r/JewsOfConscience Jul 31 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

30 Upvotes

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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 31 '24

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u/Slow-Dragonfruit-932 Non-denominational Jul 31 '24

I take a daily glucosamine, its made from shell fish but very transformed. Would someone who keeps kosher be unable to eat this?

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 31 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

Interesting question, lots of potential discussion. There are definitely relevant debates in the talmud to this sort of question, probably a lot to consider here. Not familiar with glucosamine, at a cursory look it seems to be a supplement for joint pain. Can't speak to the transformed element of it, i don't think that would make it kosher, but there may be some discussion there.

By my eye it wouldn't be kosher, but it bears mentioning that pikuach nefesh could come into play if there's a health/livelihood risk to not taking it. So they would be unable to eat it, unless not eating it could potentially endanger life, in which case they must eat it. Even saying "without glucosamine my joint pain affects my work performance, I could potentially lose my job if I don't take it and i need the money for food/shelter," would be a solid enough argument for "saving a life" under pikuach nefesh. On the other hand, there are many other solutions to joint pain that are kosher, so that argument would only really work in circumstances where other solutions are unavailable or failed, and taking glucosamine is the only possible solution.

All this to say, no, it wouldn't be kosher, but there are potential situations where taking it could be permissable, like if your doctor has told you to and does not recommend alternatives. To illustrate an extreme hypothetical, if someone has a gun to your or somebody else's head and says eat this, your obligation to preserve life is above your obligation to uphold kosher law, so you must eat it.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 31 '24

It has health benefits, it's not a derivation of basar b'chalav from which it is forbidden to derive any benefit, and it's not food.

Would you ever add a handful of dietary supplements to a pot of stew? The idea is laughable because dietary supplements and vitamins don't belong to the class of things we call food.

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 31 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

Good points. Does it matter whether or not it's classified as food? We are forbidden to eat of certain animals. One can eat a non-food item, no? Eating is the act of ingestion. How do you define "food" and "eating?" If you know any sources where these definitions of food and eating appear, I'd be very interested in reading about this, this is a new argument to me.

Edit: In your other comment, about wrapping it in tissue paper, i see your point. There's probably a better way to do it than swallowing tissue paper, but I think the idea of taking an action to make it distinct from eating may have merit. Though I'd also say pills are definitely edible and are made to be so, and that swallowing something on purpose is eating. Is there precedent for this line of thought? That a case of medical ingestion of a treyf product for a non life-threatening purpose (ie your doctor has not instructed you to do this) does not violate kashrut because it is not eating?

Further question, is it kosher to eat an old-timey american football? Edible treyf food product (pigskin) modified to be an inedible object (football). Is it now kosher to eat because it isn't eating if it's inedible?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 31 '24

I'm not in the habit of eating my dietary supplements and vitamins, I take them instead. The pills are inedible and clearly not food, and even if you want to argue that they're edible, then if one swallows them whole that is a means of ingestion that is unlike eating -- I can't call to mind a kosher solid food that is swallowed whole and without chewing.

If one is really concerned, one can make it clear that the taking of the pill is not eating by wrapping the pill in tissue paper.

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u/Conscientious_Jew Post-Zionist Jul 31 '24

Not a Rabbi, but my religious parents (orthodox, not Haredim) won't eat it. Pretty sure kosher keeping people won't eat it.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 31 '24

Did you ask them?

I take certain vitamin pills that can't be found except with gelatin as a binder, but I do not eat them. I'm not in the habit of swallowing olives or other small foods whole, so it's kinda difficult to construe what I'm doing as eating.

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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Aug 01 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

It's fine. There are opinions which consider gelatin kosher altogether because it's not anything you'd really eat for the flavor of it (it's neutral tasting, but the smell is nasty as fuck).

