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u/NarcRuffalo 1d ago
It also seems like there are so many things PIs are expected to do outside of their job of actually being a PI (getting grants and mentoring trainees).
It felt like my PI was so busy and always being asked to do more. Constantly being asked to write review articles and obviously review papers for journals, but then also she became an editor of a journal or something? Then all the committees at the school and for different scientific organizations/societies and consortiums. And we were always getting undergrads to mentor when it felt like higher profile PIs would refuse to accept undergrads because it was a waste of time. So it just put even more burden on us/our lab.
Most of these things are all important for the scientific community to thrive, but I guess the biggest problem is there isn’t enough money to go around to support it. So PIs are basically doing a bunch of work for free and then have to squeeze in the job they’re actually paid to do when they can
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u/La3Rat 1d ago
Actually a lot of this stuff is required by the institution once you have tenure. So much of your effort must be aimed at institutional efforts, service, and engagement. Typically it’s 20%. It may not be directly paying their salary with compensation for the time spent but it’s required to maintain employment.
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
That's me!
But FR though they always were absent. People just don't understand how busy we actually are. I count my minutes like someone on a diet counts calories. Holiday are great, it's like free minutes to play catch-up. We often have to work even on holiday (I needed to work for 6 hours yesterday, on Christmas).
All we expect is a little bit of independence and initiative. And you should expect us to provide the freedom and structure to learn and work independently. In science independence and initiative are the two most important soft skills.
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u/epigenie_986 1d ago
Mentoring and training are also important skills that many PIs lack. I feel empathy for the students who go into a PhD program expecting that, and getting absentee mentors instead. And I’ve worked with plenty of PRESENT and HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL PIs. But I also tell students to look into potential PIs the same you would a partner you’d date - find the right fit for you.
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
Agreed. It is a two way street between the PI and students, but ultimately it's important to have a good fit. Some people do better under an absent PI, others need more hands on. With respect to this meme though I have noticed that most people come into science not understanding how it actually works.
Even more hands on PIs like myself can't be in the lab holding their hand for every single experiment like some people expect. If we needed to be there for everything, then it wouldn't really be worth it to hire anyone for anything if we can do it ourselves better and faster.
Ultimately mentoring is actually extremely hard to do, I agree that most PIs don't have enough training. But there is also a reality to the expectations with lab work and being independent that seems disconnected at first. The PI should definitely be there to mentor and help, and provide a framework for people to learn, but the PI won't always have time to be hands on with everyone.
I personally expect graduate students to be terrible at independence when they start, that's why I hand hold them through the first major experiment and publication, then I expect them to start being independent on their own dissertation work. Undergrads I straight up tell that my involvement with them is minimal and others in the lab are working on their mentoring skills, so a big part of how they help is by helping give grad students and post docs opportunities to learn to teach, and warn of possible down times. Undergrads very rarely stick around long enough to be independent and take too much time for me to teach. Usually undergrads are a major net negative to productivity but it's so important for their careers, which makes it worth it to take them.
I am always a bit more hands on with techs though because they aren't expected to have their own projects so I don't want them to struggle as much as grad students should (it's part of the learning process).
But overall usually the more senior a PI, the more disconnected they will be. Hopefully they have senior lab staff around to take the burden of teaching. If they don't, then that is a major warning sign to avoid. Doesn't matter how it happens, through a PI or other lab members, teaching and mentoring structure should be present. But I guess my argument is that it doesn't need to fall entirely on the PI, because it can't.
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u/tellmeitsagift 1d ago
Interesting thoughts! I find it very interesting when PIs chat on here about stuff. Just wanted to throw it in there that my PI is 72, been at the university for 35 or so years, and quite hands on. But he will also leave on vacations for weeks.
We’re pretty independent all of us, doing the majority of our experiments without him involved at all, but he’s taught us all so much and he’s almost always available for a helpful chat
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u/Mental_Lemon3565 1d ago edited 1d ago
This seems like one of those things that everyone in academics believes because the system sort of requires it and runs on it, not as much because it's true in the end. In my brief time in the Academic world, I've heard PIs say things to the effect of "that's how it was when I was in school" or "that's how my advisor was" to justify something that strikes me as shitty more times than I'd like to have heard.
So a student lacking a certain level of independence, and I'll say self-confidence rather than initiative, will just not make it through their program if their PI, who is supposed to be a mentor, isn't around to guide them through to a sufficient extent, but they might have been able to become a great scientist.
I'm watching my gf go through her Masters. She's kicking ass, totally self-motivated and independent, but her advisor is never around, doesn't help her when she asks for help or advice. He seems to want her to do everything herself, including designing somewhat novel experiments that she doesn't have experience with and can only learn so much from literature or intuition. It takes wisdom and guidance that she isn't getting and it's very frustrating for her.
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
Yes.
I really hate to side with the PI on that one, but your GF absolutely should design those experiments on her own and repeat through trial and error. Would it be nice if the PI was around for a conversation or two. Absolutely. But that kind of thing is something students absolutely should be learning to do on their own! It just sucks and is hard in the process because you feel isolated and alone.
