r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Jul 10 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison Jul 10 '24

how do jews feel about israel claiming to be the voice of jews while being a puppet of the us in foreign affairs?

(i am half mayan and israel worked with guatemala at the behest of the us to help with a coup and enact a genocide on my people.)

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24

American Jew here

I feel that for decades we’ve used Israel as a cudgel to do dirty work overseas that we don’t want to besmirch our own reputation with. It’s had the result of isolating Israel even further than just the treatment of Palestinians has. But with decades of this conditioning, Israel now essentially is immune to calls that it is doing something wrong, as it has been Pavloved into being rewarded by mostly conservative American administrations.

Israel certainly isn’t my voice. I have my own government for that. And many Jews outside America are insular and even the reform movement members outside the US want patrilineal Jews to convert, which I’m vehemently against.

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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison Jul 10 '24

i agree with what you, but i dont know what a patrilineal jew is

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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Post-Zionist Jul 11 '24

Someone with a father who was a Jew but not a mother who is one. Most modern versions of Judaism see Jewishness as a matrilineal trait. Reform doesn’t follow this because it’s seen as a hindrance more than a help to the community. The historic enforcement of it was dubious as well (ancient Israelites, modern Samaritans, and the founder population for Ashkenazim all practiced patrilineal descent.)

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u/FurstRoyalty-Ties Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 11 '24

Are there any particular reasons that matrilineal descendancy was chosen in mainstream sects for defining someone as a Jew compared to patriliniean descendancy?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

"Was chosen"? We don't know exactly when the halacha shifted, but it was sometime in the five hundred years between the return of the Babylonian Exiles under Ezra and the destruction of the Second Temple.

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u/FurstRoyalty-Ties Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 11 '24

Thank you for the response. What about the reason(s) for the change itself, is that known ? Or has it been lost to time ?

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

To my (limited) knowledge, a reason isn't passed down in the mesora. Much of the pre-Mishnaic mesora that was not preserved by the tannaim has been lost to us.

We can reasonably suppose that the shift from patrilineage to matrilineage occurred for reasons similar to the shift from dowries to bride-prices (of which the wedding ring in Judaism is the vestigial remnant), and this would be the result of structural changes to the way agriculture (and hence, all of social reproduction) was organized.

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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Jul 11 '24

Someone whose father or paternal ancestors are Jewish but their mother is not

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u/jukeboxgasoline Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 11 '24

Judaism is a matrilineal religion, meaning that traditionally a child is Jewish if their mother is Jewish. Traditionally, if your father is Jewish but your mother is not, you are not Jewish. Depending on what sect of Judaism someone belongs to, their personal beliefs, and possibly some other factors, they may or may not consider people with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother ― a patrilineal Jew ― to be Jewish.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Jul 11 '24

I think we need to be clear about something: we are talking about how halachic obligation to the mitzvot from birth is conveyed passively. It follows from the mother and has since before the last time the Sanhedrin assembled. After birth the obligation must be taken on actively. That can be done by the parents before the child reaches the age of mitzvot, but one who has reached the age of mitzvot must do it him or herself.

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u/jukeboxgasoline Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 11 '24

thanks for that! I was raised Conservative but don’t really practice on my own so I’m not too well versed in details like that