Here's an example (and for some reason they're strict on that whole insect in vegetables lunacy)

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 31 '24

Interesting thought. Surely if the pills can only be obtained with gelatin, and are necessary to preserving your health, this is already permissible. But you raise another question, how do we define eating? One does not chew soft foods or liquids, is chewing a definitive element of eating? This interpretation would make all sorts of non-kosher food products permissable by "taking" without eating (swallowing without chewing), like pudding or hard candy with gelatin. But I wonder at how the sages approached this topic, you may be on to something here. Gonna look into it.

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u/Conscientious_Jew Post-Zionist Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24

Yes. If they know that there something unkosher they won't eat it, doesn't matter how remote it is from its original form. They aren't too strict so they might not check in the first place.

I checked online and saw several Rabbis that say it's fine if the person needs it. I can share links if you need them (in Hebrew).

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u/Slow-Dragonfruit-932 Non-denominational Jul 31 '24

How come people who dont use tech on shabbat can still use electronics on timers? It's still technology being turned on and used.

I'm deep in the Google network and have most of my electronics automated, even my ac adjusts when I come home.

I feel like that's me using technology

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Jul 31 '24

Oooh I love this one. You see this subject come up in some of the huge subreddits sometimes and the replies are always filled with casually antisemitic remarks about how Jews are trying to "trick God."

The answer to your question is that there is no rule against using or benefiting from technology on Shabbat. There is a rule against building a fire (because that is work) on Shabbat, and the modern interpretation of this rule is that when you flip a switch to complete an electrical circuit, the spark that is created constitutes building a fire.

So just like you can build a fire before Shabbat and use that fire to keep you warm on Shabbat, you can set a timer on an electrical device before Shabbat and then use that electrical device on Shabbat.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24

When having discussions like these I always avoid the word work because it is a bad translation of the word melacha. I don't even need to tell you what the inevitable sophistical response is to a statement that we don't do X on Shabbat because we don't do work on Shabbat.

It's longer, but prohibited activity gets the meaning across better. Building a fire on Shabbat is a prohibited activity, and things such as turning on a light are similar enough to that prohibited activity that they are prohibited by extension.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Me again! (I'm keen). Two parter today on Judaism, if you please:

1/2: From what I have read and heard, a (religious) Jew is someone who keeps the 613 commandments. (Mizvot?) Is that definition unanimous across different sects & denominations?

2/2: I am not religious but over the years have read a bit of Christian Old Testament & some Quran. From a theological perspective, I personally cannot reconcile Old Testament and Zionism. The current state of Israel & it's rhetoric looks & sounds like apostasy / blasphemy to me. What is your take and are there relevant commandments, beliefs or teachings which you believe are contradictory (or valid) to modern day Zionism in Judaism? EG I have heard of the Three Oaths.

TY 🙏🏻

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 31 '24

2/2: I am not religious but over the years have read a bit of Christian Old Testament & some Quran. From a theological perspective, I personally cannot reconcile Old Testament and Zionism. The current state of Israel & it's rhetoric looks & sounds like apostasy / blasphemy to me. What is your take and are there relevant commandments, beliefs or teachings which you believe are contradictory (or valid) to modern day Zionism in Judaism? EG I have heard of the Three Oaths.

Have you heard the old saying "2 Jews, 3 opinions"? Well, it is certainly true for religious Jewish views on Zionism. Traditional Judaism believes it is a great mitzvah to live in the Land of Israel, the theological debate is whether there can or should be Jewish rule in the Land of Israel before the Messianic age. First, it is crucial to understand that Jews don't view the Torah/Tanakh/Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament" is an exclusively Christian term, by the way) as literal, it is viewed through the interpretive texts of Rabbinic literature known as the "Oral Torah", most notable being the Mishnah and Talmud. But these interpretive texts are themselves open to interpretation and have their own commentaries and sub-interpretations, which is why you see many different types of religious Jews practicing Judaism in different ways.

