r/JewsOfConscience • u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist • Jul 22 '24
Discussion Dementia is Disqualifying, but Not Genocide
It's really disturbing to me that dementia is disqualifying for Joe Biden, but him doing a genocide is not. That shows how Palestinians are viewed in America by the political class.
If only Hitler had dementia, maybe we could've gotten rid of him sooner, since the Holocaust wouldn't have been a problem for him with his domestic constituency.
What do others think?
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u/Vivid24 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
It’s the whitewashing of Biden’s legacy that is disturbing to me. Gaza shouldn’t be some afterthought like how some people are treating it as. There were moments where Biden pushed for progressive policies, but his handling of Gaza, or more the role America should play in Gaza, has been nothing short of horrific.
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u/mobert_roses Jewish Jul 22 '24
The reality is that the vast majority of voters do not view Biden as "doing a genocide".
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I don't think there are any public opinion polls that pose the question in those terms.
But ya, it's likely most of the voting public do not see things that way.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Jul 22 '24
I think more of the public believes that Israel has participated in ethnic cleansing than not (though a majority is unlikely to know enough to have an opinion one way or another).
But some people may support sending weapons despite the ethnic cleansing... because they'd generally support ethnic cleansing also. I mean Trump's platform is part "let's send all the Mexicans back home" and like 50% of Americans support him.
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u/TinyZoro Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
This is the crazy bit for me. People posting that despite him being a good guy.. he’s never been a good guy he’s old enough to be a segregationist. He’s a war on drugs, patriot act supporting, Zionist fauning conservative. By any metric.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 22 '24
Let's not forget that he's also the architect of student loan debt-peonage. The man is absolute garbage.
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Jul 22 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mobert_roses Jewish Jul 23 '24
He's genuinely done a lot of good domestically. Very difficult to separate that from the absolute catastrophe in Gaza. I suspect that Harris might be slightly better on Israel/Palestine because she simply has not been in the ultra-zionist milieu of national politics for as long. I could be wrong
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u/Last_Tarrasque Non religious Jewish communist Jul 23 '24
Like what, what good has he done for westerners (the people you clearly care about most)
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Do we have survey data on that? If true, this is an indictment of both the dishonest news media and the voters themselves.
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u/Jche98 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Hitler actually had Parkinson's which affected his decision making in the last years of the war. It's not clear if this was the primary factor but there were actually many assassination attempts on Hitler by high-ranking Nazis who worried his poor decisions were losing the war.
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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Also there were ideas floated in Allied Command d to kill Hitler in the middle of the war but because the Bohemian Corporal was micromanaging more and more aspects of the war and running them poorly, it was feared a more competent person would take over and draw out the war longer.
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u/Impressive_Wall4186 Reform Jul 22 '24
He was also a raging drug addict and a test subject for drugs of all kinds
A lot of Nazis were on drugs.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Interesting, thanks. It's been said that they could've won the war if they didn't launch the catastrophic Operation Barbarossa and open that new Eastern front against the Soviet Union.
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u/BadFurDay Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Definitely not. Nazis lost the war before it even started, by the mid 1930s it was already done.
Pure fascism has no long term plan. Hitler made the whole German economy a purely war economy, which gave an impression of growth, wealth, and sustainability… as long as there was land to conquer. But what happens once a fascist economy stops conquering, stealing, enslaving? The third reich was going to crumble no matter what.
In any case, Hitler always intended to attack the USSR no matter what, so there's no possible alternative history where he doesn't. Barbarossa was doomed in every parallel timeline, with the german logistical issues, allies supplying the USSR, and Japanese never intending to help.
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u/suaveponcho Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
You’re 100% right. Hitler literally financed the German war economy by accruing debts that were intended to be paid by looting the gold reserves of countries they occupied… which was itself a pipe dream that was totally insufficient for their debts.
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u/mcgillhufflepuff Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Biden does not have a dementia diagnosis that we know of. You can have cognitive decline from just being old w/o having dementia, fyi.
