Saturn is one of the most well-written hypocritical frauds I've seen in a while.

[u/sami_newgate]

Despite proclaiming that he is a god, This guy just proves that he is a human every time he appears on screen.

He is so insecure and he needs so bad to prove that he is superior to others, even someone who is a slave like Kuma. Which is contrasted by the other gorousei who are pretty self-confident and don't need to prove anything. He fits the theme of Human contradiction so well, which is the main theme of the arc.

Everything he does gets back at him, He experimented on Ginny but ended up making a mini nika, He ordered the wiping of Kuma's personality but he was still able to protect bonney with willpower alone, and finally he allowed luffy to escape by refusing to destroy Emet.

It is ironic. in Kuma's flashback, He told him that he can't understand why humans always try to do what they are told not to do, But he ends up dying because of disobeying orders and refusing to destroy the robot. It was because of his human need to prove himself that he disobeyed orders just like the people he consider insects. It is poetic.

He is a horrible person but an amazing character. I love him so much.

RIP my fraud king.

[u/InvaderDJ]

I wouldn’t call them puppets. They are children with unimaginable privilege and wealth. They don’t really do much of anything but do and take what they want knowing that if anyone tries to stop them they have powerful protection.

I’m actually curious on why the Elders and Imu even allow them to exist. They really contribute nothing.

[u/sami_newgate → u/InvaderDJ]

You don’t have to be curious. The reason was told to us multiple times actually.

You saw what happened to mjosgard. They are not even allowed to be good people. They are emptied and dehumanized through systematic brain washing. That’s why Doflamingo became like that. After all the brainwashing about being a god. He couldn’t process the life of humans and could never accept it.

The celestial dragons are a symbol for control and order. They are higher beings who are apparently capable of doing everything.

There is a reason that made Oda introduce them in the summit war saga. Because there the theme of the symbol was explored in depth. The celestial dragons are like roger or Whitebeard for the pirates. They are empowering figures. Their existence ensures peace.

In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.

Gorosei are literally selected from CDs, as are God's knights. Imu keeps them around because Imu has to rule from the shadows and needs loyal underlings to be the face of WG. CDs themselves are an exploration of inefficiency and dangers of a hereditary, authoritarian rule where those who attain power just on basis of their birth aren't really the brightest bunch even if there are handful of them who end up being capable/powerful (like Garling and Gorosei).

If Imu being an actual devil ends up being true then it's very possible that whatever deal Imu made with monarchs of 20 kingdoms means only they and their descendants can access a part of Imu's power (possibly how Gorosei are created), hence Imu's need to keep them around despite how depraved and idiotic they are in the hope that handful in every generation would prove useful for Imu's plans.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work

Fiction can be multi-faceted. The CD explores more than one topic. But the main one is brainwashing

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work

It'll very much work regardless. CDs themselves are humans regardless of their pretensions otherwise. And greed of elite few for power dooming rest of the planet works irrespective of if Imu is human or non-human.

But the main one is brainwashing

Wrong word to use, they're indoctrinated into a specific ideology that proclaims their supremacy of over others, essentially a form of racism. That's not brainwashing.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

It is brainwashing.

Look at Doflamingo’s story. He can’t even process a life different from what he learned that he deserves to live.

Mjosgard literally died for trying to be a good person.

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

If anything Doflamingo illustrates the point I'm making clearly. He was a born psycho hence he took to CD ideology so strongly to the point that's got the biggest God complex of all CDs bar Imu. Story of Mingo and Corazon is an exploration of nature vs nurture. Mingo was a psycho and then got the supremacist teaching of CDs afterwards he was raised by criminals like Diamante, he grew up learning cruelty and entitlement. Corazon however took after his father, being more humble and sensitive. Then afterwards he had an ideal father figure in Sengoku leading to him growing up to be an upstanding man. Mjosgard got executed for opposing an authoritarian, supremacist society by supporting minorities and pirates, quite literally a case of racism which is a strong theme in OP, has nothing to do with brainwashing. CDs pretending they are gods and above humans is literally drawn from innumerable societies in the world where aristocrats and rulers proclaimed their divinity and/or claimed they are descended from gods, there were tons such cultures in South Asia and South East Asia also, that's where Oda is drawing his inspiration from.