In short, there are Jews who believe Zionism is incompatible with Judaism (such as the Satmar Hasidim), and there are Jews who view Zionism as a divinely-inspired precursor to a prophesied Messianic age (an ideology known as Religious Zionism). But there are also religious Jews at various places between these two extremes, such as Zionists who are religious but don't support the theological ideologies of Religious Zionism (as varied as Conservative Judaism, some "Yeshivish" Orthodox communities, and even some Haredi communities), and non-Zionists who nonetheless actively support the State of Israel (such as Chabad and many Litvish communities). It is a complicated, varied, multi-faceted web of religious and political beliefs.

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Jul 31 '24

As a funny addendum to the "2 Jews 3 opinions" thing, the Mishnah and Gemara are quite literally a collection of Rabbis arguing with eachother over even the smallest or most contrived things, mostly to no clear resolution.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

I've heard about such conflicts in Talmud but it was dismissed as antisemitic trope. Will put it on the list of things to research - TY!

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

Thank you. Also some great points for perspective & to further digest.

I have certainly heard the saying, but not experienced it due to my social circles.

I guess this is the same paradox found in any human extrapolation & interpretation of instructions.

(I may have some attributions incorrect here, but the point is my logical brain is struggling to rationalise interpretations of faith.)

The part I struggle with is if for example if the 613 are largely based on earlier events in Leviticus / Deuteronomy and Three Oaths are based on later events (EG Kings) doesn't the chronology impact the validity of the previous teaching?

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 01 '24

The part I struggle with is if for example if the 613 are largely based on earlier events in Leviticus / Deuteronomy and Three Oaths are based on later events (EG Kings) doesn't the chronology impact the validity of the previous teaching?

That isn't the Jewish approach. The 613 commandments are derived only from the Torah (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible/Tanakh). The other sections of the Hebrew Bible, Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (Ketuvim), do not have the same stature as the Torah. They are seen as holy scripture and are the source of fundamental Jewish lore and liturgy, but they are not the source of commandments and never supersede the Torah.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, Jewish law and teachings come from the Rabbinic interpretations of the Hebrew Bible known as the Oral Torah. The concept of the 613 commandments comes from the Talmud, as does the concept of the Three Oaths. However, the Three Oaths are not commandments from the Torah but are presented as an interpretation (known as exegisis/midrash) of verses from the "Song of Songs" in the Writings/Ketuvim. As such, they are interpreted and understood in different ways both in the Talmud itself and by the post-Talmudic Rabbinic commentaries and authorities.

The Talmud was written at least 1,500 years ago as a compilation of debates and discussions between prominent Rabbis, so even within the Talmud there are differing views and opinions that are often not concluded or settled. Because of this, Jews have traditionally based their theological beliefs on the many additional post-Talmudic Rabbinic interpretations that aim to further explain and codify the Talmud.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

Thank you for the insights. Lots to digest & research here.

How are conflicts within the 613 reconciled? EG: 33 (do not murder), 35 (do not kidnap), 37 (do not covet / scheme to acquire), 64 (do not oppress), 91 (do not let Canaanites dwell), 525 (kill everyone?), 612 (exterminate Canaanites?).

Do you think this why we see some Zionist rhetoric that labels children as combatants or denying Palestinians' existence - to make current events theologically palatable or is that irrelevant from the theological perspective?

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Aug 01 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

Positive commandments cannot override negative commandments, with the sole exception of saving a life. What list of mitzvot are you referring to? Also none of these actually conflict with each other. And "Kill everyone" is for sure not a commandment. Where are you reading this?

No, this is irrelevant from a theological perspective, neither of those are theological opinions.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 01 '24

Everything is discussed and debated in detail in the Talmud and the further Rabbinic commentaries. Jewish law (Halacha) is a legal system with precedents, exceptions, rulings, and nuance.

... to make current events theologically palatable or is that irrelevant from the theological perspective?

Halacha has never been invoked by the State of Israel to justify their actions. Otherwise, this is a very loaded question that is impossible to answer given the nature of how Jewish law works.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

I think I am starting to understand. Thank you for entertaining my clumsily worded questions.