Some people get more aggressive w/ dementia. Something tells me Hitler's followers wouldn't mind that.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
"Biden does not have a dementia diagnosis that we know of. You can have cognitive decline from just being old w/o having dementia, fyi."
OK fair enough.
"Some people get more aggressive w/ dementia. Something tells me Hitler's followers wouldn't mind that."
Interesting point.
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u/ezequielrose Jul 22 '24
America is a colonial occupation so anyone in the lead must always maintain a prosperous hold on the lands the country occupies. Genocides are how that's done. I would never ever expect a single POTUS to ever do anything else but continue to commit genocides, create the conditions for genocides, and oversee our allies carrying them out for our payout somehow later.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
It’s just.. unsurprising. Pretty sure any US president (yes even if Jill Stein somehow managed to win) would not discontinue the genocide.
I don’t fully understand how us politics work but I know it’s not only up to the president here and I know there are ripple effect consequences for the US if the US stops supporting Israel, which is why politicians don’t do it
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 22 '24
I don't trust Jill Stein's intentions anyways when she only shows up in politics for a presidential run
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Yea me neither. I’d never vote for her when she is third party. The electoral college makes it impossible for a third party candidate to really win anyway.
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u/Medium_Note_9613 Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
see, thats the issue. its a stupid vicious cycle. americans don't vote for 3rd parties because 3rd parties can't really win. but the reason 3rd parties can't really win is that americans don't vote for them.
all it takes is one famous election campaign to break the cycle. unfortunately, the chances of it are slim in 2024.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Agree with you—kind of. I hat don’t think the current system is really set up for a 3rd party candidate to win
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 22 '24
It's not. Our system is rigged. We need ranked choice voting (which some states are already putting into place but a few have banned it outright). All the more reason to vote in our local and statewide elections
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Question for you—I’ve heard from some political scientists that rank choice would be bad.. that’s how Israel keeps getting bibi and how hitler was elected.
Is there any truth to this?
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 22 '24
They're charlatans, just like the scientists who insist that fossil fuel consumption doesn't cause global warming.
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 22 '24
I'm not a political scientist, first and foremost, just a college student lol. But from what I've read, ranked choice voting, or something like party list proportional representation, would probably work out better in the US. I think it's wrong that a candidate can win the popular vote but somehow not the election.
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u/maxy_fruvous Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I’m not clear on the exact type of system used to elect either, but Ranked choice voting didn’t cause Europes raging antisemitism or the Nazi’s seizing power after winning only as a minority government any more than it has caused Israel’s intention to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestine. As far as I know, again anyone correct me please, but I’m not sure that Israel uses RCV, they use proportional representation, but those terms aren’t mutually exclusive or inclusive. They can be used together.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 23 '24
It was direct election of the Israeli PM combined with Shimon Perez's mental retardation that made Mileikowsky take the prime ministership in 1996 despite Likud losing the Knesset to Labor.
Also the idea that RCV == Hitler is so risible I don't know how someone takes it seriously.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 23 '24
Oh, and coming back to this a day later -- political scientists and bourgeois economists engage in apologetics, not inquiry. Their facts and figures may be relied on, like "in May 1940 the United States produced such-and-such an amount of pig iron", but their explanation of meaning and alternatives isn't reliable. Treat them kind of like you would if you had the opportunity to go back to 1855 and talk with an economist from Virginia about the production of cotton and tobacco.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Jul 22 '24
Jill Stein very explicitly would stop sending weapons or any other form of aid to Israel and likely move to sanction them. She wouldn't invade them though.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Yea I mean.. we’ll see. You notice the shift with AOC? And Bernie? Career politicians will always do what keeps them in power or they know they’ll be out. It would be very risky for the American empire to stop supporting Israel..
Jill would be better than Biden for sure. I just think other things need to change in American government.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Jul 22 '24
Hasn't Bernie shifted the other way? He's gone from publicly supporting Israel but condemning genocide to maybe saying they have the right to exist but not expressing support for them.
Bernie was probably a Zionist at some point. Hopefully not any more. I think he would have actually stopped sending weapons/aid if he had been president.
