugly bastards ? Why are they capable of thinking differently from normal CDs? Because CDs are just puppets in their hands, they are brainwashed to be gods.

You just need to think

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

You're the one who lacks reading comprehension. Doffy and Corazon received the same education, yet the capacity of cruelty that he possessed at such young age is at odds with it simply being brainwashing. There are people who display psychopathic tendencies from young age, that doesn't make them less human. You keep talking about me not understanding OP and yet you show a staggering lack of imagination yourself.

If the WG was really supremacist, then why did they declare friendship with the fishman island? Why did they gave them a seat in the democratic council?

Being supremacist and racist doesn't mean you can't establish diplomatic connections with those you view as lesser. Charlos's treatment of Shirahoshi amply shows that he doesn't see her as equal. Where's your reading comprehension huh? You accuse me of seeing things black and white but all you're saying is they were brainwashed, it doesn't get more simplistic than that yet you're incapable to seeing things from other perspectives.

You are missing a thing, mjosgard was just like charlos, but he changed. This is probably the same case with homing, at some point, he was just like other CDs.

That means they're capable of introspection and rising above their cultural norms, all of that supports my reasoning. Instead of being so self righteous and stroking you dick, do some thinking yourself.

then why didn’t they banish mjosgard? Why did they go as far as killing him?

They didn't banish and executed him because he protected lesser beings who assaulted a CD, that is high crime in a society which is as authoritarian as WG and CDs. Your questions display such basic lack of understanding and none of these questions are answerable by your own simplistic they're brainwashed theory. It's pointless to talk to someone who can't respond with literary analysis and keeps repeating I'm right I'm right with nary an evidence.

[u/sami_newgate → u/sami_newgate]

u/LeGama

[u/LeGama → u/sami_newgate]

I'm very curious to learn more about the CDs, I mean they've always been shown to be incompetent rich children, but I always assumed they had such a level of political power and money that the government protected them. But with all the recent developments I'm just thinking like why does IMU care? Just keep around the competent ones like Garling and kill the rest.

My working theory is that within each family there's core head members that are haki gods and could wipe out the Gorosai, and those people are the ones who don't let others touch their families. I mean 20 kingdoms, if there's just 2-3 per family that's a 40-60 army of people who would fight 5 Gorosai. Also because of genes and what not, maybe even the lazy CDs have prodigy children that can develop conquers haki.

[u/sami_newgate → u/LeGama]

The reason was shown to us. I will mention you in the comment that I just wrote