Forming a Anti-Zionist Denomination of Judaism

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Seeing the stickied post regarding people seeking out progressive (particularly anti-Zionist) Jewish services, I wanted to talk about the formation of a progressive anti-Zionist Jewish denomination.

While there are progressive denominations of Judaism (e.g. Humanistic), these denominations don’t explicitly render themselves as anti-Zionist in the fact that they don’t declare “that there should not be a Jewish state”.

A new denomination such as this would need to remove practices phrases, statements and literature making overtures to the Holy Land and focus on community and belief in God. I see this as parallel to how some branches of Humanistic Judaism avoid using theonyms (names associated with God e.g. Joshua).

Thoughts?

[u/ContentChecker]

Intellectual discussions about religion and sincere questions are perfectly fine, but self-awareness is also important when one is engaging with any group of adherents.

That does not seem to be the case here currently, so we're opting to lock the post. That way people can still read the explanations given by community members.

[u/BrianMagnumFilms]

the problem is not the raw material of these “objectionable phrases” encoded into jewish history and theology, ones that deal with a form of jewish statehood and ethos of divine right in eretz yisrael. the problem is the way they have been employed to catalyze support for a modern jewish ethnostate which has been built on a prevailing vision of supremacy over the non-jewish inhabitants of the land under this state’s control. there is a post-zionist judaism, we are all working hard to envisage and build that, but the only way out is through. a desire to comb back through our history and our texts and pick out phrases that have uncomfortable recurrences vis a vis israel, imho, speaks to a failure of will to reckon with them.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/BrianMagnumFilms]

I don't see how identifying an issue is a "failure to reckon with them".

If anything I see it as the opposite, as I have identified the issue and and trying to address it.

I don't think not including the teachings of the various Mashiach claimants throughout history into the Talmud is a failure to address their claims to being the Mashiach.

[u/BrianMagnumFilms → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

well i don’t think the phrases in question are an “issue” that needs to be “addressed” in the sense in which you seem to mean it, i.e. a straightforwardly bad thing that must be removed from jewish thought in order to create a better judaism. attachment to and celebration the ancient jewish kingdoms, and desire to return to them once the messiah arrives, is kind of the entire underpinning of rabbinic, talmudic judaism. bound up with that is inevitable questions of statehood and agency (not modern national statehood necessarily, but statehood nonetheless). these cannot be mitigated or removed by the artless censorship of language which relates directly to it.

i guess my feeling is the same as it would be for censorship of any uncomfortable historical text; it should be left in and considered and remembered. and a key point here which it is necessary to remember, which i again reiterate, is that these things in their conception and raw material are not “bad.” they become “bad” when used as justification for religious strains of ethnonational supremacy. and for what it’s worth, i don’t even think zionism runs on as much relationship to these religious concepts as your call to strike them from the record posits; it’s a secular national ideology which stripmines any and all sources it can for the same purpose: to assert jewish control and supremacy over the land. these include archaeological findings, claims of geopolitical necessity (ie bulwark against islamic encroachment on the west), economic gain, etc, and on the same plane as these varied fields is theology, which is a complete rorschach test, and from which one can draw, from the countless sources of jewish religious thought over millennia-long history, ideas that in a modern context would be either zionist or antizionist or neither.

we cannot reshape the past. we must take what we are given from the past, the good and the bad, and shape the future with it.

[u/NineMillionBears]

Lo bashamayim hi.

I don't think you get to a progressive anti-Zionist Jewish denomination by simply erasing/censoring elements of the scripture referring to Eretz Yisrael. I think a reinterpretation of those elements is much more aligned with Judaism, and would be far more effective in forming Jewish communities that actively reject Zionism.

Such a denomination might de-emphasize many of those elements (perhaps in favor of doikayt, or "hereness"), but I think it's much more important to critique them with regards to how they fit, it at all, with Judaism's fundamental values.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/NineMillionBears]

I don't think you get to a progressive anti-Zionist Jewish denomination by simply erasing/censoring elements of the scripture referring to Eretz Yisrael. I think a reinterpretation of those elements is much more aligned with Judaism, and would be far more effective in forming Jewish communities that actively reject Zionism.

I would argue that this was already tried with Reform Judaism and failed. Most of them veered into adopting Zionism anyways, especially as an extension of their faith.

Such a denomination might de-emphasize many of those elements (perhaps in favor of doikayt, or "hereness"), but I think it's much more important to critique them with regards to how they fit, it at all, with Judaism's fundamental values.