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u/Launch_Zealot Arab/Armenian-American Ally Jul 23 '24
The executive branch can stop weapons shipments to Israel today if they wanted to.
Congress would have a few options on the table in response, but they would have a hard time directly forcing the President to resume shipments.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Can you explain the purpose of this comment?
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
lol no… not what I’m saying
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I don't care about the ripple effects. What? Losing money from bribers (donors). Oh well. I understand how US politics work and the president only needs to pick up the phone and make one call and this shit is all over!
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 22 '24
Did I say I do? I don’t either. But politicians do because that’s how they stay in power. System needs an overhaul. That’s all I’m saying
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I don't care if he stays in power. I care about him ending the genocide, which he could with one phone call. If you agree then I apologize for misunderstanding. Cheers.
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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 22 '24
Biden is no longer running for re-election. Are you serious about advocating for palestinians? Tell me about this phone call, how does that work?
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Hi there!
When participating in discussions, please remember the human and be civil.
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u/atav1k Antisatanic Jesuit Jul 22 '24
While I agree I also think you can’t nearly separate the two. Under Biden’s watch the US internally and externally is recognized as aiding a genocide. It’s hard to say if Dems would have turned on him so quickly if he wasn’t already orchestrating mass atrocities.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 22 '24
No, the Democrats are fine with the atrocities. This is just how the capitalist system operates, and they are a party of capitalists (this is separate from the rubes who vote for them). At something like ten million preventable deaths per year in order to keep capital accumulation going, Gaza's death toll is close to a rounding error.
The two problems are the upper midwest has a sizable Muslim minority bloc and the Democrats' "who else are you going to vote for?" plus ethnic brokerage politics grand strategy has run aground on the shoal of "Zionism pits the Muslim and Jewish democratic base against each other" on the one hand, and on the other hand Biden's implosion at the debate. While the national party rarely shows any interest in actually competing in elections and prefers a "If you don't vote for us, something is wrong with you" message, some of its members in elected office have career aspirations. And let's be clear, Biden's inability to overcome the Muslim-Jewish voting bloc contradiction threatens the survival of things like NATO which are necessary to keep the US's empire running, and the Democrats' core constituency is "people and institutions that need and keep the US empire running".
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
No idea why this was downvoted.
Biden is a career war-monger & supporter of Israel's war crimes.
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u/atav1k Antisatanic Jesuit Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
I take back my comment anyway. Looks like they really gunning for pro Israel hawk Josh Shapiro as VP. Whether that’s a Harris or some AIPAC/DNC choice makes little difference to me.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I think to the extent that's true, it's in regards to the Gaza genocide hurting his electoral chances. This may have played a factor. Thanks.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 22 '24
It's true in the way that an incubator causes an egg to hatch. I can't put a rock in the incubator and expect to get a chick out on the other side; clearly it's a combination of the external effect of the incubator working together with the internal structure of the egg.
So it's not Gaza per se, it's Gaza, plus Democrats' dependence on Muslim' votes in the Upper Midwest, plus Democrats' dependence on Jewish votes elsewhere, plus Biden's abysmal showing in the debate.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Do you have any articles that detail democrap elites wanting Biden to step aside because they're concerned he's too unpopular due to Gaza policy? I haven't seen it.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 22 '24
Since when has the Democrat Party been transparent to the proletariat?
It's kind of obvious, though, that different Democrats will have to court Zionists and their victims if they're to win in their districts. It's further obvious that the contradiction in material interests will set up factions within the Democrat Party. And finally it's obvious that it's so beyond Biden's abilities to run a campaign that papers over the contradiction until November 6th that it produced a factional conflict within the party that led to an open rebellion. The Democrats aren't going to change course on Israel, but they are going to have Harris run a campaign that tries to distract from its atrocities in Gaza.
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u/uniqueUsername_1024 Jewish Communist Jul 22 '24
I do think part of why Biden got disqualified has been his handling of the genocide—or, rather, the public reaction to it. Many, many younger voters are enraged with him (and rightly so), and there have been protests branding him "Genocide Joe" in every major city for 9+ months now. That makes an impact.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
I'd like to think so but I haven't seen even one anonymous report saying Biden is being pressured to step down because of Gaza. Have you seen any? Please share if you do.
