r/JewsOfConscience • u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist • Nov 08 '24
News Maccabi fans, pro-Palestinians clash in Amsterdam
https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/42260727/maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-clash-pro-palestinian-protesters-ajax-europa-league-match165
u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
Just want to point out that this story was all over X first and videos showed the Maccabi fans harassing people, singing genocidal chants, and vandalizing or tearing down Palestinian flags from locals.
An Amsterdam city council member summarizes what actually happened:
The Israeli fans instigated the violence after arriving in the city and attacking Palestinian supporters before the match, an Amsterdam city council member said.
“They began attacking houses of people in Amsterdam with Palestinian flags, so that’s actually where the violence started,” councilman Jazie Veldhuyzen told Al Jazeera on Friday.
“As a reaction, Amsterdammers mobilised themselves and countered the attacks that started on Wednesday by the Maccabi hooligans.”
So there is ZERO doubt about who began this drama.
The corporate media and politicians are framing this as a random, bigoted attack.
More sources:
https://x.com/BenJamalpsc/status/1854907483296354574?t=7f4_tbAjz3TzWliaA57xHA&s=19
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1854839444928422191
https://x.com/GuyShahar93/status/1854583313312186435
https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1854611633118810216
https://x.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1854726431269700016
During the actual match, the Maccabi fans disrupted a moment of silence for the victims of the mass flooding in Spain.
https://x.com/Johnpatrick500/status/1854742600906948665
https://x.com/leylahamed/status/1854651497604129256
https://x.com/leylahamed/status/1854661181333475799
There were clashes that followed - but the press is framing it as a 'pogrom' with no mention of how the Maccabi fans themselves started this drama and engaged in the violence and mayhem.
And of course, on Reddit, that same narrative is being proliferated - mostly by citing right-wing pro-Israel press. But even the American press is pushing that narrative.
In reality, it's football hooliganism and pent-up rage at Israel's genocide - since those Maccabi fans made it political.
There's certainly a lot of hate going around - but the pro-Israel response and framing of this story as a 'pogrom' or that these football fans are innocent bystanders? Absolute nonsense.
Maccabi fans previously, randomly, attacked Palestiniansan Egyptian in Athens, Greece back in March:
https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1765797229267222999
https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1765845804307058769?t=SD91HjqHZYH2ZgdEihut9Q&s=19
Picked up by TRT World:
https://x.com/trtworld/status/1766058782876995789
Longer version which shows the initiation of violence by Maccabi fans:
https://x.com/EretzIsrael/status/1765894972199325970
It's so wildly dishonest how this story is being reported, especially when this club's fanbase has a history of hooliganism.
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u/LittleLionMan82 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
As soon as I saw Bari Weiss tweet about it, I knew I was being misled.
Thanks for clarifying.
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u/LeviOsa_not_LeviOSAR Nov 08 '24
Wow, that BBC article at the bottom was so biased and completely dishonest. Journalistic malpractice.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
The divide on this story is mostly regional. Western press saying it's a pogrom, echoing Israeli officials' statements.
MENA press is critical and attributes blame to the football hooligans - who did instigate all of this.
I don't expect the corporate media to tell the truth.
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u/NYCQuilts Nov 08 '24
If it is true that this is the second time Maccabi fans have instigated violence, Israel should be banned from competition.
Either way the Israeli government gets to promote the idea that the world is a hotbed of violent antisemitism and the government needs fighter jets at the ready to rescue poor beleaguered fans.
Meanwhile Jews and Arabs living in Amsterdam suffer because outsiders instigated violence.
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u/bladiebladiebla Nov 08 '24
Thank you for your work getting this all together. I'm Dutch and reading the news and all the gaslighting made me feel insane. Another sad thing I want to share
Kristallnacht commemoration Amsterdam called off
A commemoration of Kristallnacht that was to take place tomorrow night at the Jewish Resistance Monument in the center of Amsterdam has been called off. The commemoration is organized annually by the Platform Stop Racism & Fascism and the Jewish anti-Zionist action group Erev Rav. The organization cannot guarantee the “minimum safety of the speakers and guests,” due to the “large presence of Zionist Israelis in the city planning to commit acts of violence.”
This is not the national commemoration of Kristallnacht: it was already held Thursday at the Portuguese Synagogue in Amsterdam. Kristallnacht was on Nov. 9, 1938, but Nov. 9 falls on a Saturday this year, the day of rest in the Jewish faith.