Those ideas have been critiqued and have been deemed for removal. There are Mitzvahs and Values in Judaism that are more practical and are independent of Canaan. These are the traditions and practices that are practiced by Jews in their everyday lives.

As you've said, the Law is for people to interpret.

[u/NineMillionBears → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

But you seem to be advocating more for revision than reinterpretation, which is what I take issue with. You might have more luck talking to a like-minded rabbi about this.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/NineMillionBears]

Ah I see, thanks for clarifying that.

[u/specialistsets]

The references to Jerusalem, the Temple, Zion, the Holy Land, Land of Israel, etc. isn't Zionist, it's simply traditional Jewish theology and culture.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/specialistsets]

Which is the problem as Zionism built itself upon Jewish Tradition. The sentiment for a return to Eretz Israel and the establishment of a Jewish state is entrenched within the Jewish Zeitgeist.

That being said homophobia was (and is) part of the Jewish tradition, but obviously this is not the case as much anymore.

[u/Responsible-Ad8702 → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I disagree. The desire to return to eretz yisrael doesn't have to be Zionism. Living there may be important, but there's nothing about a jewish state. We see that through Jews who lived before Zionism who moved to Palestine for religious reasons but never attempted to colonize or start a state. And we also see it in today's ultra-orthodox antizionists, who believe in a return to the land during the time of moshiach, but not as something we should initiate ourselves. Remember that Zionism was originally a secular movement, with most religious Jews originally opposed to it.

Personally I feel very strongly about living in Palestine someday because I feel very connected to it through my Judaism, but I obviously can't justify doing that until Israel is dismantled.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Responsible-Ad8702]

Zionism is literally about establishing a Jewish state, which is a core belief in traditional Judaism.

If people want to live in the Canaan that is fine but, it should not emphasized as a Mitzvah over living in any other place.

People should not feel the desire to be in Canaan to feel more connected with Judaism. HaShem does not care anymore if the Jews were in Canaan, Babylon or Europe is they have not followed and praised him.

[u/specialistsets → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I think you're confusing terminologies. It is indeed a mitzvah to dwell in the Land of Israel, but that isn't Zionism. Which explains why there are hundreds of thousands of non-Zionist Haredi Jews who live in Israel and the West Bank.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/specialistsets]

I understand, but by declaring it a Mitzvah is is preferring it over other land which is in part the problem. It lends itself to Zionism, as Zionism is built off of Jewish Tradition.

Praise to Hashem should not be anymore meritorious if it is in China or Israel.

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism is not built of Jewish tradition. It emerged much more recently as a reaction to European imperialism/nationalism and antisemitism.

I think you need to read a bit more to understand the difference between the two and the history of Zionism.

I suggest you look at some of the lectures by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro on the subject. I've got his book on the way. He speaks very well on the subject and should clear your mind up on the differences and history

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/awolf_alone]

Zionism is not built of Jewish tradition. It emerged much more recently as a reaction to European imperialism/nationalism and antisemitism

European Colonialism, Nationalism and Fascism all played a part in influencing Zionism. This grew out of Judaism, if it had not then much of the verbiage and symbolism in Zionism would not have connections with aspects of Judaism.

I suggest you look at some of the lectures by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro on the subject. I've got his book on the way. He speaks very well on the subject and should clear your mind up on the differences and history

I am familiar with Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, and listen to him quite a bit. If given the opportunity I would like to have a series of discussions with them.

If you have any resources I would very much be interested in things you can recommend.

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

If you've listened to Shapiro, then I'm a bit surprised by your view:

if it had not then much of the verbiage and symbolism in Zionism would not have connections with aspects of Judaism.

Sure, Zionism appropriates various aspects of Judaism - the stories from the Bible and the historical record of the Israelites - but Zionism as has been the force behind Israel as it stands, has been thoroughly atheist and not Jewish in nature.

Hertzel and Jabotinsky in particular were secular and hated all Ashkenazi culture, and drew upon Germanic ideas with reference to their own supposed 'racial' grouping.

Just because Israel slaps a star of david on the flag and says it is the state of the Jews, does not make it in anyway Jewish or related to Judaism in its foundational or practiced ideology.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/awolf_alone]

What I think Rabbi Shapiro fails to address is twofold.

1. Judaism opposes Zionism only because the Mashiach has not appeared to gather Jews out of exile into Israel. Not because it is inherently wrong to establish a Jewish state.

