r/OnePiece • u/sami_newgate • Sep 07 '24
Discussion Saturn is one of the most well-written hypocritical frauds I've seen in a while. Spoiler
Despite proclaiming that he is a god, This guy just proves that he is a human every time he appears on screen.
He is so insecure and he needs so bad to prove that he is superior to others, even someone who is a slave like Kuma. Which is contrasted by the other gorousei who are pretty self-confident and don't need to prove anything. He fits the theme of Human contradiction so well, which is the main theme of the arc.
Everything he does gets back at him, He experimented on Ginny but ended up making a mini nika, He ordered the wiping of Kuma's personality but he was still able to protect bonney with willpower alone, and finally he allowed luffy to escape by refusing to destroy Emet.
It is ironic. in Kuma's flashback, He told him that he can't understand why humans always try to do what they are told not to do, But he ends up dying because of disobeying orders and refusing to destroy the robot. It was because of his human need to prove himself that he disobeyed orders just like the people he consider insects. It is poetic.
He is a horrible person but an amazing character. I love him so much.
RIP my fraud king.
198
u/JE3MAN Sep 07 '24
At this point, if we are to get a bit of insight into the other's backstory like we did Saturn, I wouldn't be surprised if they turned out to all be hypocritical frauds too.
56
u/sami_newgate Sep 07 '24
Maybe but personally I think it is unique to saturn. the others will be humanized in different ways.
12
u/TravelingLlama Sep 08 '24
I wouldn’t be surprised if they turned out to all be hypocritical frauds too.
Can’t wait for Garling to be revealed to still care for shanks despite killing and stating mjosgard was lower than scum for helping pirates
105
u/ResidentMD317 Sep 08 '24
Saturn's secret research into ancient technology, and devil fruits hint at his innermost fear that he's is an insect whose life has been worthless. Basically he pursued time related devil fruit research because he needed to free himself from Imu's control, e.g. his immortality was always contingent on his usefulness.
The sapphire scale is likely what happened as an unintended side effect of trying to replicate Saturn's powers delegated to him by Imu. I think we'll learn more about devil fruits as we explore the Gorosei powers in the future.
Obviously, the time fruit research must have been pursued as a way to gain immortality without Imu. Saturn was likely looking to use the Ope Ope no mi at one point as well, but that slipped out of his hands as well.
Lastly, Saturn is probably the reason God Valley incident needed to be erased. He must have messed up big time that time as well.
34
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
That’s an interesting analysis. I wonder how Oda will approach him when we get flashbacks about the gourosei. I don’t know if he will ever touch upon those points again are not.
I need to reread the arc though. I am sure that there are a lot of hidden details
44
u/EDanials Sep 08 '24
I am assuming Saturn wasn't around during Imus time. None of them is alive besides IMU. So I see Imu seeing the robot and knowing what the robot and joyboys machines were capable of.
Saturn seeing it's destructive power and age made he want to have the power source. He wasn't aware that it could hold haki for 800 years.
I'd guess Imu semi knew and wanted it gone. Saturn said fk that let's study it and make ourselves stronger. He didn't know it held the power it did.
23
u/andii74 Sep 08 '24
He even says as much. Satun had no idea Emet was Joyboy's companion let alone the power of his haki because none of the Gorosei are from void century (power of Nika itself was a legend to them). Only Imu could've been aware of Emeth's identity and ordered him to be destroyed but Saturn was drawn to technology of the void century and ancient kingdom and couldn't bring himself to destroy it.
5
u/EDanials Sep 08 '24
Thanks for the better explanation
Yeah, I think it's not hard to miss but easy to overlook.
7
u/gnote2minix Cipher Pol Sep 08 '24
he is not wrong also, Vegapunk manages to recreate mother flame probably because of that..
1
u/EDanials Sep 08 '24
That was not proven. At most, he tried to use Mother Flame on esmth. However, I don't believe he said he took it from the robot. Rather, I tried to have something similar.
Edit: you could be right but so far it hasn't said if that was the case.
25
u/MikeTheNBAGuy76 Sep 08 '24
And Oda did the best possible thing and killed him off now that his character fulfilled his role and has nothing else to really add to the story.
16
u/InvaderDJ Void Month Survivor Sep 08 '24
I don’t think Saturn will be alone in this. All the Celestial Dragons that we have seen for a long time have proved they are human with all the flaws (and sometimes benefits) that brings.