According to Erev Rav, supporters of soccer club Maccabi Tel Aviv behaved “provocatively, racist and violently” toward Amsterdam residents last night.
Erev Rav is an action group of Dutch Jews that opposes Zionism, the pursuit of an independent Jewish state in Israel. In the war between Israel and Hamas, the organization sides with the Palestinians.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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u/Existing-Stranger632 Nov 08 '24
I’m losing my mind over the blatant lie that is the spin on this story. It’s so insanely dangerous, because these aren’t even close to pogroms. But this type of stuff just alienates more and more people. It will be cool to be called antisemitic pretty soon now
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Nov 08 '24
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Kristallnacht so, I'm assuming there's a non-zero chance the framing by some Israeli politicians and media is intentional.
The same folks did not like it when the settler terror attack on Huwara was framed as a pogrom - and in that case, it was much more legitimate to call it as such.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 08 '24
I'm assuming there's a non-zero chance the framing by some Israeli politicians and media is intentional.
And surprise surprise, here's a statement from Chuck Schumer...
"This antisemitic attack on Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam is pure evil and the images of the attack are eerily reminiscent of Kristallnacht. The failure to protect the fans must be investigated swiftly and comprehensively."
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
This is just too much bullshit to handle.
None of these cynical politicians and commentators said shit when Huwara was burning.
Some of them even grew angry at the comparison to pogroms. People on Reddit certainly did. Like in Israel_Palestine, where we used to debate others often.
But when football hooligans get into a street fight, it's suddenly 'reminiscent of Kristallnacht'? Shame.
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u/lucash7 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 09 '24
Forgive me if I missed it in your comment, but there are claims of a “Jew hunt” and a telegram message? Think it was the telegraph? It all seemed too good to be true when it came out - rather sensationalist. Any sources on that rumor of “hunts”?
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 09 '24
I haven't seen it myself, but I believe some people made a WhatsApp group and used antisemitic rhetoric - but I don't know about 'hunting'.
I'm sure once people saw the videos of Maccabi assaulting people, singing racist/genocidal chants, praising the genocide in Gaza, et al - they decided to coordinate amongst themselves some kind of retaliation.
So, I won't dispute that - this was hooliganism that started with Maccabi and ended with hooliganism from the locals.
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u/lucash7 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 09 '24
Okay, appreciate the insight. I’ll be honest, the hooliganism theory (for want of better term) makes sense. I mean:
A. It’s soccer and there is still a major problem with it.
B. Maccabi Tel Aviv, along with Beitar Jerusalem, are both known as having fan bases/hooligans who are decidedly inflammatory racist/problematic so it comes at no surprise really either could show up as involved in stuff.
C. Soccer hooligans are not gone and likely won’t ever go away.
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u/mashd_potetoas Nov 08 '24
I have been paying attention to both sides of this and trying to create a timeline in my head.
I have no doubt that tel aviv fans were acting like hooligans, and disturbing the peace and even instigating confrontation, but yet, there are at least 12 hospitalized so far, and all of them are Israeli. Does this still seem equal or warranted to you?
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
Well, you're off to a bad start by assuming I support this violence.
I don't.
I assume that because there's more of the other side than the Maccabi hooligans, they were unable to exact an equitable level of violence.
It was lopsided in favor of Maccabi early on, but clearly once the videos of their behavior circulated, it became a viral event and got out of control.
All this being said, I could not care less. I consider this to be football bullshit that is blown out of proportion because it's Israel involved.
People fight over this stuff all the time and it's never made into a geopolitical incident.
Maccabi fans should not think that screeching genocidal slogans/chants is normalized in Amsterdam. That's the core issue here.
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Nov 08 '24
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
That is bullshit - and it's a fact that this club's fanbase are violent, racist assholes.
And 'premeditated'? This story just broke and you're already making this accusation with zero evidence?
People circulated the videos of Maccabi fans being assholes and big surprise, it wasn't viewed positively.
I'm not obligated to give a shit.
The same fans you're crying about, ganged up on a Palestinian in Greece back in March.
EDIT:
An Amsterdam city council member summarizes what actually happened:
The Israeli fans instigated the violence after arriving in the city and attacking Palestinian supporters before the match, an Amsterdam city council member said.
“They began attacking houses of people in Amsterdam with Palestinian flags, so that’s actually where the violence started,” councilman Jazie Veldhuyzen told Al Jazeera on Friday.
“As a reaction, Amsterdammers mobilised themselves and countered the attacks that started on Wednesday by the Maccabi hooligans.”