2. Because of this, there are Jews who have incorporated this into their religion; and because of age-old traditions, people see validity in this.

This is an adaption in faith just as there have been other adoptions in faith (paternal vs maternal lineage, mount gerizim vs mount moriah, interfaith vs non-interfaith marriages etc.).

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Book recommendation: Zionism During the Holocaust: The weaponisation of memory in the service of state and nation by Tony Greenstein

[u/Greatsayain → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

You're missing the point. It can be good for jews to live there and good for jews to talk about the land and reference it in our scripture and prayers without being in control of the land. To live there we don't have to form the government. We don't have to make the rules. It doesn't need to be an ethnostate. It can be a pluralistic society like most western countries are now.

Abraham didn't control the state when he moved there, nor would we. Now if the the modern state of Israel were to collapse I wouldn't blame the next government if they didn't want jews living there based on how Israel has acted. However before 1948 there could have been a way for jews to live there without taking over.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Greatsayain]

You're missing the point. It can be good for jews to live there and good for jews to talk about the land and reference it in our scripture and prayers without being in control of the land. To live there we don't have to form the government. We don't have to make the rules. It doesn't need to be an ethnostate. It can be a pluralistic society like most western countries are now.

I agree with all of this, but the problem that arises is that people will naturally become more entitled to the land. The way Israel behaves is literally a testament to this.

As such I think it is better to just have a clean break from all of it, especially as worshipping HaShem is not contingent on being in Eretz Israel.

Abraham didn't control the state when he moved there, nor would we. Now if the the modern state of Israel were to collapse I wouldn't blame the next government if they didn't want jews living there based on how Israel has acted. However before 1948 there could have been a way for jews to live there without taking over.

Yes, but Joshua did conquer it

[u/zuzuzan]

Eretz Yisrael is still central to the faith, and that has nothing to do with modern Zionism at its core. The fact that Zionism uses it to justify itself doesn't negate the fact that it's in the Torah.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/zuzuzan]

I acknowledge that it is in Tanakh.

That is the problem. If there weren't any references, there would be no connection to the land.

In exile in Babylon, it wasn't though possible to praise HaShem unless in the land.

Now, it is common.

Currently, there are references to Eretz Israel.

Who is to say in the future there won't need to be?

[u/allneonunlike]

We don’t need to strip that material from the canon, we just need to make it clear that it’s a spiritual metaphor. Jews spent 2000 years using “next year in Jerusalem” as an allegory rather than a plan to commit genocide and enshrine an evil apartheid state, the problem isn’t in the literature.

[u/specialistsets → u/allneonunlike]

It's not traditionally seen as a metaphor, all Orthodox Jews literally believe that the Temple will one day be physically rebuilt in Jerusalem in a messianic era. "Next year in Jerusalem" is said at Passover and Yom Kippur because those holidays are seen as uniquely incomplete without the associated Temple practices.

[u/malachamavet → u/specialistsets]

Also, even not taken metaphorically, the idea of a state is completely divorced from the idea of physically being somewhere. I can want to move to Paris without wanting to conquer France etc.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/allneonunlike]

The Canon is a reflection of what is valued and what isn't. If the land is not seen as central to one's faith in HaShem, then it shouldn't be needed.

This is aside from the fact that the traditional biblical narrative records the Conquest of Canaan, and particularly the genocide of the Amalekites.

[u/allneonunlike → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I wish I had an answer to the biblical conquest and genocide content, it’s honestly always been too much for me to be able to engage with the religious aspect of our culture, even decades ago. I couldn’t stomach talking about the killing of the firstborn at Passover as a kid, I feel sick thinking about Amalek being part of the canon knowing that it’s the explicit justification for the genocide and ecocide taking place in Gaza. I say with hope that we lived for 2000 years without using Torah as a playbook for mass murder, but I honestly don’t know how the faith can survive this. I’ve never been a particularly observant person, and hope others who are more plugged in to that aspect of Jewishness have answers for you.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/allneonunlike]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I really appreciate it.

Contrary to what people may think in this forum, I'm not some rambling pile of chaos.

I'm just trying to help get to a solution that people can support without suffering existential dread or from dehumanizing others.

[u/BolesCW]

Considering that there is a formative trauma of national destruction and expulsion/exile in Judaism, excising references to a rebuilt Jerusalem, the coming of mashiah, and an end to diaspora would whittle down the siddur quite a lot. Frankly, that reeks of censorship for ideological reasons.