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Jul 31 '24

1/2: From what I have read and heard, a (religious) Jew is someone who keeps the 613 commandments. (Mizvot?) Is that definition unanimous across different sects & denominations?

Definitely not! All sects would agree that a person doesn't need to keep all the Mitzvot to be a Jew. Different sects have different ideas on what makes a "good Jew", with the orthodox being of the opinion that you need to keep as many of the 613 humanly possible without a temple and other sects going less strict from there. All would agree, though, that once a Jew always a Jew (except for some specific cases regarding conversion, where some (most?) orthodox sects claiming that a conversion is "retroactively invalid" if they don't continuously keep the orthodox level of religious observance). Judaism as a religion attempts to construct and enforce a tribal identity, since back when & where it was created 4000 years ago or so the prevailing identity was "the tribe".

2/2: I am not religious but over the years have read a bit of Christian Old Testament & some Quran. From a theological perspective, I personally cannot reconcile Old Testament and Zionism. The current state of Israel & it's rhetoric looks & sounds like apostasy / blasphemy to me. What is your take and are there relevant commandments, beliefs or teachings which you believe are contradictory (or valid) to modern day Zionism in Judaism? EG I have heard of the Three Oaths.

Historically it looked like blasphemy to a lot of Orthodox sects too. In general there is a Jewish Mitzvah to visit and settle in the historic Land of Israel and especially Jerusalem, but at best most of the more religious Jews would think of the existence of the State of Israel as a minor transgression (and plenty more would go a lot farther -- the Satmar subsects are famously anti-Zionist). Of course that's not all religious sects, with Kahanists (including the infamous Hilltop Youth) being a major force in Israel promoting a fascist theocracy via ethnically cleansing the Palestinians left in Palestine.

Zionism was specifically founded to create a nation out of the Jewish ethnicity, with the religion being more of a tool to help solidify that national identity instead of a means in and of itself. You generally won't find too much pro a Jewish nation-state in Palestine in the religious literature, but you'll probably find a lot pro a Jewish homeland there which the Zionists will then twist.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Thank you. Lots of points to research & digest here.

Love the username BTW. 🤓

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '24

In regards to question 2, I think it is most accurate to state that Judaism and Torah are neither inherently Zionist or anti-Zionist. Because Zionism is a modern political ideology based on the concept of nation-states that has been around for only ~250 years. Judaism cannot be used as a trump card to entirely end any debate around Zionism. There’s no situation where you can say, “well this verse from this chapter of this book says this, and therefore Zionism is correct/invalidated.” There’s also no Jewish principles of faith that are formally recognized by all Jews, and there exists no centralized Jewish authority. We don’t have the Apostolic Creed or Nicene Creed like there is in Christianity, or Kalimat As-Shahadat in Islam.

However, I am personally unable to reconcile my understanding of Torah with a justification for Zionism.

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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Jul 31 '24
  1. A good chunk of the commandments cannot be performed outside of the Land of Israel, in the traditional Israelite system of governance (I.E with a King, Temple, and Sanhedrin)

  2. Correct. Zionism as a secular movement is incompatible with Judaism for many reasons. The Oaths, not to mention the anti-religious attitudes of the founders.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 31 '24

A good chunk of the commandments cannot be performed outside of the Land of Israel, in the traditional Israelite system of governance (I.E with a King, Temple, and Sanhedrin)

There are still commandments that can be performed in the Land of Israel without a Temple, notably the agricultural laws such as Shmita.

Correct. Zionism as a secular movement is incompatible with Judaism for many reasons. The Oaths, not to mention the anti-religious attitudes of the founders.

In practical terms there are millions of religious Zionists (not exclusively Religious Zionists with a capital R), but these varieties of Zionism have never venerated the secular founders of Political Zionism as secular Zionists have.