The fact that good CDs like Homing, Corazon, Mjosgard exist proves that the supremacy of CDs is an ideology that their culture upholds and indoctrinates them from childhood, and they brutally persecute those who go against the grain, a pretty well known feature of authorisation govt. All you've said is repeating your claim without being able to substantiate it with anything. Whereas I'm drawing on themes and ideas that Oda has explored throughout the manga and continues to do so. There's literally 0 evidence in manga of brainwashing of CDs regarding their supremacist beliefs whereas there's tons of prove its a cultural artifact of their society.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

Sorry. Anyone who think that doffy is born a psycho needs to work on their reading comprehension. Doffy is a normal human. He more human than any other character in the series, that’s literally the point of his story. If you reduced it to “born psycho” then it is your problem.

As I said to you, fiction can be multifaceted. Oda already showed the aristocrats in goa kingdom. But with the celestial dragons, he went deeper into psychology and philosophy.

I don’t know man. There is clearly a problem with your understanding of OP. If the WG was really supremacist, then why did they declare friendship with the fishman island? Why did they gave them a seat in the democratic council?

Your problem is that everything is simple black and white for you, you ignore nuance.

There is difference in nature in cora and doffy indeed. The difference is present in the mental capacity department, not evil.

Doffy was smarter, he wanted to understand everything and he questions everything. While cora was a simple reliant kid who doesn’t even talk much.

You are missing a thing, mjosgard was just like charlos, but he changed. This is probably the same case with homing, at some point, he was just like other CDs.

I mean it is easy to be confident in shallow takes. Since you don’t put much effort into them.

Think my friend, use your brain, the world government as a whole are friends with fishmen, but the CDs aren’t allowed to be friends with fishmen. If this was really a cultural code, then why didn’t they banish mjosgard? Why did they go as far as killing him? What is the meaning of lucci line “Gods aren’t bound by logic”

Even from a stylistic POV, why is garling and the gorousei are drawn as raw handsome old men instead of ugly bastards ? Why are they capable of thinking differently from normal CDs? Because CDs are just puppets in their hands, they are brainwashed to be gods.

You just need to think

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

You're the one who lacks reading comprehension. Doffy and Corazon received the same education, yet the capacity of cruelty that he possessed at such young age is at odds with it simply being brainwashing. There are people who display psychopathic tendencies from young age, that doesn't make them less human. You keep talking about me not understanding OP and yet you show a staggering lack of imagination yourself.

If the WG was really supremacist, then why did they declare friendship with the fishman island? Why did they gave them a seat in the democratic council?

Being supremacist and racist doesn't mean you can't establish diplomatic connections with those you view as lesser. Charlos's treatment of Shirahoshi amply shows that he doesn't see her as equal. Where's your reading comprehension huh? You accuse me of seeing things black and white but all you're saying is they were brainwashed, it doesn't get more simplistic than that yet you're incapable to seeing things from other perspectives.

You are missing a thing, mjosgard was just like charlos, but he changed. This is probably the same case with homing, at some point, he was just like other CDs.

That means they're capable of introspection and rising above their cultural norms, all of that supports my reasoning. Instead of being so self righteous and stroking you dick, do some thinking yourself.

then why didn’t they banish mjosgard? Why did they go as far as killing him?

They didn't banish and executed him because he protected lesser beings who assaulted a CD, that is high crime in a society which is as authoritarian as WG and CDs. Your questions display such basic lack of understanding and none of these questions are answerable by your own simplistic they're brainwashed theory. It's pointless to talk to someone who can't respond with literary analysis and keeps repeating I'm right I'm right with nary an evidence.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

Man, It is such a stupid take that makes me automatically disrespect the intelligence of those who come up with it.

It is because I spent literal days understanding each panel of doffy. So I can’t just accept people who completely shut down their mind and reduce everything.