It's far more honest and courageous to grapple with how to heal the trauma of community destruction and expulsion through a rejection of geopolitical and ethnosupremacist sovereignty.

As we move into winter, we have the opportunity to examine the story ahd legacy of the Hasmoneans. Why did the rabbis choose to focus on the miracle of the oil? Because the creation of an institutional religious fundamentalism coupled to the desire of the victorious cohanim to consolidate political power into a hereditary monarchy went against Biblical and rabbinic Judaism. The inherent conflicts of dynastic succession practically mandated one side of the family inviting the hated Roman imperialists into the land. The full history of the Hanukkah story is not the anti-imperialist lesson of kicking out the Seleucids...

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/BolesCW]

The "Maskilim" tried that when they first developed separate communal structures. It was a pathetic, self-effacing attempt to appeal to the gentiles for their rights by putting down traditionalists. Look where that got them

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/BolesCW]

Considering that there is a formative trauma of national destruction and expulsion/exile in Judaism, excising references to a rebuilt Jerusalem, the coming of mashiah, and an end to diaspora would whittle down the siddur quite a lot. Frankly, that reeks of censorship for ideological reasons.

I wouldn't say censorship, I'm not advocating going out to destroy other denominations. I'm only facilitating a discussion for people to talk about wanting to make a space that reflects their values.

It's far more honest and courageous to grapple with how to heal the trauma of community destruction and expulsion through a rejection of geopolitical and ethnosupremacist sovereignty.

I would argue that is what I am doing. By removing overtures to the holy land and ultimately not establishing a sense of entitlement to it, the faith is not able to be tied to geopolitical (and by extension ethnosupremacist) machinations of the world.

As we move into winter, we have the opportunity to examine the story ahd legacy of the Hasmoneans. Why did the rabbis choose to focus on the miracle of the oil? Because the creation of an institutional religious fundamentalism coupled to the desire of the victorious cohanim to consolidate political power into a hereditary monarchy went against Biblical and rabbinic Judaism. The inherent conflicts of dynastic succession practically mandated one side of the family inviting the hated Roman imperialists into the land. The full history of the Hanukkah story is not the anti-imperialist lesson of kicking out the Seleucids...

I agree, and the focus on the idea of a "promised land" goes against progressive values with regards to other who it categorically was not "promised" too.

[u/Benyano]

Check out Rabbis for a Ceasefire, their organizers and those of many grassroots communities are laying the foundation for a kind of post-denominational diasporist/anti-zionist Judaism.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Benyano]

Interesting, thanks a lot!

[u/Benyano → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Not sure they’re making the kind of liturgical changes you recommended, but it’s all in process and I’m sure some communities are doing things that way

[u/loselyconscious]

There was an antizionist denomination of Judaism, it was called Reform Judaism. The first statement of principle of Reform Judaism in the US explicitly rejected Zionism 

[u/Sarah-himmelfarb → u/loselyconscious]

They were originally anti-Zionist but switched in the 20th century and is now quite Zionist. Most if not all middle aged reform Jews I know are Zionist

[u/specialistsets → u/loselyconscious]

The Reform Pittsburgh Platform of 1885 predates Zionism as a term and wasn't referring to Political Zionism, which didn't exist yet. It was a rejection of the traditional Jewish understandings of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel in an effort to de-emphasize Jewish peoplehood: "We consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community"

[u/loselyconscious → u/specialistsets]

That is not quite correct; the Pittsburg Platform predates the forming of the first Zionist institutions by about a decade, but Zionism as a political movement was already in its nascent stage by then. Auto-Emancipation was published in 1882, Hibbat Ha-Zion had also begun to form in the 1880s, multiple new Jewish settlements had been founded in Palestine by the time the Platform was published, and people were very aware of the Montifore's and Rothschilds funding of the first aliyah. More importantly, the platform was the basis of opposition to political Zionism in the Reform movement for the better part of the next 50 years

[u/specialistsets → u/loselyconscious]

What has come to be called "Proto-Zionism" still isn't Political Zionism. Pinsker advocated for increasing Jewish migration to Palestine in response to pogroms, and only had vague allusions to future prospects of Jewish political autonomy. And the various Montefiore and Rothschild endeavors in 19th century Palestine focused mostly on supporting the poor residents of the Old Yishuv and agricultural self-sufficiency. The First Aliyah only came to be associated with Political Zionism retroactively. The text of the Pittsburgh Platform makes no mention of any of this and only refers to theological concepts.