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u/Zestyclose-Video7022 Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 01 '24

something else worth noting regarding the 613 mitzvot - there is not definitve designation from the Torah as to what the 613 mitzvot are. The most famous attempt to arrange to teachings of the Torah into 613 mitzvot come from Maimonides - who had a very different understanding of the term Israel and would most likely not apply to the modern day nation state that shares its namesake.

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u/peachplumpear333 Non-Jewish Ally, Anti-Zionist Jul 31 '24

how could i make amends with a zionist (ex)friend who now believes me to be antisemitic for expressing solidarity with palestine?

in october, a very close mentor/friend of mine (he is a zionist and jewish) saw one of my posts on social media expressing solidarity with the palestinian people after the israeli military retaliation that followed oct 7. he and i were very close and had been friends for years. he responded to this post stating he believed he had "failed me as a mentor," and promptly unfriended me, and no longer talks to me at all.

this experience has been horrible: knowing that someone who once cared about me/respected me now hates me and thinks of me as evil. i empathize with those of you who have lost community/family/friends for your beliefs, though i can only relate on a small level. i think about reaching out to him often and trying to explain myself. has it been possible for any of you?

how do you cope, if this is your experience? big hugs if you can relate at all.

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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 01 '24

I think that unless you’re willing to come around to a non-Zionist position, rather than anti-Zionist, I probably wouldn’t reach out. I also don’t know what you posted and whether or not it was antisemitic or not sensitive or simply anti-Zionist.

I think most Jewish Zionists truly believe that anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That the rejection of a Jewish national movement is simply antisemitic.

I doubt that someone who went so far as to block you when they were close to you is going to receptive to being friends with someone who identifies as anti-Zionist. Especially if this was shortly after Oct 7th and he knows people who were affected.

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u/peachplumpear333 Non-Jewish Ally, Anti-Zionist Aug 01 '24

thank you for answering! yes, i think you're probably right. he believes that antizionism is antisemitism, and has said as much many times since oct 7. and this position has not changed as of now.

as for what i posted: i reposted a photo of a man holding a palestinian flag following the initial israeli air raids of gaza/the food and water blockade, about a week after oct 7 (i do think that this could have been seen as insensitive, which i understand and regret in hindsight).

i really appreciate your answer. i think i have been in denial about the reality of losing our friendship, but i think you're right that it's unlikely he'll even be receptive to me.

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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 01 '24

It’s not something that I would have been bothered by, but for him I’m sure it would be the same as you posting in support of an enemy nation directly after they attacked unprovoked or due to antisemitism. Sorry.

I think if you do ever get to the point where you’re not set on the end of the state of Israel as the only solution, then you could reach out, but otherwise, almost certainly not worth it.

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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Jul 31 '24

Sadly idk if this could be "fixed" if he cut you off and you don't have to interact in person. It's really heartbreaking, I'm sorry this happened to you.

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u/peachplumpear333 Non-Jewish Ally, Anti-Zionist Aug 01 '24

thanks for your response, friend. it's very appreciated ❤️‍🩹

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

I would only try to connect in person if you desire to explain your perspective. And even then, you cannot entertain any sort of debate during that conversation. You should just focus on explaining your perspective from the basis of your morals, ethics, and general worldview. Any kind of political related claims must be entirely avoided. And you have to refrain yourself from debating with them when they make statements that are factually incorrect.

I cope by trying to focus my attention on maintaining relationships with the people in my life who are somewhere between anti-Zionist, and liberal Zionists who share the same basic values as I do. Anyone who operates under the logic of, “we must defend Israel whether it’s right or wrong. Because at least an immoral and wrong Israel means the Jewish people are still protected.” Cannot be reasoned with.

Humans will find ways to justify and accept the most horrendous and immoral behavior if they think it will protect themselves and their loved ones. This is why it’s a complete waste of time to debate with a large portion of Zionists. What they believe in ultimately has little to do with facts. It doesn’t matter how many times you “debunk” their Hasbara. They operate off an understanding that they are defending the very survival of the Jewish People. You can’t hold a rational conversation with a human in fight-or-flight mode. You can’t reason someone out of a deeply primal need to survive.

