Forming a Anti-Zionist Denomination of Judaism

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Seeing the stickied post regarding people seeking out progressive (particularly anti-Zionist) Jewish services, I wanted to talk about the formation of a progressive anti-Zionist Jewish denomination.

While there are progressive denominations of Judaism (e.g. Humanistic), these denominations don’t explicitly render themselves as anti-Zionist in the fact that they don’t declare “that there should not be a Jewish state”.

A new denomination such as this would need to remove practices phrases, statements and literature making overtures to the Holy Land and focus on community and belief in God. I see this as parallel to how some branches of Humanistic Judaism avoid using theonyms (names associated with God e.g. Joshua).

Thoughts?

[u/specialistsets]

The references to Jerusalem, the Temple, Zion, the Holy Land, Land of Israel, etc. isn't Zionist, it's simply traditional Jewish theology and culture.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/specialistsets]

Which is the problem as Zionism built itself upon Jewish Tradition. The sentiment for a return to Eretz Israel and the establishment of a Jewish state is entrenched within the Jewish Zeitgeist.

That being said homophobia was (and is) part of the Jewish tradition, but obviously this is not the case as much anymore.

[u/Responsible-Ad8702 → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I disagree. The desire to return to eretz yisrael doesn't have to be Zionism. Living there may be important, but there's nothing about a jewish state. We see that through Jews who lived before Zionism who moved to Palestine for religious reasons but never attempted to colonize or start a state. And we also see it in today's ultra-orthodox antizionists, who believe in a return to the land during the time of moshiach, but not as something we should initiate ourselves. Remember that Zionism was originally a secular movement, with most religious Jews originally opposed to it.

Personally I feel very strongly about living in Palestine someday because I feel very connected to it through my Judaism, but I obviously can't justify doing that until Israel is dismantled.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Responsible-Ad8702]

Zionism is literally about establishing a Jewish state, which is a core belief in traditional Judaism.

If people want to live in the Canaan that is fine but, it should not emphasized as a Mitzvah over living in any other place.

People should not feel the desire to be in Canaan to feel more connected with Judaism. HaShem does not care anymore if the Jews were in Canaan, Babylon or Europe is they have not followed and praised him.

[u/specialistsets → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I think you're confusing terminologies. It is indeed a mitzvah to dwell in the Land of Israel, but that isn't Zionism. Which explains why there are hundreds of thousands of non-Zionist Haredi Jews who live in Israel and the West Bank.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/specialistsets]

I understand, but by declaring it a Mitzvah is is preferring it over other land which is in part the problem. It lends itself to Zionism, as Zionism is built off of Jewish Tradition.

Praise to Hashem should not be anymore meritorious if it is in China or Israel.

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism is not built of Jewish tradition. It emerged much more recently as a reaction to European imperialism/nationalism and antisemitism.

I think you need to read a bit more to understand the difference between the two and the history of Zionism.

I suggest you look at some of the lectures by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro on the subject. I've got his book on the way. He speaks very well on the subject and should clear your mind up on the differences and history

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/awolf_alone]

Zionism is not built of Jewish tradition. It emerged much more recently as a reaction to European imperialism/nationalism and antisemitism

European Colonialism, Nationalism and Fascism all played a part in influencing Zionism. This grew out of Judaism, if it had not then much of the verbiage and symbolism in Zionism would not have connections with aspects of Judaism.

I suggest you look at some of the lectures by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro on the subject. I've got his book on the way. He speaks very well on the subject and should clear your mind up on the differences and history

I am familiar with Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, and listen to him quite a bit. If given the opportunity I would like to have a series of discussions with them.

If you have any resources I would very much be interested in things you can recommend.

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

If you've listened to Shapiro, then I'm a bit surprised by your view:

if it had not then much of the verbiage and symbolism in Zionism would not have connections with aspects of Judaism.

Sure, Zionism appropriates various aspects of Judaism - the stories from the Bible and the historical record of the Israelites - but Zionism as has been the force behind Israel as it stands, has been thoroughly atheist and not Jewish in nature.

Hertzel and Jabotinsky in particular were secular and hated all Ashkenazi culture, and drew upon Germanic ideas with reference to their own supposed 'racial' grouping.

Just because Israel slaps a star of david on the flag and says it is the state of the Jews, does not make it in anyway Jewish or related to Judaism in its foundational or practiced ideology.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/awolf_alone]

What I think Rabbi Shapiro fails to address is twofold.

1. Judaism opposes Zionism only because the Mashiach has not appeared to gather Jews out of exile into Israel. Not because it is inherently wrong to establish a Jewish state.

2. Because of this, there are Jews who have incorporated this into their religion; and because of age-old traditions, people see validity in this.

This is an adaption in faith just as there have been other adoptions in faith (paternal vs maternal lineage, mount gerizim vs mount moriah, interfaith vs non-interfaith marriages etc.).

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

I'll be honest and say I've only watched one lecture and an extended interview with him. The first point of yours was never brought up, and to be honest, I'm not sure I understand you.