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u/uniqueUsername_1024 Jewish Communist Jul 23 '24
No, it's more speculation. I'm not saying you can draw one straight line from Gaza to this, but I think it's emphasized his unelectability amid an increasingly progressive base. Maybe just wishful thinking, though.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
I think it helped to weaken his resolve maybe? But the bribers (donors) who pushed him out are pro-genocide or at least pro-Israel generally. I think at the very least, it was in the background and made him look terrible.
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u/uniqueUsername_1024 Jewish Communist Jul 23 '24
That's true, but they're also pro-not losing elections (i.e. retaining power.) It made him more of a liability; Brant Rosen just published a great piece on it!
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 24 '24
Some bribers bribe both parties to hedge their bets. Most of these Democrat bribers are exclusively Democrat. They control the party and it's really revealing, isn't it?
Can you a post a link? Thank you.
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u/uniqueUsername_1024 Jewish Communist Jul 24 '24
I linked it in my text, but I can give you a direct link too - https://rabbibrant.com/2024/07/23/why-ill-still-be-participating-in-the-protests-at-the-dnc-next-month/
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 24 '24
I like Rabbi Brent but I think he's engaging in a bit of wishful thinking. As I've noted elsewhere, there was some memo that told people to refer to Kamala as empathetic, which Brent does here. I don't think unconditional support Israel is empathetic. I don't understand where people are getting this from. She called for a 6 week pause to Israel's genocide to help make it more sustainable and lasting. The whole point of this pause was to allow more aid to come in during that time which would buy Israel more time to do the genocide longer.
Linda Sarsour and Waleed Shahid are democrat party stooges who are also lying to us about Kamala and who lied about Biden. They sold us the lesser of two evils which got us a genocide. Anyone who recommended a Biden vote in 2020 to "stop fascism" should never be able to show their face in public again.
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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 24 '24 edited Jul 24 '24
Do you support trump? Did you support him in 2020?
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u/Last_Tarrasque Non religious Jewish communist Jul 23 '24
Dementia is a threat to US imperialism and US capital, genocide is just the cost of doing business. The simple logic of imperialism is that the lives of workers (especially those in the imperial periphery) are value only as foreign secondary markets (with low rates of profit) and as cheap sources of labor. On the other hand any threat to the maintenance of Imperialism must be removed.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 23 '24
I take issue with the notion that genocide is a "cost" of doing business. Munitions are single-use, and as such avoid the phenomenon of market saturation. This is great for the weapons manufacturers.
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
I think Biden’s Israel stance has had more to do with pressure to get him out than you think. He’s hemorrhaging young voters over this stuff. Party leadership knows this. I’d be surprised if Harris didn’t support a ceasefire and more conditional aid. It’s becoming a more popular position that more mainstream politicians are getting friendlier to.
But also, Biden isn’t personally carrying out a genocide. Netanyahu is. Biden’s enabling it by not withholding US support, but he’d be cool with giving Israel money in any situation regardless of what they’re doing or who’s in charge. He’s uncritical about Israel. He’a been public about how Netanyahu is a problem but he’s from a school of political thought that has aid to Israel as a self evident, non negotiable point, which most Americans also agree with. It’s like being allies with France. Like, of course you support them, why wouldn’t you?
Most Americans don’t even understand the nature of what’s happening in Gaza and they don’t understand that no country on earth gets more money from the US than Israel. They just don’t know that. They do however see a visibly crumbling old man on TV looking like he should be receiving in-home care. There’s so many layers to how all of this is perceived and it all makes a huge difference in what people think is important. It’s not as simple as “we don’t care about Palestinians,” it’s a bigger issue of the public being badly informed about Palestinians and the US establishment being misaligned on Palestinians. Us antizionists are a small minority. We’re can’t expect everyone’s gonna see it the way we do. That’s why we have to keep pushing and speaking up.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
We are absolutely funding the genocide though.
Our weapons and diplomatic cover. I feel 'enabling' is a true characterization but perhaps not enough to capture what we're doing.
