"Ask A Jew" Wednesday

[u/AutoModerator]

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz]

What is a good way to deal with Jewish Zionists in your personal life or at work?
In recent months I have only had two real conversations with my Jewish acquaintances about Israel. After both of these conversations I felt resentful. To me it seemed like they wanted to establish the parameters of the conversation before I had a chance to say anything or make any criticism of Israel or the current war. These people know me well, so it hurts to think that they might be wary of what I might say or what I might be thinking. It hurts to think that I have views that are going to upset my friends. I hate censoring myself because I spend a lot of time thinking about my ideas in general, and my Jewish friends have been some of my most reliable and compassionate sounding boards—especially when it comes to political or identity issues. But now those relationships have become more superficial and I hate that. Isn’t it tacit approval of Zionism to stay silent? Isn’t it just completely fake to let people believe that I don’t have anti Zionist views?

[u/douglasstoll → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

I am assuming from this question and thread that you are not Jewish. My advice is particular to me, I don't speak for anyone else.

You have to ask yourself what do you value about these acquaintanceships, and which is more important, being "right" about a current event or maintaining the relationship?

Also, context matters. Are these coworkers? How are these conversations happening? Are you initiating, or are they? I have to say even as a Diasporist Jew I'm pretty tired of playing "Jewish Ambassador" and being approached by people I don't know very well asking me to explain things. I usually oblige, but it is tiring.

Finally, this is general advice applicable to everyone: you do not have to change your deeply held personal beliefs to show curiousity and empathy to others, even those you disagree with. In any given interaction, rather than being concerned about being "completely fake," be concerned that you have made space for the other person to feel heard and understood. Listen to comprehend, try to understand what and why they are saying what they are saying. Don't listen just to respond and argue. Not only will you gain deeper insight, this has the effect of creating more room for discourse, and encouraging the other person (if they are ready) to approach you and your views also with curiosity and empathy.

If you're having these conversations to try and be "right" about Israel, and you're not Jewish or Palestinian, you're going to have a very tough time. If you are concerned with being "right" and "not completely fake" then limit yourself to objective facts as best you can.

I maintain my curiosity myself, though. How are these conversations with acquaintances happening? What's the context?

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/douglasstoll]

I think what I am talking about is the expectation that you must be a Zionist, or a terrorist supporting psychopath. This is a problem when the person whether the person you’re talking to is Jewish or not. But it can take on a tone of “you wish me harm” when the person is Jewish. It’s very alienating to have these two ideas constantly conflated.

[u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

Something to remember is that the Zionism you see amongst most Western Jews is born out of generational trauma from multiple genocides (especially, but not exclusively, from the literal invention of the word, the Holocaust). Otherwise rational Jews will -- either subconsciously or consciously -- regress to the equivalent of a "fight or flight" response when it comes to "Jewish safety" and if you don't have the lived experience of that its difficult to understand. Heck, even I am aware that I too do the same thing, except I choose "flight" over "fight" and view myself as pro-Diasporization (as in, "they can't kill all of us if we're everywhere"). You can't heal that kind of thing without a deep personal understanding of it.

If your worry is how they see you, you basically have 2 options: they will either see you as an antisemite or as willfully ignorant (neither of which I'm saying you are, of course). If you value these relationships then it might be worth saying something next time of the effect of "I acknowledge I don't understand Zionism or Jewish history, but I also can't see how I can rectify it with the actions Israel is taking right now." and then, most importantly, not talking about it again. The "agree to disagree and then mostly ignore it in the future" approach is one I, and many other Jews, have taken with plenty of friends and family to reasonable results.

I also want to re-emphasize what /u/douglasstoll mentioned around bringing this up -- please don't bring this up with Jews unprompted, especially if you wouldn't do the same with non-Jews around you. I personally get so fucking tired of Goyim thinking that Jew = "time to talk about the Middle East". Its like asking random American Palestinians their opinions about 10/7 just because theyre Palestinian, with of course the caveats that 10/7 is no where near the same scale of atrocity and had an explicit justifiable goal of helping end the occupation vs just lashing out due to fascism arising out of generational trauma.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet]

Yeah, agree to disagree and not talking about it in the future is basically what has occurred with close relationships I have where this disagreement exists.

I think I’ve been frustrated that I never really got to speak my mind before the disagreement even happened. But, I think I have to assume and accept that people are more than capable of figuring out my way of thinking based on what I am NOT saying.