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u/peachplumpear333 Non-Jewish Ally, Anti-Zionist Aug 01 '24

(first: hello, fellow marxist)

yes, that is the only way i've thought about approaching him. by explaining my ethical perspective, steering clear of debate entirely. debating him would definitely not work for the reasons you mentioned. there is a chance that he was a more liberal zionist at one point, as he and i had spoken about our differences of opinion re: israel/palestine a few years ago, and he seemed to understand my perspective then. but i also know that circumstances have changed for him since oct 7.

"you can't reason someone out of a deeply primal need to survive." that's definitely the issue. any threat to israel/questioning of israel's conduct is an existential one for him, and i'm just an extension of that threat now. it makes me incredibly sad for him.

the bitter irony is that he's a historian and was honestly the reason i became a leftist. it's very jarring seeing someone i thought i knew to be so competent and ethical change in real time. there is no reasoning with him, to be sure. not now, at least.

thank you for the thoughtful response.

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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24

What was the post? I think what u do rly depends on #1 how much you care abt and want to reconnect with this person, and #2 how far gone this person is. I think if u explain ur pov in a delicate non argumentative way, not trying to argue or prove something but just explaining ur thought process that could be good. Maybe giving them a chance to express how they came to their conclusions. You would have to be okay with agreeing to disagree though, say that u understand how they got to their conclusions and while u don’t agree u respect and care abt them as a person and want to stay friends. That your opinion does not come from a hate of jews but from an empathetic place. You need to be ok with it not working, and u definitely can’t come on strong and super anti zionist, but i think it’s possible.

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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Who are some of your favorite Jewish characters (whether in TV, books, etc.)?

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Jul 31 '24

Tommy Pickles from Rugrats was a classic in my household growing up!

And while I obviously don't agree with him, I always loved Magneto and his portrayal of what is basically Mutant Zionism (he was built as a combination of Meir Kahane and Malcolm X). He perfectly shows how a Jew can come to Zionism and why, at the end of the day, it is wrong to. Heck, he's so effective a character that some antiZionist non-Jews I know still agree with him! IIRC in the comics he even had his own arc where he even founded a Mutant Israel called Genosha where he ethnically cleansed the non-Mutant natives (though the natives were enslaving mutants), but a comic reader would have more details about that. He's a really useful tool in any I/P discussion I have with fellow nerds, which is basically all of them.

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u/yeehaw_batman Ashkenazi Aug 01 '24

my favorite has always been magneto

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3

u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

What is a good way to deal with Jewish Zionists in your personal life or at work?
In recent months I have only had two real conversations with my Jewish acquaintances about Israel. After both of these conversations I felt resentful. To me it seemed like they wanted to establish the parameters of the conversation before I had a chance to say anything or make any criticism of Israel or the current war. These people know me well, so it hurts to think that they might be wary of what I might say or what I might be thinking. It hurts to think that I have views that are going to upset my friends. I hate censoring myself because I spend a lot of time thinking about my ideas in general, and my Jewish friends have been some of my most reliable and compassionate sounding boards—especially when it comes to political or identity issues. But now those relationships have become more superficial and I hate that. Isn’t it tacit approval of Zionism to stay silent? Isn’t it just completely fake to let people believe that I don’t have anti Zionist views?

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u/douglasstoll Reconstructionist Jul 31 '24

I am assuming from this question and thread that you are not Jewish. My advice is particular to me, I don't speak for anyone else.

You have to ask yourself what do you value about these acquaintanceships, and which is more important, being "right" about a current event or maintaining the relationship?

Also, context matters. Are these coworkers? How are these conversations happening? Are you initiating, or are they? I have to say even as a Diasporist Jew I'm pretty tired of playing "Jewish Ambassador" and being approached by people I don't know very well asking me to explain things. I usually oblige, but it is tiring.