We're fully supporting the genocide.
Biden is not innocent. He is a career war-monger.
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 22 '24
I’m not saying he’s innocent at all. His Israel policy is atrocious. He keeps sending them money that they’re using to carry out the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Obviously. But i think it’s closer to something like criminal negligence than any kind of scheming “yes yes, kill the Palestinian civilians yes!” kind of thing.
I don’t think his class of politician thinks of the conflict that way. That’s not their framework or their motivation. They’re trained to give Israel a giant blank check every year and warned that if they’re too critical of Israel, they’ll lose the Jewish vote. It’s bad. It’s stupid. but I don’t think it’s the kind of kill em all mentality that you’re thinking of. Same conclusion, thousands of dead people. But what you’re seeing is a zombie for Israel just kinda doing what the establishment does.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I’m not saying he’s innocent at all.
Oh apologies, I didn't mean to imply you were.
But i think it’s closer to something like criminal negligence than any kind of scheming “yes yes, kill the Palestinian civilians yes!” kind of thing.
I don't think he's making cartoonishly violent remarks about Gaza (at least in public) - BUT he has made cartoonish remarks like that in the past.
During the 1st Lebanon War, Biden defended Israel's bombing campaign by drawing an analogy to Canada.
Biden’s comments were offensive, Begin said. Suddenly he [Biden] said: “What did you do in Lebanon? You annihilated what you annihilated.”
I was certain, recounted Begin, that this was a continuation of his attack against us, but Biden continued: “It was great! It had to be done! If attacks were launched from Canada into the United States, everyone here would have said, ‘Attack all the cities of Canada, and we don’t care if all the civilians get killed.’”
If so, Begin told us, I wondered what all the shouting was about. It turned out Biden wasn’t shouting about the operation in Lebanon at all, he was angry about what Israel was doing in Judea and Samaria . . .
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 22 '24
Fuckin yikes. Well god damn I hadn’t read that quote before. That’s really bad.
I mean look, I think that quote still illustrates what I’m trying to explain is that the whole framework on how most people think of this conflict is security and normal warfare, which is how a lot of genocides are excused. But where as people like Pol Pot and Hitler were expressly interested in eliminating certain ethnicities from their societies, I think to people like Biden, the civilian casualties in Gaza are just collateral damage. Ignoring the numbers of people killed, it’s the difference between the Holocaust and the allied terror bombings of non-strategic German cities.
I absolutely buy that they don’t care, but I don’t think they conceive of it as being the primary purpose of the war. Like, WE know that destroying Gaza and removing its people is why this is all happening. Netanyahu was waiting for this opportunity. But part of why it’s currently successful is that you can argue that it looks like any other war that takes place in cities instead of battlefields. That’s why I think it’s easier for regular people to be mad at him for having some kind of cognitive disease than for throwing money at Israel and being complicit, which he is.
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u/justvisiting7744 Caribbean Sephardic Marxist Jul 23 '24
israel would stop this genocide if the united states told them to. with enough pressure, they would probably (albeit reluctantly) stop military operations, and maybe even pull out of gaza. this genocide is biden’s as much as it is netanyahu’s
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 23 '24
I disagree that the idea that Biden is personally doing the genocide. He okaying funds that are supporting it, but so is congress and I genuinely truly believe that he would support Israel if they did anything. What Israel is up to is almost irrelevant when we’re talking about Joe Biden because he’d support them if they became a single state full democracy with a right of return for Palestinians and he’d support them as they are now, a genocidal right wing anti Palestinian regime. He’s an Israel zombie but I think framing this as Biden’s war on Palestine is just kind of untrue and unhelpful. Like I’m getting into semantics and this is becoming silly and pointless but I just feel like enabling is not the same thing as being the person who is coming up with the idea and doing it.
But yes absolutely. Pressure on Israel can get them to stop. Reagan was a piece of shit but he was somehow better on Israel than Biden. Wild. It’s comforting that the State department staffers who have quit over Biden’s Israel policy are saying that they’re hopeful about how Harris will handle it. We’ll see!