[u/loselyconscious → u/specialistsets]

This is a weird pedantry. Whatever the Pittsburg Platform meant (which clearly is opposition to aliyah) Reform Movement was subsequently opposed to political Zionism.

[u/specialistsets → u/loselyconscious]

I don't believe the Pittsburgh Platform or the Reform movement at large was opposed to Jews living in Palestine, and many Reform leaders supported it prior to the adoption of the Columbus Platform. The text is clearly referring to traditional theological concepts of Eretz Israel and the associated messianic prophecies of a mass return to Jerusalem, rebuilding of the Temple and restoration of Temple service:

"We consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community, and therefore expect neither a return to Palestine, nor a sacrificial worship under the sons of Aaron, nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state."

[u/acacia_tree → u/loselyconscious]

Reform Judaism still exists. I grew up Reform and still practice it. Originally it completely rejected Zionism but the major Reform institutions became Zionist in the middle of the 20th century. The American Council for Judaism is the only anti-Zionist Reform institution that still exists and upholds the Pittsburg definition. They’re currently going under a rebrand and revival.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Can you explain a bit more about this "rebrand"?

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

http://www.acjna.org

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Thanks!

[u/loselyconscious → u/acacia_tree]

Yes of course it still exists, but they are no long anti-zionist.

[u/acacia_tree → u/loselyconscious]

One Reform institution is still anti Zionist and never stopped being anti-Zionist. But the URJ is Zionist

[u/loselyconscious → u/acacia_tree]

I would not really call ACJ a reform institution. I also find the Pittsburg Platform to have about as much prospect for a political revitalized anti-Zionism as Haredi anti-zionism does

[u/acacia_tree]

As others said this kind of censorship would be unnecessary and contrary to the precepts of the faith. Judaism was not Zionist for thousands of years. We can just return to those traditions. The Haredim are anti-Zionist.

I grew up Reform in a liberal Zionist community. Reform Judaism originally was vehemently opposed to Zionism but that changed in the mid 20th century. The American Council for Judaism is the one Reform Jewish institution that is still anti-Zionist. We can just return to the anti-Zionist tradition and have Reform synagogues affiliated with them/their platform instead of the Union of Reform Judaism which is Zionist.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Judaism has always carried Zionist aspects. They just believed that the Mashiach was required for it.

As I said before, it isn't censorship. I'm not calling for these phrases to be banned. Just that it should not be included in a fully anti-Zionist denomination.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism is a 19th century invention and political ideology. Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Judaism has deep spiritual ties to Palestine and Jerusalem but conflating that with Zionism is fallacious and it’s exactly what Zionists want you to do. There are 2500 years of diaspora Judaism and anti-Zionist Judaism has always existed and exists today. The first anti-Zionists were Jews who thought it was ridiculous and that it would result in evil. Reform Judaism was once anti-Zionist and Anti-Zionist denominations still exist.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Zionism was built upon the Jewish Tradition, particularly the desire to return to Eretz Israel.

This sentiment is something that goes back all the way to the Babylonian Exile.

Jews were anti-zionist in practice more than theory. If Mashiach comes they would have no problem with establishing a Jewish state.

Canaan is not required for Judaism, as was shown with the covenant with Noah.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

The yearning for Palestine’s Jewish heritage and desire to “return” should not be conflated with the creation of a colonial ethnostate . Next year in Jerusalem is a metaphor in the Reform tradition. It’s the holy land and we have important sites there that when Palestine is free I hope we have the privilege to enjoy them just like Christians and Muslims can with their sacred sites there.

Zionism is not built on the Jewish tradition. Herzl suggested Uganda and Argentina as places for the Jewish colony. It’s colonialism. The idea that this is about religion is Zionist propaganda to obfuscate that this is a colonial ideology.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Sacred sites should not be required for Judaism.

Mount Gerizim (Sechem) is where traditions were practiced first, but now they are on Mount Moriah (Jerusalem).

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

It seems you have problems with fundamental parts of the religion so maybe Judaism is not for you?

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Many Jews have had problems with fundamental parts of the religion. They in turn adapted their practices.

Why must someone who wants to be distinctly and explicitly anti-zionist, be told to leave?

Have you stoned someone to death for breaking Sabbath? I assume not.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

The religion has been reformed and changed over millennia for religious and spiritual reasons but never whittled away the liturgy, our stories, and the spiritual significance of Eretz Yisrael which is what you want to do for purely political reasons. We had Judaism without Zionism already.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

The religion literally added and redacted the liturgy and stories over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

Zionism grew out of Judaism. Both are irredentist which is the problem.