Finally, this is general advice applicable to everyone: you do not have to change your deeply held personal beliefs to show curiousity and empathy to others, even those you disagree with. In any given interaction, rather than being concerned about being "completely fake," be concerned that you have made space for the other person to feel heard and understood. Listen to comprehend, try to understand what and why they are saying what they are saying. Don't listen just to respond and argue. Not only will you gain deeper insight, this has the effect of creating more room for discourse, and encouraging the other person (if they are ready) to approach you and your views also with curiosity and empathy.

If you're having these conversations to try and be "right" about Israel, and you're not Jewish or Palestinian, you're going to have a very tough time. If you are concerned with being "right" and "not completely fake" then limit yourself to objective facts as best you can.

I maintain my curiosity myself, though. How are these conversations with acquaintances happening? What's the context?

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

I think what I am talking about is the expectation that you must be a Zionist, or a terrorist supporting psychopath. This is a problem when the person whether the person you’re talking to is Jewish or not. But it can take on a tone of “you wish me harm” when the person is Jewish. It’s very alienating to have these two ideas constantly conflated.

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24

Something to remember is that the Zionism you see amongst most Western Jews is born out of generational trauma from multiple genocides (especially, but not exclusively, from the literal invention of the word, the Holocaust). Otherwise rational Jews will -- either subconsciously or consciously -- regress to the equivalent of a "fight or flight" response when it comes to "Jewish safety" and if you don't have the lived experience of that its difficult to understand. Heck, even I am aware that I too do the same thing, except I choose "flight" over "fight" and view myself as pro-Diasporization (as in, "they can't kill all of us if we're everywhere"). You can't heal that kind of thing without a deep personal understanding of it.

If your worry is how they see you, you basically have 2 options: they will either see you as an antisemite or as willfully ignorant (neither of which I'm saying you are, of course). If you value these relationships then it might be worth saying something next time of the effect of "I acknowledge I don't understand Zionism or Jewish history, but I also can't see how I can rectify it with the actions Israel is taking right now." and then, most importantly, not talking about it again. The "agree to disagree and then mostly ignore it in the future" approach is one I, and many other Jews, have taken with plenty of friends and family to reasonable results.

I also want to re-emphasize what /u/douglasstoll mentioned around bringing this up -- please don't bring this up with Jews unprompted, especially if you wouldn't do the same with non-Jews around you. I personally get so fucking tired of Goyim thinking that Jew = "time to talk about the Middle East". Its like asking random American Palestinians their opinions about 10/7 just because theyre Palestinian, with of course the caveats that 10/7 is no where near the same scale of atrocity and had an explicit justifiable goal of helping end the occupation vs just lashing out due to fascism arising out of generational trauma.

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Yeah, agree to disagree and not talking about it in the future is basically what has occurred with close relationships I have where this disagreement exists.

I think I’ve been frustrated that I never really got to speak my mind before the disagreement even happened. But, I think I have to assume and accept that people are more than capable of figuring out my way of thinking based on what I am NOT saying.

I’m definitely not running around harassing Jews trying to talk about Israel. I just have a couple of Jewish friends that I routinely discuss politics and identity issues with. So, it really sucks that we have agreed on so much up to this point, and now there’s going to be something that we can’t talk about.

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u/douglasstoll Reconstructionist Jul 31 '24

Counter-sign to all of this, and special emphasis to the instinct behind being in favor of diasporization. Love to you, my sibling!

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u/douglasstoll Reconstructionist Jul 31 '24 edited Jul 31 '24

Whose expectations of whom?

Please, help me help you, in what context are these interactions happening?

School? Work? Friends? Strangers on the Internet? Strangers in public? Across lines at demonstrations?

ETA, I'm happy you are asking this question here with what seems like the intent to grow more effective and inclusive as a communicator, that's a great thing. Thank you.