Also, some antisemitism monitor on IG posted what they claim to be 'proof' of premeditation (by literally one guy) - except that is nonsense.
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u/mashd_potetoas Nov 08 '24
I really didn't assume that, but your comment right here kinda hints that you think it's warranted:
Maccabi fans should not think that screeching genocidal slogans/chants is normalized in Amsterdam. That's the core issue here.
Feels a little like FAFO; because they were being assholes, they deserve being beaten up by mobs in the street.
But in any case, it isn't football shit blown out of proportion. This isn't a riot that started between ajax fans and maccabi fans, it's a mob who defined themselves as Pro-Palestinians deliberately chasing down people who are Israeli.
I understand opposing the Israeli government and it's decisions, and as I mentioned before, I saw what the maccabi ultras did, and it was disgusting, but honestly it was more in line with what football hooligans (extreme ones) do in these events.
I don't think we should hand wave what is clearly a political attack against these people.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
No, there's a difference between thinking something might have a reaction (i.e., Maccabi attacking taxi drivers, antagonizing locals, and burning Palestinian flags - all of which took place before the reaction) versus explicitly supporting or advocating for that/etc.
In geopolitics, the concept can be taken a step further - and it's called 'blowback'. Just because you attempt to understand why something happens doesn't mean you support the aftermath/reaction/etc.
I totally get that your sympathize with Maccabi and Israel, in general, but there's no need to invent this nonsense to support your argument.
I don't think we should hand wave what is clearly a political attack against these people.
Oh yea, I'm sure this is sincere concern for political attacks.
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u/Hkkw13 Nov 08 '24
Who gives a shit about 12 nazi thugs getting hospitalized when the country they support and fight for has destroyed every hospital in gaza?
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u/Educational_Board888 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
News outlets are making the Israelis out as the victims when they started it
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u/Moostronus Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
I feel like a core part of Western media normalizing Israeli violence is that they get to determine when incidents or conflicts or whatnot started, as that determines whether an act was out of nowhere or not. I mean, just think about how folks have tried to minimise the 1619 Project with ideas like the 1776 project or 1492 or what have you.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
I wanted to make one more point.
Just looking at the mainstream communal spaces on Reddit, the pro-Israel camp are saying things like 'this is why we need Israel / the IDF'.
And I thought, ok - but this does happen in Israel. Only, the racist hooligans get to abuse Palestinians verbally and physically, and the police and army do nothing about it.
So what the pro-Israel camp is truly upset about here is that Maccabi hooliganism wasn't one-sidedly against the locals. They want that violence to be protected.
There are also a video of someone asking a bystander whether they're Jewish or not. That is obviously terrifying and ghoulish behavior.
But again, Maccabi fans were chanting/singing 'D---- -- A---s!' and praising the ongoing genocide in Gaza - among other things.
Palestinians are regularly dehumanized in Israel by the simple act of referring to them as Arabs rather than as Palestinians - since it strips them of their national identity and conflates them with everyone else in the region.
So who started that reductive language in this case? Maccabi football hooligans.
There's so much wrong in this one story. The amount of bullshit and the double-standard of being outraged by some videos and not others.
Or projecting classic, European antisemitism onto this incident - when it's clearly tit-for-tat reductiveness and pettiness and frustration of seeing a live-streamed genocide and Israeli politicians, soldiers, settlers, civilians, etc. all bragging about it.
When that behavior is then exported into the outside world - where people are presumably not treated as second-class citizens, then obviously there's going to be a negative reaction.
That is what happened here. It's not remotely a 'pogrom' or a cartoonish case of antisemitic violence.
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u/AggravatingMark1367 Nov 12 '24
Pogroms are committed against Palestinians in the West Bank by illegal Israeli settlers all the time but everyone crying about the attack on Maccabi hooligans are fine with that
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u/Soggy-Life-9969 Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
They really thought they could parade around a foreign country chanting genocidal chants, attacking people and property and they would just be allowed to? Fuck them. Many of these assholes are fucking soldiers. Some probably who have just returned from Gaza. Rapists, murderers, torturers. Fuck them, this is just a fraction of what these assholes deserve.
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u/Useful-World1781 Nov 08 '24
Of course they did. They live in a bubble where they are told that they can do whatever they want. They can torture and kill civilians with impunity because they are better than “human animals”.
So when they go abroad they can’t fathom that the world doesn’t agree with them.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 08 '24
Haaretz at least includes info on the boorishness and provocative behavior of the Maccabi fans. But even that is buried in the article.
