r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Jul 31 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 31 '24

Me again! (I'm keen). Two parter today on Judaism, if you please:

1/2: From what I have read and heard, a (religious) Jew is someone who keeps the 613 commandments. (Mizvot?) Is that definition unanimous across different sects & denominations?

2/2: I am not religious but over the years have read a bit of Christian Old Testament & some Quran. From a theological perspective, I personally cannot reconcile Old Testament and Zionism. The current state of Israel & it's rhetoric looks & sounds like apostasy / blasphemy to me. What is your take and are there relevant commandments, beliefs or teachings which you believe are contradictory (or valid) to modern day Zionism in Judaism? EG I have heard of the Three Oaths.

TY 🙏🏻

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 31 '24

2/2: I am not religious but over the years have read a bit of Christian Old Testament & some Quran. From a theological perspective, I personally cannot reconcile Old Testament and Zionism. The current state of Israel & it's rhetoric looks & sounds like apostasy / blasphemy to me. What is your take and are there relevant commandments, beliefs or teachings which you believe are contradictory (or valid) to modern day Zionism in Judaism? EG I have heard of the Three Oaths.

Have you heard the old saying "2 Jews, 3 opinions"? Well, it is certainly true for religious Jewish views on Zionism. Traditional Judaism believes it is a great mitzvah to live in the Land of Israel, the theological debate is whether there can or should be Jewish rule in the Land of Israel before the Messianic age. First, it is crucial to understand that Jews don't view the Torah/Tanakh/Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament" is an exclusively Christian term, by the way) as literal, it is viewed through the interpretive texts of Rabbinic literature known as the "Oral Torah", most notable being the Mishnah and Talmud. But these interpretive texts are themselves open to interpretation and have their own commentaries and sub-interpretations, which is why you see many different types of religious Jews practicing Judaism in different ways.

In short, there are Jews who believe Zionism is incompatible with Judaism (such as the Satmar Hasidim), and there are Jews who view Zionism as a divinely-inspired precursor to a prophesied Messianic age (an ideology known as Religious Zionism). But there are also religious Jews at various places between these two extremes, such as Zionists who are religious but don't support the theological ideologies of Religious Zionism (as varied as Conservative Judaism, some "Yeshivish" Orthodox communities, and even some Haredi communities), and non-Zionists who nonetheless actively support the State of Israel (such as Chabad and many Litvish communities). It is a complicated, varied, multi-faceted web of religious and political beliefs.

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Jul 31 '24

As a funny addendum to the "2 Jews 3 opinions" thing, the Mishnah and Gemara are quite literally a collection of Rabbis arguing with eachother over even the smallest or most contrived things, mostly to no clear resolution.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

I've heard about such conflicts in Talmud but it was dismissed as antisemitic trope. Will put it on the list of things to research - TY!

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

Thank you. Also some great points for perspective & to further digest.

I have certainly heard the saying, but not experienced it due to my social circles.

I guess this is the same paradox found in any human extrapolation & interpretation of instructions.

(I may have some attributions incorrect here, but the point is my logical brain is struggling to rationalise interpretations of faith.)

The part I struggle with is if for example if the 613 are largely based on earlier events in Leviticus / Deuteronomy and Three Oaths are based on later events (EG Kings) doesn't the chronology impact the validity of the previous teaching?

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 01 '24

The part I struggle with is if for example if the 613 are largely based on earlier events in Leviticus / Deuteronomy and Three Oaths are based on later events (EG Kings) doesn't the chronology impact the validity of the previous teaching?

That isn't the Jewish approach. The 613 commandments are derived only from the Torah (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible/Tanakh). The other sections of the Hebrew Bible, Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (Ketuvim), do not have the same stature as the Torah. They are seen as holy scripture and are the source of fundamental Jewish lore and liturgy, but they are not the source of commandments and never supersede the Torah.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, Jewish law and teachings come from the Rabbinic interpretations of the Hebrew Bible known as the Oral Torah. The concept of the 613 commandments comes from the Talmud, as does the concept of the Three Oaths. However, the Three Oaths are not commandments from the Torah but are presented as an interpretation (known as exegisis/midrash) of verses from the "Song of Songs" in the Writings/Ketuvim. As such, they are interpreted and understood in different ways both in the Talmud itself and by the post-Talmudic Rabbinic commentaries and authorities.

The Talmud was written at least 1,500 years ago as a compilation of debates and discussions between prominent Rabbis, so even within the Talmud there are differing views and opinions that are often not concluded or settled. Because of this, Jews have traditionally based their theological beliefs on the many additional post-Talmudic Rabbinic interpretations that aim to further explain and codify the Talmud.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

Thank you for the insights. Lots to digest & research here.

How are conflicts within the 613 reconciled? EG: 33 (do not murder), 35 (do not kidnap), 37 (do not covet / scheme to acquire), 64 (do not oppress), 91 (do not let Canaanites dwell), 525 (kill everyone?), 612 (exterminate Canaanites?).

Do you think this why we see some Zionist rhetoric that labels children as combatants or denying Palestinians' existence - to make current events theologically palatable or is that irrelevant from the theological perspective?

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Aug 01 '24 edited Aug 01 '24

Positive commandments cannot override negative commandments, with the sole exception of saving a life. What list of mitzvot are you referring to? Also none of these actually conflict with each other. And "Kill everyone" is for sure not a commandment. Where are you reading this?

No, this is irrelevant from a theological perspective, neither of those are theological opinions.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 01 '24

Everything is discussed and debated in detail in the Talmud and the further Rabbinic commentaries. Jewish law (Halacha) is a legal system with precedents, exceptions, rulings, and nuance.

... to make current events theologically palatable or is that irrelevant from the theological perspective?

Halacha has never been invoked by the State of Israel to justify their actions. Otherwise, this is a very loaded question that is impossible to answer given the nature of how Jewish law works.

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u/SpiritualUse121 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 01 '24

I think I am starting to understand. Thank you for entertaining my clumsily worded questions.