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u/justvisiting7744 Caribbean Sephardic Marxist Jul 23 '24
i get that, also fr its crazy that reagan was better on this than him😭😭😭
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I hear you but I see no evidence for Kamala being better. She's a career fanatical Zionist, anti-Palestinian.
She's part of this genocide. She said that she supports Israel bombing refugee camps. She promoted the mass rape hoax.
https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1815158393159418024
She's taken $5.3 million from the Israel Lobby
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Totally. I just think that politicians by their nature are malleable and swayed by what gets them elected. Young people have made it super clear that Gaza is a big issue for them and it’s been a big factor in Biden losing support in the 18-35 crowd over the last year. I have no hope in Kamala and her people becoming ceasefire now antizionists, but I just have to imagine that this war has changed some of the calculations. But what the fuck do I know. But if the stooge-bros from Pod Save America are angry with how Biden’s camp has handled Gaza, that’s gotta be reflective of how a lot of establishment Dems in Washington feel. Unless the Obama-orbit people are marginal now. Idk. Ugh who gives a shit, I just want Israel to stop killing people.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
Good points. I feel that this is the time to exert leverage on Harris. Make her earn people's endorsement with a specific commitment to end the genocide and cut off weapons and $ to Israel. Don't endorse with nothing in return. Now's the moment for activitists. This is the moment of leverage when she's desperate to earn our votes. Regardless of their personal feelings, we have to force politicians to do the right thing.
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u/Taarguss Reconstructionist Jul 22 '24
One HUNDRED percent. Honestly if anyone’s reading this, call the VP office and let them know that your vote is conditional on ending weapons deals with Israel and advocating for an immediate ceasefire.
I’m gonna do it on my lunch break. 202-456-1111
Even if you’re ultimately still gonna vote against Trump in November, this is the shit that gets politicians to work for you.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I love this! Don't tell them they have your vote unconditionally (even if they do) because that means they'll never respect you or give you anything since the easiest thing for them is to be pro Israel and pro corporate briber (donor).
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Jul 22 '24
A large majority of humans are not intellectually sophisticated enough to do any level of moral reasoning, they use social normalcy in the place of critical thinking. That's how we get Nazis or the Gaza Genocide.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 22 '24
Biden doesn’t appear to have dementia. Don’t fall for propaganda. He speaks lucidly and at length, with great command of varied issues, and occasionally he has a brain fart. That’s not dementia. He’s always done that, and it’s also normal to have more brain farts as we get older. He also has a stutter, mostly under control, but sometimes it comes out.
It drives me crazy how people get into information silos. We need to be better consumers of information.
I take your point, that support for genocide or other war crimes should be a huge black mark on somebody’s record. That’s not how the US has ever worked. Most Americans are very distant from the impacts of our foreign policy - in information silos, even, where we don’t see a lot of the impact. We’ve always divided the world between our close allies and those we basically disregard. Biden is a product of this system, and I suspect any president will be. I don’t think anyone succeeds politically in this system without being pretty comfortable in it and with it.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
He has evidence of cognitive decline which has become so obvious that even the top shitlibs came out against Biden. Even hardcore vote blue no matter who's like Pod Save bros and the Neoliberal sub are admitting this. You're correct in saying we don't know if he has a dementia diagnosis, but there's clear cognitive decline. The vote blue no matter who's were saying he has a good team around him, so that's what you're voting for too. I find it hard to understand not seeing what millions of others are seeing? Just in the past few weeks, we had the debate, calling Zelenskyy Putin, saying he's the first black president and the first black female vice president, calling Trump his VP.
This is far beyond normal screwups which we all make. If this was simply age-related screwups, why don't other older politicians like Bernie and Pelosi make these types of outrageous speaking errors?
I never gave him a hard time about thinking he's in New Hampshire when he's in Vermont or stuff like that, because when you travel so much as a politician, I can understand that.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 23 '24
You’re right, I shouldn’t call them brain farts. He’s had several moments like this that could be early signs of a more serious decline.
He’s also been speaking live lately, enough that it’s clear he’s got a good grasp of reality and command of the issues.
