Forming a Anti-Zionist Denomination of Judaism

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Seeing the stickied post regarding people seeking out progressive (particularly anti-Zionist) Jewish services, I wanted to talk about the formation of a progressive anti-Zionist Jewish denomination.

While there are progressive denominations of Judaism (e.g. Humanistic), these denominations don’t explicitly render themselves as anti-Zionist in the fact that they don’t declare “that there should not be a Jewish state”.

A new denomination such as this would need to remove practices phrases, statements and literature making overtures to the Holy Land and focus on community and belief in God. I see this as parallel to how some branches of Humanistic Judaism avoid using theonyms (names associated with God e.g. Joshua).

Thoughts?

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Judaism has always carried Zionist aspects. They just believed that the Mashiach was required for it.

As I said before, it isn't censorship. I'm not calling for these phrases to be banned. Just that it should not be included in a fully anti-Zionist denomination.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism is a 19th century invention and political ideology. Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Judaism has deep spiritual ties to Palestine and Jerusalem but conflating that with Zionism is fallacious and it’s exactly what Zionists want you to do. There are 2500 years of diaspora Judaism and anti-Zionist Judaism has always existed and exists today. The first anti-Zionists were Jews who thought it was ridiculous and that it would result in evil. Reform Judaism was once anti-Zionist and Anti-Zionist denominations still exist.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Zionism was built upon the Jewish Tradition, particularly the desire to return to Eretz Israel.

This sentiment is something that goes back all the way to the Babylonian Exile.

Jews were anti-zionist in practice more than theory. If Mashiach comes they would have no problem with establishing a Jewish state.

Canaan is not required for Judaism, as was shown with the covenant with Noah.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

The yearning for Palestine’s Jewish heritage and desire to “return” should not be conflated with the creation of a colonial ethnostate . Next year in Jerusalem is a metaphor in the Reform tradition. It’s the holy land and we have important sites there that when Palestine is free I hope we have the privilege to enjoy them just like Christians and Muslims can with their sacred sites there.

Zionism is not built on the Jewish tradition. Herzl suggested Uganda and Argentina as places for the Jewish colony. It’s colonialism. The idea that this is about religion is Zionist propaganda to obfuscate that this is a colonial ideology.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Sacred sites should not be required for Judaism.

Mount Gerizim (Sechem) is where traditions were practiced first, but now they are on Mount Moriah (Jerusalem).

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

It seems you have problems with fundamental parts of the religion so maybe Judaism is not for you?

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Many Jews have had problems with fundamental parts of the religion. They in turn adapted their practices.

Why must someone who wants to be distinctly and explicitly anti-zionist, be told to leave?

Have you stoned someone to death for breaking Sabbath? I assume not.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

The religion has been reformed and changed over millennia for religious and spiritual reasons but never whittled away the liturgy, our stories, and the spiritual significance of Eretz Yisrael which is what you want to do for purely political reasons. We had Judaism without Zionism already.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

The religion literally added and redacted the liturgy and stories over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

Zionism grew out of Judaism. Both are irredentist which is the problem.

Judaism can exist without irredentism.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism did not grow out of Judaism. Zionism grew out of colonialism. It’s a settler-colonialist ideology that uses Jews as human shields. Read Herzl’s writings and those of other early Zionists. Herzl was an atheist. There’s a reason why Zionism came from European Jews as opposed to MENA Jews. Christian proto-Zionism was also based on Christian eschatology and not Judaism. You are literally repeating Hasbara.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

Zionism did not grow out of Judaism. Zionism grew out of colonialism. It’s a settler-colonialist ideology that uses Jews as human shields.

Zionism was influenced by both Judaism and Colonialism. Do you think Nathan Birnbaum just magically chose the word "Zionism" out of nowhere? The verbiage has existing connotations to Judaism.

Read Herzl’s writings and those of other early Zionists. Herzl was an atheist.

Jewish-Atheist

There’s a reason why Zionism came from European Jews as opposed to MENA Jews. Christian proto-Zionism was also based on Christian eschatology and not Judaism.

Christianity literally grew out of Judaism. Protestantism payed particular attention to the Tanakh, which is what the Jewish and Christian Bibles share.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

Zionism would not exist without colonialism and the modern idea of nation states. It did not purely spring up from Judaism. Zionism appropriated elements of it for the purposes of colonial exploitation and domination. Again there’s a reason why it came from an atheist from Europe. And you’re promoting supercessionism now in addition to Zionist propaganda? Are you a troll or what?

[u/BolesCW → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

your contentions contain elements of collective guilt, guilt by association, and ahistorical assertions. but your anti-Jewish points are quite rudimentary; perhaps you should read some actual self-hating Jews like Israel Shahak and Gilad Atzmon. you might learn how to refine your despicable ideas.

[u/acacia_tree → u/BolesCW]

Indeed his assertions are based on Hasbara and not history

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/acacia_tree]

I've linked many more historical sources of information than anyone else here.

[u/acacia_tree → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

you've linked wikipedia articles. if you're going to condemn the entire religion to be inherently Zionist based on ahistorical and erroneous assertions and object to the anti-zionist alternatives that already exist--and have always existed--and instead alter the religion to something unrecognizable then perhaps Judaism isn't right for you? or maybe do some real reading on Zionism and unpack this guilt you have?

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/BolesCW]

perhaps should should learn actually address someone's concerns instead of insulting them.

[u/BolesCW → u/NAHTHEHNRFS850]

you have no idea how restrained I'm being in the face of your monumental ignorance.

[u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 → u/BolesCW]

well that seems like a problem with you, not me.

If you have something to say then say it, you're not really helping anyone by posturing your apparent superior knowledge. I posted this to have a discussion not to just pontificate a single viewpoint.

edit: you're