He isn’t as soft as the generic CDs and is somewhat intelligent but that’s about it. I hope we see more of the Elders so we can make the dichotomy even more clear.
9
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
The celestial dragons are puppets. They don’t have free will. So they are very different from the gorousei.
8
u/InvaderDJ Void Month Survivor Sep 08 '24
I wouldn’t call them puppets. They are children with unimaginable privilege and wealth. They don’t really do much of anything but do and take what they want knowing that if anyone tries to stop them they have powerful protection.
I’m actually curious on why the Elders and Imu even allow them to exist. They really contribute nothing.
9
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
You don’t have to be curious. The reason was told to us multiple times actually.
You saw what happened to mjosgard. They are not even allowed to be good people. They are emptied and dehumanized through systematic brain washing. That’s why Doflamingo became like that. After all the brainwashing about being a god. He couldn’t process the life of humans and could never accept it.
The celestial dragons are a symbol for control and order. They are higher beings who are apparently capable of doing everything.
There is a reason that made Oda introduce them in the summit war saga. Because there the theme of the symbol was explored in depth. The celestial dragons are like roger or Whitebeard for the pirates. They are empowering figures. Their existence ensures peace.
In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.
6
u/InvaderDJ Void Month Survivor Sep 08 '24
You saw what happened to mjosgard. They are not even allowed to be good people. They are emptied and dehumanized through systematic brain washing. That’s why Doflamingo became like that. After all the brainwashing about being a god. He couldn’t process the life of humans and could never accept it.
But what does that get Imu? The generic CDs contribute nothing and don’t help their agenda. They are just…there. Being selfish children who have been told from birth that they are gods.
CDs like the Holy Knights and Elders are actually useful. They actually protect the CDs and make actual laws and rules. But the generic ones like Charlos don’t seem to do anything. They’re actually liabilities.
7
u/Arkayjiya Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
He gets a class system for control's sake and a production system for Elders. He needs people who thinks other beings are subhuman (or humans if they're god themselves) to make those in a reliable way. Same for the Holy Knight. There's a limit to what most marines would be able to accept but not people chosen out of the CD themselves.
7
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
As I said, there existence as an entity is enough as a symbol of order and control. Some of them are selected to have actual productive roles.
4
u/andii74 Sep 08 '24
In reverie, Lucci said “Gods aren’t bound by logic”. That’s why the celestial dragons were dehumanized. The gorousei and imu needed them to feel different from humans.
Gorosei are literally selected from CDs, as are God's knights. Imu keeps them around because Imu has to rule from the shadows and needs loyal underlings to be the face of WG. CDs themselves are an exploration of inefficiency and dangers of a hereditary, authoritarian rule where those who attain power just on basis of their birth aren't really the brightest bunch even if there are handful of them who end up being capable/powerful (like Garling and Gorosei).
If Imu being an actual devil ends up being true then it's very possible that whatever deal Imu made with monarchs of 20 kingdoms means only they and their descendants can access a part of Imu's power (possibly how Gorosei are created), hence Imu's need to keep them around despite how depraved and idiotic they are in the hope that handful in every generation would prove useful for Imu's plans.
1
u/sami_newgate Sep 09 '24
Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work
Fiction can be multi-faceted. The CD explores more than one topic. But the main one is brainwashing
1
u/andii74 Sep 09 '24
Nah, Imu would be a human 100%. Otherwise the message of one piece won’t work
It'll very much work regardless. CDs themselves are humans regardless of their pretensions otherwise. And greed of elite few for power dooming rest of the planet works irrespective of if Imu is human or non-human.
But the main one is brainwashing
Wrong word to use, they're indoctrinated into a specific ideology that proclaims their supremacy of over others, essentially a form of racism. That's not brainwashing.
1
u/sami_newgate Sep 09 '24
It is brainwashing.
Look at Doflamingo’s story. He can’t even process a life different from what he learned that he deserves to live.
Mjosgard literally died for trying to be a good person.
0
u/andii74 Sep 09 '24
If anything Doflamingo illustrates the point I'm making clearly. He was a born psycho hence he took to CD ideology so strongly to the point that's got the biggest God complex of all CDs bar Imu. Story of Mingo and Corazon is an exploration of nature vs nurture. Mingo was a psycho and then got the supremacist teaching of CDs afterwards he was raised by criminals like Diamante, he grew up learning cruelty and entitlement. Corazon however took after his father, being more humble and sensitive. Then afterwards he had an ideal father figure in Sengoku leading to him growing up to be an upstanding man. Mjosgard got executed for opposing an authoritarian, supremacist society by supporting minorities and pirates, quite literally a case of racism which is a strong theme in OP, has nothing to do with brainwashing. CDs pretending they are gods and above humans is literally drawn from innumerable societies in the world where aristocrats and rulers proclaimed their divinity and/or claimed they are descended from gods, there were tons such cultures in South Asia and South East Asia also, that's where Oda is drawing his inspiration from.