I’m definitely not running around harassing Jews trying to talk about Israel. I just have a couple of Jewish friends that I routinely discuss politics and identity issues with. So, it really sucks that we have agreed on so much up to this point, and now there’s going to be something that we can’t talk about.

[u/douglasstoll → u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet]

Counter-sign to all of this, and special emphasis to the instinct behind being in favor of diasporization. Love to you, my sibling!

[u/douglasstoll → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

Whose expectations of whom?

Please, help me help you, in what context are these interactions happening?

School? Work? Friends? Strangers on the Internet? Strangers in public? Across lines at demonstrations?

ETA, I'm happy you are asking this question here with what seems like the intent to grow more effective and inclusive as a communicator, that's a great thing. Thank you.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/douglasstoll]

Great question. Since October 7, I have only spoken about this issue with four people. One is my Jewish/Buddhist friend, one is my Jewish coworker who I can talk about basically anything with, the other two are white, Christian friends.

Who’s expectation of whom? This is so difficult to answer. Maybe the college protests are the easiest example for me to use. The valid criticisms of Israel have been completely dismissed and ignored. It was frightening when I saw people who share my views labeled antisemites, crazy leftists, or just plain ignorant. I honestly didn’t expect that. Three out of four of the people I mentioned above genuinely surprised me when they criticized the protesters. The only one who didn’t was the hippie white guy from Northern California who is basically a communist.

Does that make sense? I think it’s also media bias, and bias in the education system that I saw in college. We’re trained to see terrorists as inherently evil people. Whereas my contrarian view has always been that it’s worth considering people’s motives even if you’re condemning their actions. I see a deep, interesting conversation there that basically no one seems willing to have with me.

[u/lilleff512 → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

What is a good way to deal with Jewish Zionists in your personal life or at work?

The same way you would deal with anybody else who you have a big disagreement with over an important political issue.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/lilleff512]

Kinda. I don’t think people are fully understanding that this issue is different than other political issues. I put work in specifically because I work in a place that has implicitly taken Israel’s side and allowed conversations to unfold in support of Israel, but not the other way around. There’s a real threat of social ostracism or even potentially professional retaliation for criticizing Israel.

[u/lilleff512 → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

What sort of industry are you in? Is there any particular reason for you or anybody else at your work to be talking about Israel with some regularity?

[u/yungsemite → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

I am doubtful that this issue is truly different than other political issues. I am sure that there are people at your workplace who feel that they cannot speak up about other majority opinions.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

While i understand u being disappointed with their wariness, you need to understand where they r coming from. Jews are very paranoid abt antisemitism especially now, and they r very aware and hyper vigilant of it. Being lectured by non jews abt anti semitism or judaism is not fun, for anyone. I think u should listen to their parameters. See if they r reasonable and if so continue the conversation. If not explain why u don’t want one of the parameters. I also wouldn’t necessarily start the conversation with them, but engage if they bring it up. Make it very clear ur intentions and respect and care for them as people.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/Pitiful_Meringue_57]

Thanks, this is all good advice. But after thinking about it I have somewhat of a different issue in mind now. I’m a Latino and I keep thinking about my two Jewish friends who have talked with me extensively about race, identity, politics, oppression, prejudice, history, activism, etc.

I think my mind has been blown because they have both responded to this war in a way that I didn’t expect at all. I find it inconsistent with some of the other things we have talked about at length over the years. Plus, it’s really confusing because that we didn’t really have a conversation, from my end it felt very defensive and awkward, which is unusual for these relationships.

There are probably a lot of people who are progressive or leftist on most issues but not on this one. Maybe that’s something that can happen when you feel threatened and unsafe? I have certainly been through that with my own stuff.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/itsyourbirthdayz]

Reading all of that rly doesn’t surprise me at all. Israel and zionism is very personal and deeply entrenched in a lot of jews, including socially progressive and even economically progressive ones. Most US jews are socially progressive and atleast moderately economically progressive, yet israel is still broadly popular. This subreddit and JVP and INN exist for a reason and show a very real phenomenon of anti and non zionist jews, but just bcz we get a lot of media coverage and attention in activist and protest spaces doesn’t mean we represent a large portion of diaspora jews.

It’s also definitely abt feeling threatened and unsafe and generational and taught trauma.

[u/itsyourbirthdayz → u/Pitiful_Meringue_57]

Thanks! This makes so much sense. I think my friends have basically said what you are saying, but the communication was somewhat indirect and I’ve had a hard time interpreting it.
I need to remember that I have the exact same inconsistencies when it comes to what has been traumatic and threatening to me. In fact, one of my friends I am talking about has pointed this out to me just a few months ago.