Doffy never showed any capacity for cruelty lmao. In the flashback, he wanted slaves, he wanted to return to his older dress code. Things that he was taught that he deserves since born. An apparently homing himself didn’t do anything to stop it. So at some point, he was ok with it too. It was when Doflamingo lost everything that he couldn’t process what is happening to him. And his father was the only one to blame so he killed him using the gun that trebol gave to him. Any kid in his place might do that.

— this is so fucking stupid. That’s the point. Charlos doesn’t treat shirahoshi as an equal because he is brainwashed to consider himself a god who is above everyone. Everyone are simply tools for his enjoyment. The distinction between the CDs and the rest of the world government is the point. The WG are the ones who brought the fishmen to the holy land. Yet for the CDs specifically they executed who helped them. This sounds like a contradiction, except it is not. the CDs has special rules.

— They are capable of change lmao. The brainwashing I mean is through indoctrination and education. Not literal brainwashing through science or magic.

— you are so funny. Simplistic ? Your problem is that my explanation is too complex for you to understand, you don’t understand what I mean by brainwashing and you don’t understand the theme of the symbol which is one of the main themes of One Piece. The theme that defines the series since chapter one.

You think a philosophical theme like this is more simplistic than “they are aristocrats” which was explored in goa kingdom. You think saying doffy is a complex individual is more simplistic that saying he was born psycho.

I think I’ll give you the last chance.

Read the doffy flashback again, Oda focused on something with special presentation, which is doffy experiencing different forms of pain for the first time. Pain is what teaches humans to grow. When this is taken away from people, they turn into monsters.

3 or 4 years ago I theorized that for this to happen, they need to have special soldiers to preserve this utopia. And Oda responded with the holy knights, that’s why I am very confident in my understanding of it.

Doffy experiencing those things shock him to his core. But they turned him into the most human character in the series. Doffy lost in dressrosa because of his love for giola, if he let law kill her. He could take the strawhats as hostages, but no, his love and humanity were the reason for his downfall.

Remember in dressrosa. Doffy was constantly telling law and luffy that people are dying because of them! He claims to be a god yet he is trying so hard to find excuses to feel good about what he is doing, and when law called him out, he cringed at himself.

You just need to think

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

brainwashing I mean is through indoctrination and education. Not literal brainwashing through science or magic.

And this tells me that you really didnt read any of my comments or simply didn't understand what I was saying. The fact that you think I said CDs are how they are because they're just aristocrats tells me you lack basic reading comprehension and are way too narcissistic. Read my comments again and stop stroking your own damn ego all the time.

[u/sami_newgate → u/andii74]

What you said disregards the lack of agency on the CDs side.

They are not just a part of a toxic culture. They lack freewill and agency. They are nothing more than puppets.

It is systematic brainwashing.

The key is lucci’s line “Gods aren’t bound by logic”.

The celestial dragons are basically Oda’s way to criticize the “heaven on earth” that western countries want to achieve.

Humans who don’t experience pain or suffering can never be actual humans. They would be enpty shells.

[u/andii74 → u/sami_newgate]

They are not just a part of a toxic culture. They lack freewill and agency. They are nothing more than puppets.

Except the ones who manage to stop groupthink do show agency, we have no reason to think Mjosgard is the only CD who stood up to the system. What happens to him explains why there aren't more of them, they get executed. Again your obsession with systematic brainwashing doesn't actually make it more complex than the social and cultural indoctrination of CDs that I'm positing, because you're too narcissistic to actually see it because your last comment made it evident you didn't read anything I said except ranting about one part of my analysis of Doflamingo's character. You simply can't engage in conversation with people.

The celestial dragons are basically Oda’s way to criticize the “heaven on earth” that western countries want to achieve.

Except it's not. If CDs are brainwashed and lack agency then they're not the kind of society that Western countries want to achieve based on freedom of thought and speech, inclusive and diverse society, what of it is reflected in CD society? See you again demonstrate a very fundamental lack of understanding by drawing on a caricature of Western society.