The dementia accusation has been flying around for years even when he had zero big flubs, just stuttering or a little mumbling. And by flying around, I mean a misinformation campaign. It bothers me to see a bad-faith accusation like that repeated by people of good faith.
I don’t think the media frenzy is the best indicator of a real issue. If it were, they’d be all over trump for his similar errors. They just like drama, and this is the kind of drama they eat up.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
Sometimes republicans say things that are true. It doesn't mean they're not shitheads as well.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 23 '24
Sometimes they say things that aren’t, and people amplify that disinfo who should know better.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
Joe Biden having cognitive decline is disinformation? Are you trolling?
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 23 '24
You led with an accusation of dementia, which was exactly the disinformation line they’ve been pushing for years.
Now you’ve walked it back to cognitive decline. No? Or are you still claiming that he’s exhibiting dementia?
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
If shitlibs weren't in denial and lying for years, republicans wouldn't have an opening for a maximalist claim. Dementia is shorthand for cognitive decline and they were right while shitlibs denied it. Anyone on the left who brought this issue up was told they're just supporting Fox News lies and these are edited videos and you support Trump, etc. Now look at the result of all that. He has severe cognitive decline. I am not a doctor and even if I was, I cannot diagnose dementia in someone who's not my patient.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 23 '24
Dementia is not shorthand for cognitive decline. Cognitive decline can be very mild. Dementia means you can’t function normally.
He seems to be functioning normally. I don’t know how much you know about the subject, but this isn’t severe cognitive decline. It could be mild, or could be a sign of something developing that will get severe someday. If he weren’t functioning well now, they’d never put him in front of a camera for a live unscripted interview. They’d try to hide it. His team obviously thinks it’s not a serious problem.
But it could become one someday.
This disingenuous line of attack far predates the kind of misspeaking he’s done lately. And the neurological exams he’s passed as part of his annual physical.
I’ve seen a couple articles about neurologists discussing his recent verbal mixups. I’m not aware that any neurologists saw anything to discuss six months ago, or two years, or four years. Are you?
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
OK, sorry. He has evidence of cognitive decline. I shouldn't have used the word dementia. He may have Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, dementia or something else. I don't know. I know he struggles to speak properly publicly and privately. I know I wouldn't trust him to drive my family at night. I know I don't trust him to prevent WWIII. I think he should step down immediately both for his cognitive incapacity and genocide.
His team knows it's a serious problem and it's going to get worse over time. It doesn't get better.
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u/Medium_Note_9613 Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
honestly, i don't even care who gets replaced and how, inside the 2 party system. these "candidates" are faces for a genocidal elite.
i hope america breaks free from the 2 party system.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I agree entirely. I'll be voting 3rd party, probably Jill Stein from the Green Party. She's an anti-genocide Jew who supports one state with equal rights for all. She's a compassionate and intelligent woman.
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
I don't think this is a matter of how the US electorate or the US government views the Palestinian people. I think this is a reflection of how both the US government and the job of the president are multifaceted.
I'll support this by pointing out that under Reagan the United States was giving financial aid to Iraq even though the Iraq Iran war included some horrible atrocities. Similarly we have aid given to Columbia and Indonesia during the Clinton years and President Obama's government giving aid to both Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
More than that, Biden pushed the other direction.
Announced a review of arms sales to Saudi Arabia in January 2021 and suspended some arms sales related to the Yemen conflict.
Imposed visa restrictions on Saudis involved in threatening dissidents.
Withheld $130 million in military aid to Egypt in 2021 due to human rights concerns and made future Egyptian aid conditioned on specific human rights improvements.
I'm not saying he was perfect but in general he made human rights into a foreign policy factor in a way that previous govts hadn't.
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Jul 22 '24
If the rights don't extend to all humans it isn't human rights, it's just marketing.
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
Sure. I'll agree with that. I would assume that Joe Biden would agree with that as well. The difference might be in the statement that politics is the art of the possible. What the Chinese are doing to the Uyghurs is horrible but because there is absolutely nothing that any Western country can do to influence china, for the most part we put it out of mind.