The fact that good CDs like Homing, Corazon, Mjosgard exist proves that the supremacy of CDs is an ideology that their culture upholds and indoctrinates them from childhood, and they brutally persecute those who go against the grain, a pretty well known feature of authorisation govt. All you've said is repeating your claim without being able to substantiate it with anything. Whereas I'm drawing on themes and ideas that Oda has explored throughout the manga and continues to do so. There's literally 0 evidence in manga of brainwashing of CDs regarding their supremacist beliefs whereas there's tons of prove its a cultural artifact of their society.
0
u/sami_newgate Sep 09 '24
Sorry. Anyone who think that doffy is born a psycho needs to work on their reading comprehension. Doffy is a normal human. He more human than any other character in the series, that’s literally the point of his story. If you reduced it to “born psycho” then it is your problem.
As I said to you, fiction can be multifaceted. Oda already showed the aristocrats in goa kingdom. But with the celestial dragons, he went deeper into psychology and philosophy.
I don’t know man. There is clearly a problem with your understanding of OP. If the WG was really supremacist, then why did they declare friendship with the fishman island? Why did they gave them a seat in the democratic council?
Your problem is that everything is simple black and white for you, you ignore nuance.
There is difference in nature in cora and doffy indeed. The difference is present in the mental capacity department, not evil.
Doffy was smarter, he wanted to understand everything and he questions everything. While cora was a simple reliant kid who doesn’t even talk much.
You are missing a thing, mjosgard was just like charlos, but he changed. This is probably the same case with homing, at some point, he was just like other CDs.
I mean it is easy to be confident in shallow takes. Since you don’t put much effort into them.
Think my friend, use your brain, the world government as a whole are friends with fishmen, but the CDs aren’t allowed to be friends with fishmen. If this was really a cultural code, then why didn’t they banish mjosgard? Why did they go as far as killing him? What is the meaning of lucci line “Gods aren’t bound by logic”
Even from a stylistic POV, why is garling and the gorousei are drawn as raw handsome old men instead of ugly bastards ? Why are they capable of thinking differently from normal CDs? Because CDs are just puppets in their hands, they are brainwashed to be gods.
You just need to think
→ More replies (0)2
u/LeGama Sep 08 '24
I'm very curious to learn more about the CDs, I mean they've always been shown to be incompetent rich children, but I always assumed they had such a level of political power and money that the government protected them. But with all the recent developments I'm just thinking like why does IMU care? Just keep around the competent ones like Garling and kill the rest.
My working theory is that within each family there's core head members that are haki gods and could wipe out the Gorosai, and those people are the ones who don't let others touch their families. I mean 20 kingdoms, if there's just 2-3 per family that's a 40-60 army of people who would fight 5 Gorosai. Also because of genes and what not, maybe even the lazy CDs have prodigy children that can develop conquers haki.
1
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
The reason was shown to us. I will mention you in the comment that I just wrote
50
31
u/Icarus_Sky1 Sep 08 '24
Saturn is easily one of the most interesting main antagonists for an arc in a long time, if not of all time. Everything you said, his arrogance hiding insecurity, his hypocrisy, and narrow mindedness despite claiming to be part of a bigger picture. Add in he couldn't just be punched down so everyone just had to run from him and the other Elders made for some really interesting combat scenarios. Plus! All the little ways he's affected the story through Kuma, Bonney and Vegapunk.
He may not have had the gravitas of Doflamingo or sheer might of Kaidou, but he is definitely a fantastic antagonist.
10
u/Tasty_Tones Sep 08 '24
Dude hasn’t seen any action in 200 years and on his first shift, shit hit the fan real bad and fast.
Instantly forced to retire. 10/10 intro
27
18
6
u/Heydude1001 Sep 08 '24
That what i think some Gorosei might have their own agenda. They all secretly want to be or in the same osition as Imu. For me Garling seem to be a secret bose he might betray Imu.