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Nov 08 '24
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u/Own_Artichoke6337 Nov 09 '24
I'm sorry, but using violence against "chants" is a bit much is it? And how do we know the person being thrown into the river was using those chants or did anything?
This drama just shows that everyone is lost on humanity. Against violence, but not really? Not one is being consistent in their beliefs. its despicable.
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u/Bonjourap Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 10 '24
If somebody physically harassed and attacked people of my community, for no reason other than their ethnicity or political beliefs, chanted threats of future violence and gloated about the death of children, AND the police had the whole day to stop them but yet didn't, then I would 100% go protect my community and beat up the f*cking assholes to teach them a lesson.
That's not fair you say? Well, if the police did it's job we wouldn't be there.
Muslims and Arabs are third-rate citizens in the West, the courts and media are actively against us, and the police doesn't defend us, on the contrary they'll defend our attackers. In that case, who can defend our communities if not ourselves?
Think about that for a bit, maybe you'll notice similar oppressions against other minorities in the West, like the hundreds of pogroms against Jews that bigoted Westerners exacted, and that their societies didn't prevent. Who defended Jews against pogroms in Poland and Germany? Mainly fellow Jews. Did it require violence to fight off violence? Yes, there are no other ways as far as I can tell.
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u/salkhan Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
The irony being that Ajax is actually known for it's Jewish heritage (like Spurs in London). I assume it wasn't Ajax Vs Maccabi Haifa fans. How can Israel be allowed to play UEFA Cup football?
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Nov 08 '24
They used to be in the Asian league, but all the Muslim-majority nations refused to play them. To get around that, they were moved to UEFA in the 1970s.
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u/Existing-Stranger632 Nov 08 '24
The spin on this is insane. As in it’s just been flat out lies in reporting. The Maccabi fans were the aggressors. They were destroying property. Intimidating anyone they assumed was pro Palestine. The people fought back rightfully so and justifiably so. And now the media spin is that pogroms against Jews are happening again.
We are in the upside down. This is not how Jews get empathy for their cause by blatantly lying in the media and diminishing our own history by comparing to REAL atrocities committed against Jews
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u/heatherHMP Roma/Jew (Seph/Ash), LGBTQIA+, Neurodivergent Nov 08 '24
I was seeing a lot of people posting about it framing it as a progrom, I was thinking there must be something further going on. There are real attacks against Jewish people and actually instances of antisemitism and violence, to label something like this as a pogrom implying that pro Palestine (which included massive Jewish movements) as something as serious and violent as the progroms is disturbing.
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u/Educational_Board888 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
I want to ask as a non Jewish person, what is pogrom and why are the attacks beings described as one?
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u/BirdieMercedes Nov 08 '24
The pogroms were acts of violence committed against jewish communities as a group by mass of people. Often perpetrated in germany and URSS during first half of XXth century by civilian population that govt officials would oversee.
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u/Existing-Stranger632 Nov 08 '24
Basically something that didn’t happen in Amsterdam. It’s insanity to me. I feel like I’m going crazy with just the outright lies and media spin. This shit makes people not like Jews, when the reporting is just so blatantly dishonest
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u/TendieRetard Non-Jewish Ally Nov 09 '24
A few more OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySHIOYyJ95A <<Maccabi hooligans doing hoolingan shit (turn on cc for subs.)
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Nov 08 '24
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u/AH_Sam Israeli for One State Nov 08 '24
What’s funny about it?
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I'm sure tons of people see it as revenge for videos of Palestinians and allies photographed in front of an Israeli flag by the Israeli police.
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1719681691889926329
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1719688199184797715
Or the videos of Palestinians blindfolded in Gaza, on a bus,
being told to sing praises to Israel. Obviously, forced to do so by IOF.https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1719682805502787700
The Maccabi football hooligans were chanting 'd---- to Ar--s' - so that reductiveness which is common in Israel, where people refer to Palestinians as Arabs and not as Palestinians, happened first.
So people will absolutely revel in these petty fights because there is no comeuppance elsewhere.
In some of the videos, the anger being expressed is so obviously due to the ongoing genocide.
EDIT:
Correction re: the bus video. They were not forced to sing/chant there (or I'm thinking of a different video). But in another instance, men were stripped and forced to sing against Hamas.
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u/Garak_The_Tailor_ Nov 08 '24
Because those assholes showed up, acted like thugs and got what they deserved.
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