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Jul 22 '24
Joe Biden could have stopped the Gaza Genocide with a few phone calls but he doesn't actually care about human rights, it's just marketing.
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm not sure I understand it enough to agree or disagree. Looking back at the past 9 months, at what point do you feel that Biden should have done what?
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
Sure. I'll agree with that. I would assume that Joe Biden would agree with that as well. The difference might be in the statement that politics is the art of the possible. What the Chinese are doing to the Uyghurs is horrible but because there is absolutely nothing that any Western country can do to influence china, for the most part we put it out of mind.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
The Yemen thing was just reframing a similar policy. The US was still providing "defensive weapons" and intelligence on targets. He gets no credit for that.
Biden resumed aid to Egypt, because they are willing to be Israel's bff. They team up to oppress the people of Gaza together.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/14/us/politics/egypt-biden-military-aid.html
A man doing genocide and blowing away babies daily isn't my definition of making human rights a factor in foreign policy. I am surprised.
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
I guess we will have to disagree about how to view Biden's foreign policy. Luckily, at this point it's a non-issue because he's not running for reelection. Who are you hoping gets the DNC nomination?
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I can't think of one person I would accept and vote for. The whole party is either overtly for this genocide or meekly for a ceasefire but also backed Biden, the one doing the genocide. Is there a single potential anti-genocide candidate? Someone willing to support BDS and one state?
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u/sar662 Jewish Jul 22 '24
I don't know but my calculus is that I'm voting against Trump because under Trump or Vance, things will only be worse than they've been.
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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
So how would you suggest Americans vote in the upcoming election, if not for the democrat candidate? No single candidate can control long term American foreign policy to the degree you are asking. Is harm reduction not a valid strategy?
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u/averagecryptid Reconstructionist Jul 23 '24
As far as I know, there is no confirmed and publicly known diagnosis going on here. I do not think he has been officially disqualified due to any diagnosis. It's on the record that he chose of his own volition to step down.
I think more people also need to realize that disability is a form of oppression that people generally see as acceptable, or acceptable "within reason." And an element of genocide is making people permanently disabled, so that they will not have access to the same social power that others do. Someone who supports genocide is not so because of illness but because they were conditioned to do so. There's more to be said about the banality of evil etc etc but surely there's someone else here (I feel like every bundist I know is an expert in Hannah Arendt) that can talk more on that.
also want to be clear I'm tired and rambling
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u/BravoFoxtrotDelta Non-Jewish Ally Jul 23 '24
Yes, it seems the arc of the moral universe is indeed quite long.
But it bends towards justice. Courage.
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 23 '24
We gotta make it bend or it won't on its own. That's the key.
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u/eIImcxc Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Put me on the cross for what I say but how come bush is still viewed as a hero, people regularly boast about how they met him and took a selfie even after the millions of deaths in the Middle East, but trump for some reason, because of some sexual allegations by some prostitute or other relatively way smaller (alleged) crimes is literally hitler for the whole system and medias.
I'm not a fan of his, I'm not even american, and I despise him because he defends isr*l like there is no tomorrow, but something tells me that his approach would be more realistic and he would be more firm toward satanhyaou. I mean he can't do worse than bden. Last estimates are saying that even if the genocide stops now, 10% of Gazaouis would be counted as dead (directly and indirectly because of it). In less than a year FFS
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
I would chalk that up to political polarization and culture war.
As well as the memory-holing of the genocidal war against Iraq, which was many years in the making prior to the invasion.
Americans just forget their own government's crimes constantly.
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u/eIImcxc Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
I agree with you but it was never about memory. During the "war", the american media and general population just didn't care. Even when it was revealed that the invasion was based on lies there was not much turbulence. The contrast is too striking compared to what we can witness with Trump to not question oneself how dangerous he can be to the establishment.
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u/Snoo53248 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 22 '24
i mean our whole governmental system is built on genocide so not surprising from a historical standpoint but from a human moral standpoint, i absolutely agree. also not quite sure how the “if only hitler was disabled, we could’ve gotten rid of him” argument holds up lol