Judaism can exist without irredentism.

[u/bogby55]

Man I hope this isn't the type of view that's becoming mainstream on this sub. I'm a secular jew and even i think this is ridiculous

[u/acacia_tree → u/bogby55]

based on the vehement opposition in the comments and the downvotes for OP's replies, I don't think this view is mainstream on this sub.

[u/mysecondaccountanon → u/bogby55]

This sub is getting more and more weird (usually American/European) goyim who think they know Judaism and all Jewish people 100%. It’s honestly making me not want to check out this sub more and more. And myself and others have brought it up before, and it always seems like things like this die down, then they just resurface. I like having a Jewish space that isn’t like the main subs in terms of virulent Zionism.

[u/acacia_tree → u/mysecondaccountanon]

I don’t have a problem with non-Jews frequenting the sub, but this is why they need to make flairs mandatory. Some North American or European non-Jew can come on hear and spout some nonsense and people less educated on Judaism will think its a legitimate take. And also I take umbrage with Jews coming on here professing their guilt and hatred of being Jewish and at worst saying Jews deserve antisemitism. That is not for the public to see, get a hold of yourself, and process your shit privately. it’s really damaging to the movement. It’s also so undermining to the Palestinians who have to spend so much time convincing people that anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism for some American Jew to say antisemitism is okay or that our religion is inherently evil or whatever

[u/ContentChecker → u/acacia_tree]

I'm going to bring that up to other mods.

[u/bogby55 → u/mysecondaccountanon]

Haven't been on here that long but I'd have to agree it's disheartening to say the least. I'd agree this sub has been rlly helpful.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/bogby55]

What is ridiculous about what I've posted?

[u/loselyconscious]

It sounds like you wanted the Ethical Culture movement

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/loselyconscious]

No, what I am seeking is a organized progressive expression of the Jewish religion; not another philosophy.

People shouldn't be pushed away when they try and reconcile their beliefs, especially when others have done the same in the past and were not casted out.

[u/loselyconscious → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

It just seems like you are trying to empty Judaism of the core elements of Judaism

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/loselyconscious]

No, it seems that your projecting.

I made a singular claim about Anti-Zionism and taken it to the end degree. I said nothing about anything else, unless in support of reinterpreting Anti-Zionism into Judaism.

[u/loselyconscious → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

You said you want to "remove practices phrases, statements and literature making overtures to the Holy Land"

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/loselyconscious]

Yes, and that is all related to my take on Anti-Zionism.

Why care to make overtures to a land if it doesn't have to be core to the faith?

[u/loselyconscious → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

The land is core to my faith, the state is not. You can't have Judaism with the land. 

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/loselyconscious]

Why does that land have to be core to having faith in Judaism?

In Bablyon, it was thought that you could not praise Hashem if you were not within the land.

Now people do.

Likewise, currently many think we need to include the land in the traditions.

In the future, people may not feel the need to include it.

Edit: typo

[u/loselyconscious → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

It's not the core, but its a core. You would have to throw out almost all of the liturgy

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/loselyconscious]

Possibly, but again, it's not as if the liturgy hasn't been changed before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

[u/malachamavet]

If you were going to have some kind of "break" in Judaism after Zionism it would probably be some kind of post-Rabbinic Judaism (in the same way Rabbinic Judaism is post-second-temple). Instead of a denomination - a schism

But that being the most likely doesn't mean it is likely at all.

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

If you want an anti-zionist denomination of Judaism, go to the Haredim. European ideas like denomination and the separation of religion from nationality got us into mess in the first place

[u/acacia_tree → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

did you grow up Modern Orthodox or Haredi?

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/acacia_tree]

Reform actually

[u/acacia_tree → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

fascinating. the only baal teshuva person I know is zionist and it ended our friendship

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/acacia_tree]

That sucks, but I don't blame you

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

Haredim are not progressives. They are also only anti-Zionist in practice than theory. If the Mashiach had come they would not be against a Jewish state.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/[deleted]]

That Jewish state would be governed in accordance with Orthodox Jewish law which is traditionally not very progressive with regards to: non-jews, non-heterosexuals, physio-diverse, etc.

The Conquest of Canaan was also something that not seen as punishable by Hashem, but allowable.

Edit: Typo "a" instead of "as"