If you are talking about revisionism of Judaism and its central tenants and so forth, then you can probably find a Rabbi or group who might take such views. I don't know if that is really what is needed in the current situation of reconciling Zionism as it is and the state of Israel as it is.

Shaprio is clear about the distinction of people and state. When he references Eretz Israel, yeah it is about the biblical narrative, but no one is actively talking about forming a nation state in the modern context - such never existed when it was talked about to begin with.

You're mixing up ideas which are describing historic and biblical themes with modern usage and material reality. If you are purely talking theologically, you probably can find purchase in talking with people on it - but I don't see it as the synthesis to now. That is a tangential issue to the problems of Israel/Zionism vs Palestine

Edit: also, it seems like you're kinda of against many of the Jewish traditions and views on the story. I don't see why you cannot be orthodox and not follow Zionism. Just because Judaism is all about the homeland, people, history and such - I think most Jews understand that to be not literal in talking about the State of Israel as per Zionist foundations etc.

The few who are most vocal conflating these two are those who are atheist and are doing so in bad faith for other agendas. Creating another faction within Judaism as it is, which seeks to rewrite references to its central literature seems naff and unproductive

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/awolf_alone]

You're mixing up ideas which are describing historic and biblical themes with modern usage and material reality. If you are purely talking theologically, you probably can find purchase in talking with people on it - but I don't see it as the synthesis to now. That is a tangential issue to the problems of Israel/Zionism vs Palestine

These all bleed into one another because Judaism records both theology and the history of a people. This is because Jewish theology ties itself into both a genetic lineage (if your mom is a jew your a jew) and a memetic lineage (if you convert your a jew).

With regards to Rabbi Shapiro's take "Judaism is just a religion"; this becomes undermined by the fact that he accepts genetic lineage (via all Jewish souls of people to be born being present at Mount Sinai).

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Yes, it is a history of 'a people' but be aware of straying into ethnicity definitions. This was the trap for the Ashkenazi Zionists and why you get a lot of internal racism in Israel. It also leads into the right of return and definitions of who is a Jew which until the early 20th century wasn't as complex a question as it is now.

It was, as you say a matrilineal tradition and that's about it. Now, it is used to say anyone all over the globe, regardless of history and tradition has a right to become a citizen of a modern State that defines itself as the nation of a religion rather than defining its own nationality. Modern Israeli laws and Zionism actively recruit people etc - this isn't what religious Jews would generally think is relevant to their practice.

Nation as used historically, does not refer to a defined country with laws and national borders etc - all the modern requirements for a nation. That is a very modern concept. Previous it was a broader referencing and so any thought that Judaism is talking about THAT because of Zionism is a misreading of the language and history.

The Jews are very patient, none of them are looking to hasten the end times like evangelical christians - Christian Zionists are the real issue with regard to Israel anyhow more than Jewish support. It's where this madness started and its what elevated it to reality and continues to fund it.

I'd be genuinely interested in a proper survey of all world wide Jewry of their honest understanding and views of Judasim and Zionsim. I'm sure you would see a big disparity and this would reveal most Zionists aren't really religious. It is used as a pretext. Jews have been practicing their religion, regardless of time and place. It has adapted and such, but I don't think what we are seeing now is a new strain of Zionist Judaism.

Judaism existed before Zionism and hopefully will after. I think in centuries forth, this period may be looked at like another phase of the Christian Crusades to the Holy Land with the way Israel has been formed and supported by the outside. It isn't a Jewish movement

[u/awolf_alone → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Book recommendation: Zionism During the Holocaust: The weaponisation of memory in the service of state and nation by Tony Greenstein

[u/Greatsayain → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

You're missing the point. It can be good for jews to live there and good for jews to talk about the land and reference it in our scripture and prayers without being in control of the land. To live there we don't have to form the government. We don't have to make the rules. It doesn't need to be an ethnostate. It can be a pluralistic society like most western countries are now.

Abraham didn't control the state when he moved there, nor would we. Now if the the modern state of Israel were to collapse I wouldn't blame the next government if they didn't want jews living there based on how Israel has acted. However before 1948 there could have been a way for jews to live there without taking over.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/Greatsayain]

You're missing the point. It can be good for jews to live there and good for jews to talk about the land and reference it in our scripture and prayers without being in control of the land. To live there we don't have to form the government. We don't have to make the rules. It doesn't need to be an ethnostate. It can be a pluralistic society like most western countries are now.

I agree with all of this, but the problem that arises is that people will naturally become more entitled to the land. The way Israel behaves is literally a testament to this.

As such I think it is better to just have a clean break from all of it, especially as worshipping HaShem is not contingent on being in Eretz Israel.

Abraham didn't control the state when he moved there, nor would we. Now if the the modern state of Israel were to collapse I wouldn't blame the next government if they didn't want jews living there based on how Israel has acted. However before 1948 there could have been a way for jews to live there without taking over.

Yes, but Joshua did conquer it