r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Jul 10 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison Jul 10 '24

how do jews feel about israel claiming to be the voice of jews while being a puppet of the us in foreign affairs?

(i am half mayan and israel worked with guatemala at the behest of the us to help with a coup and enact a genocide on my people.)

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24

American Jew here

I feel that for decades we’ve used Israel as a cudgel to do dirty work overseas that we don’t want to besmirch our own reputation with. It’s had the result of isolating Israel even further than just the treatment of Palestinians has. But with decades of this conditioning, Israel now essentially is immune to calls that it is doing something wrong, as it has been Pavloved into being rewarded by mostly conservative American administrations.

Israel certainly isn’t my voice. I have my own government for that. And many Jews outside America are insular and even the reform movement members outside the US want patrilineal Jews to convert, which I’m vehemently against.

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 10 '24

What does your last sentence mean? BTW tons of reform movements outside the US recognize patrilineal descent.

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24

I’ve been told on other subs that ostensibly reform shuls in Europe and Israel tend to only accept patrilineal Jews via a (usually sped up) conversion. I think that sort of mentality is counterproductive to the reform movement itself. If I’m wrong then that’s of course a good thing.

The word choice of insular has to do with a wider proportion of non-American Jews being Orthodox or other more restrictive lines of Judaism and having more strict rules about intermarriage, and just tending to be less inclined to partake in secular life with gentiles.

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 11 '24 edited Jul 11 '24

I think that's probably true. Generally in my country, and I think pretty broadly in reform, jewish background is the deciding factor in whether one needs to convert, regardless of parentage. Even if both of your parents are jewish, you may need to go through a conversion (or not a conversion, but a similarly structured class) to join a shul if you were not raised jewish and have no knowledge of judaism. Many patrilineal jews are not raised jewish (need to convert), many are (don't need to convert). What's the problem with this mentality? It's practical.

You say this like there aren't orthodox jews in the US. There's plenty, some of the most intensely ultra-orthodox sects in the world are based in the US. I don't understand what your criticisms of orthodox and reform practices have to do with this topic, why do you bring this up?

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 11 '24

I brought up the sectional differences because if Israel is claiming to represent me but wouldn’t allow me to get married there as Jew then it’s not very representative lol.

The rabbinate of Israel has grown in influence over the last decade and they have an outsized say in secular affairs, and as an Orthodox body they have some rules that leave secular Jews and patrilineal Jews in the cold. And when the government uses a theological determination to create laws or regulations, that’s inherently pretty fucked up imo. Maybe thats just my Americanness coming through - the First Amendment was one of the greatest advances in human rights ever (on paper) at its time. But yeah I don’t think it makes sense for my ethnic background to be deniable by some outdated theology. I don’t care about the religious side of things as I’m irreligious and it’s functionally all “be nice to people, duh” and the rest is pointless window dressing. I do care about ‘tribal’ membership as a Jew, though, as it is a key facet of my identity. To have anyone deny that is pretty messed up.

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 13 '24

Dude I'm having a tough time following your point from one comment to the next. Are you trolling? You vehemently disagree with reform conversion standards and orthodox lifestyle choices because of the legislative power of the chief rabbinate of israel? Wtf are you talking about? Who is denying your ethnic background? None of these things are related to each other and it seems like you just wanna take shots at people's religious practices that have nothing to do with israel.

"I don’t care about the religious side of things as I’m irreligious and it’s functionally all “be nice to people, duh” and the rest is pointless window dressing."

Pretty insulting, this is like a weirdly demeaning version of paraphrasing hillel. You're the only one in this thread denying people's identities man.

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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison Jul 10 '24

i agree with what you, but i dont know what a patrilineal jew is

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 11 '24

Someone with a father who was a Jew but not a mother who is one. Most modern versions of Judaism see Jewishness as a matrilineal trait. Reform doesn’t follow this because it’s seen as a hindrance more than a help to the community. The historic enforcement of it was dubious as well (ancient Israelites, modern Samaritans, and the founder population for Ashkenazim all practiced patrilineal descent.)

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u/FurstRoyalty-Ties Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 11 '24

Are there any particular reasons that matrilineal descendancy was chosen in mainstream sects for defining someone as a Jew compared to patriliniean descendancy?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

"Was chosen"? We don't know exactly when the halacha shifted, but it was sometime in the five hundred years between the return of the Babylonian Exiles under Ezra and the destruction of the Second Temple.

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u/FurstRoyalty-Ties Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 11 '24

Thank you for the response. What about the reason(s) for the change itself, is that known ? Or has it been lost to time ?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

To my (limited) knowledge, a reason isn't passed down in the mesora. Much of the pre-Mishnaic mesora that was not preserved by the tannaim has been lost to us.

We can reasonably suppose that the shift from patrilineage to matrilineage occurred for reasons similar to the shift from dowries to bride-prices (of which the wedding ring in Judaism is the vestigial remnant), and this would be the result of structural changes to the way agriculture (and hence, all of social reproduction) was organized.

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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Jul 11 '24

Someone whose father or paternal ancestors are Jewish but their mother is not

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u/jukeboxgasoline Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 11 '24

Judaism is a matrilineal religion, meaning that traditionally a child is Jewish if their mother is Jewish. Traditionally, if your father is Jewish but your mother is not, you are not Jewish. Depending on what sect of Judaism someone belongs to, their personal beliefs, and possibly some other factors, they may or may not consider people with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother ― a patrilineal Jew ― to be Jewish.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

I think we need to be clear about something: we are talking about how halachic obligation to the mitzvot from birth is conveyed passively. It follows from the mother and has since before the last time the Sanhedrin assembled. After birth the obligation must be taken on actively. That can be done by the parents before the child reaches the age of mitzvot, but one who has reached the age of mitzvot must do it him or herself.

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u/jukeboxgasoline Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 11 '24

thanks for that! I was raised Conservative but don’t really practice on my own so I’m not too well versed in details like that

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u/AnarchoHystericism Reform Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Is there a statement in particular you are thinking of? To be honest, i see others express this sentiment far more than the israeli government, they mostly claim to represent their own citizens. Of course Israel is not the voice of jews, I pay no mind to such a claim.

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u/ohmysomeonehere Antizionist Jew Jul 10 '24

there is nothing Jewish about the state of Israel by any measure.

there is nothing Jewish about zionist ideology by any measure.

the state of israel has no more right to claim to be the "voice of jews" as the catholic pope does.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

Maybe even less so, because what the Datiim practice isn't Judaism, it's a Judaically-inflected neo-Paganism.

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u/ohmysomeonehere Antizionist Jew Jul 11 '24

who do you mean when you say "Datiim"? mizrachi? "dosim"?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

The Dati Leumi, most especially but not exclusively the religious settlers.