4
u/Darth_Malik008 Mugiwara no Luffy Sep 08 '24
All the celestial dragons from Imu down are hypocrites and frauds. It's why Imu nearly wet himself when he felt Joyboys haki
2
u/slipperysnail Sep 08 '24
Bro looked pretty human in his last moments
Or at least what remained of him did
2
1
1
1
u/Akasha1885 The Revolutionary Army Sep 08 '24
Well, he is the youngest of the Gorosei, so probably also the most naive and human still.
-12
u/Open_Inspector_7863 Sep 07 '24
The most one dimensional villain in 15 years doesnt suddenly become a well written character just because his constant and everlasting failures open up a brief parallel between his longing of self realization and the fact that he is regularly putting everyone down for the same behaviour. We know nothing about him. Him barely being a human and therefore becoming ridiculously uninteresting is the result of the route oda wanted to go with him. I can just hope this wont be the main theme for the rest of the final antagonists.
5
u/baroqueworks Sep 07 '24
Saturn will more than likely get Vergoed and see flashbacks of him at some point in time when the true timeline is revealed.
1
u/sami_newgate Sep 07 '24
Definitely, His relationship with the others will be developed more. But he is an s-tier antagonist either way
-5
u/Open_Inspector_7863 Sep 07 '24
Man i hope not too much. We have an insane amount of sidecast to be shown in the true timeline, i dont think he is gonna offer a lot without taking away from more interesting characters.
11
u/Latter-Contact-6814 Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
Its okay to think hes not initeresting but He is absolutely not one dimensional. Like a lot of other parts of odas character work, you get out what you put in. There's been a lot of depth to read into with Saturn and his action.
3
u/Agarotto Sep 08 '24
at least I hope that he goes that route with the elders and the upper government, since I feel we already have too much redeamble villains (teach, akainu) I need some irredeemable, black and white, fully hateable sons of bitches like the elders
9
u/EZEKIlIEL22607551159 Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 10 '24
Dang, I don't often disagree with takes like this, but I disagree with this one strongly. OP in this very post gave you a lot of good reasons why Saturn is a well written character. You haven't exactly countered any of them.
EDIT: just saw you calling people you disagree with highschoolers. Nevermind, now that I see the stock of who we are arguing with, I see that it's a pointless endeavor haha
10
u/sami_newgate Sep 08 '24
It seems that he doesn’t read many stories so he can’t connect with this type of characterization.
7
u/sami_newgate Sep 07 '24
He is definitely a three dimensional antagonist.
The main theme of egghead is human contradiction. Being a god with inferiority complex makes him the perfect antagonist for this arc.
We know almost everything about him. The beauty of his character is that the more he rejects his humanity, the more he proves that he is just a human.
Saying that he is barely a human is just a proof that you didn’t understand his character.
He is a human more than anyone else, just like kuma and bonney. His hypocrisy and need of proving himself is a proof of that.
You need to read more stories if you think that we need flashbacks to understand characters.
-12
u/Open_Inspector_7863 Sep 07 '24
I never said we need flashbacks for understanding characters or for them to be interesting, you are assuming a whole lot here. Me saying he is barely human is intentional because he is. He is not "more human than anyone else". Saturn just has one bad human trait turned up to a thousand and you are spinning all of your enjoyment out of this one aspect, which is fine. It still doesnt make him enjoyable, intruiging or interesting to me. He is playing in the same sandbox as Hody Jones. Thematically relevant but completely dull and uninteresting as a character.
8
u/sami_newgate Sep 07 '24
That’s what your words indicated. It seems that you are not capable of understanding characterization outside of backstories.
His inferiority complex definitely makes him intriguing and thought provoking. It is just that you are not trying to think. So you can’t comprehend why it is so deep.
Hody is amazing. But saturn is way better. Saturn is a fully fleshed-out human being while what’s interesting about hody is the way he came to existence.
Saturn is definitely more human than anyone else. In an arc about human contradiction. Him, Vp and kizaru are the perfect side characters to explore this theme.
He is interesting for anyone who is looking for deep writing. If a self-proclaimed god with inferiority complex doesn’t interest you then I don’t know what does lmao.
He is an s-tier antagonist but it is not like he is top 10 antagonists in OP or anything.
-12
u/Open_Inspector_7863 Sep 07 '24
There was no indication you cognitively superior highschooler. But yeah, enjoy.
5
321
u/KlingoftheCastle Pirate Sep 07 '24
Immortality and no consequences for centuries will certainly do that to someone