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Great question. Since October 7, I have only spoken about this issue with four people. One is my Jewish/Buddhist friend, one is my Jewish coworker who I can talk about basically anything with, the other two are white, Christian friends.

Who’s expectation of whom? This is so difficult to answer. Maybe the college protests are the easiest example for me to use. The valid criticisms of Israel have been completely dismissed and ignored. It was frightening when I saw people who share my views labeled antisemites, crazy leftists, or just plain ignorant. I honestly didn’t expect that. Three out of four of the people I mentioned above genuinely surprised me when they criticized the protesters. The only one who didn’t was the hippie white guy from Northern California who is basically a communist.

Does that make sense? I think it’s also media bias, and bias in the education system that I saw in college. We’re trained to see terrorists as inherently evil people. Whereas my contrarian view has always been that it’s worth considering people’s motives even if you’re condemning their actions. I see a deep, interesting conversation there that basically no one seems willing to have with me.

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Jul 31 '24

What is a good way to deal with Jewish Zionists in your personal life or at work?

The same way you would deal with anybody else who you have a big disagreement with over an important political issue.

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Kinda. I don’t think people are fully understanding that this issue is different than other political issues. I put work in specifically because I work in a place that has implicitly taken Israel’s side and allowed conversations to unfold in support of Israel, but not the other way around. There’s a real threat of social ostracism or even potentially professional retaliation for criticizing Israel.

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Jul 31 '24

What sort of industry are you in? Is there any particular reason for you or anybody else at your work to be talking about Israel with some regularity?

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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 01 '24

I am doubtful that this issue is truly different than other political issues. I am sure that there are people at your workplace who feel that they cannot speak up about other majority opinions.

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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Aug 02 '24

While i understand u being disappointed with their wariness, you need to understand where they r coming from. Jews are very paranoid abt antisemitism especially now, and they r very aware and hyper vigilant of it. Being lectured by non jews abt anti semitism or judaism is not fun, for anyone. I think u should listen to their parameters. See if they r reasonable and if so continue the conversation. If not explain why u don’t want one of the parameters. I also wouldn’t necessarily start the conversation with them, but engage if they bring it up. Make it very clear ur intentions and respect and care for them as people.

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Aug 02 '24

Thanks, this is all good advice. But after thinking about it I have somewhat of a different issue in mind now. I’m a Latino and I keep thinking about my two Jewish friends who have talked with me extensively about race, identity, politics, oppression, prejudice, history, activism, etc.

I think my mind has been blown because they have both responded to this war in a way that I didn’t expect at all. I find it inconsistent with some of the other things we have talked about at length over the years. Plus, it’s really confusing because that we didn’t really have a conversation, from my end it felt very defensive and awkward, which is unusual for these relationships.

There are probably a lot of people who are progressive or leftist on most issues but not on this one. Maybe that’s something that can happen when you feel threatened and unsafe? I have certainly been through that with my own stuff.

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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Aug 03 '24

Reading all of that rly doesn’t surprise me at all. Israel and zionism is very personal and deeply entrenched in a lot of jews, including socially progressive and even economically progressive ones. Most US jews are socially progressive and atleast moderately economically progressive, yet israel is still broadly popular. This subreddit and JVP and INN exist for a reason and show a very real phenomenon of anti and non zionist jews, but just bcz we get a lot of media coverage and attention in activist and protest spaces doesn’t mean we represent a large portion of diaspora jews.

It’s also definitely abt feeling threatened and unsafe and generational and taught trauma.

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u/itsyourbirthdayz Non-Jewish Ally Aug 03 '24

Thanks! This makes so much sense. I think my friends have basically said what you are saying, but the communication was somewhat indirect and I’ve had a hard time interpreting it.
I need to remember that I have the exact same inconsistencies when it comes to what has been traumatic and threatening to me. In fact, one of my friends I am talking about has pointed this out to me just a few months ago.

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