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u/scientific_Mormegil 1d ago
Unfortunately, I expected a bit more of my PI. I didnt come into the PhD as a finished product who could initiate a research project and work on it independently. In my opinion PIs who are absent are ignoring their mentoring responsibilities and stunting the development of their students.
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, it depends on what level of absence you are talking about. For my PhD I talked to my advisor maybe 7 times in 5 years. Once each paper is submitted (3), once for my interview, once for my defense, once because he took us to Pizza, and I'm sure there was another time I can't remember (maybe when I fucked up and got us in trouble with the DEA?).
But the lab had 16 graduate students, 2 scientists, and an RAP all within the infrastructure. The hands off approach worked for some, not well for others, but it self selects for those who can be independent.
It worked for me, but I did see some very talented individuals burn out from the lack of guidance who could have been excellent scientists if given a little bit of hand holding early on. Everyone is unique.
The problem becomes when there is a mismatch of expectations. And also that sometimes absence IS mentoring, at some point learning to be independent and take initiative needs to be learned and it's arguably THE most important part of being a scientist. By a long shot. But there is a difference between working towards independence and being expected to be independent right away.
Complaining about the lack of guidance is completely normal. I bitched about it too. But now that I'm on the other side its easy to understand both perspectives. Mentoring is an art for sure, and part of that process will be to make students struggle, but there should be some oversight to be able to course correct when needed, rather than be sink or swim which I do see too much of. Hand holding through an entire dissertation is also bad.
Whatever your circumstances are, try to see the lack of guidance as the true test to be overcome. If you will be successful, one way or another, you need to be independent, and that will either happen sooner or later, may as well make it sooner.
My post doc PI said it well.. the students who take the most of your time usually give the least amount back, students who take the least tend to give the most. Investing a bit more time into the less demanding pays out far more than investing a ton of time on those who need more. As a PI where time is limited, how would you invest your time? It's kinda super fucked up, but it tends to be true. It's a position I am currently in as well, one of my highschool students was taking all of my time and giving almost nothing back in return, I couldn't keep up, so I backed down because it was necessary for me to keep up with other responsibilities. I feel bad about it, but at this point he is coming in on his own accord, and is working quite nicely towards independence. There is a nature to these relationships that is hard to see as a student but as a PI it's very apparent. It's honestly a problem that can't really be overcome. My solution is to just give everyone the same amount of time, and you take from it what you can. But I can't give days of time to the most needy people who simply aren't getting it. That is a foolish investment.
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u/parade1070 Neuro Grad 1d ago
There's a lot I agree with here, but I'm mostly just here to tell you your PhD PI sucked and did your peers dirty. The PhD is just as much if not more about learning over productivity. If your PI didn't want to train people, they should have run a private lab.
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
He was a busy man. Worked 80+ hours a week between his academic lab and private lab he ran in another city, being a president for a research foundation, and the director for the department.
True, he didn't teach in the lab, but I still learned a heck of a lot more doing things through trial and failure than I would have being told exactly what to do. Yes I struggled way more than necessary, but I came out the back end truly, and I mean truly, understanding techniques and the animal model I started.
I won't say he sucked. He was an outstanding man and I admire his intensity to truly help people and bring science from bench to bedside. But the lack of mentor structure was, at many times, very difficult to overcome. The absence wasn't necessarily key to success, but it did test and develop independence. Those who succeeded are thriving in their careers. Those that didn't usually left research all together. I loved the freedom from his absence so much that I wanted to find a post doc advisor that would provide the same structure. What I got was something in between. At times my productivity was thwarted by his oversight, at other times his guidance helped me become a better scientist. (More efficient, more careful, different way of thinking and strategizing, etc). I see the value in all different mentoring styles, it is just important for the student and mentor to match. Unfortunately most people don't know what they need or how to ask until it's too late. There were people in my PhD lab that I think would be amazing scientists if they just had that initial hand holding to get them started. But I don't really blame my PI at the same time.
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u/WorkLifeScience 1d ago
I had a (very) senior high profile PI who was involved in all possible committees, grant boards, etc. and he was still at work almost every day from ca 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. Did he know what we're doing in the lab? Nope. But he was there and his door was open literally and figuratively speaking. I appreciated that a lot (but also the freedom he gave us).
So what has changed? Are there more obligations now for younger PIs? More meetings, since everything is online? More teaching?
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u/TheTopNacho 1d ago
More meetings and more pressure for grants. But otherwise us young PIs have far, far less than senior PIs so we generally do have more time for lab management
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u/Neurula94 1d ago
Also the case when you finish your PhD. I sent my PhD PI a draft of my PhD paper beginning of July and we still havent submitted it because they regularly go 2-3 months of not contacting me
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u/anirudhsky 23h ago
That's how it was for me. My pi was nice but a busy man. He was never there to discuss my thesis. Somehow I could publish and move forward. ,8 years... And now no one gives a rat's @$$ about it. Lol
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u/La3Rat 1d ago
Mostly a change in how PI's run labs post COVID. The reality is that PI's have an absolute ton of meetings and obligations. We used to run from meeting to meeting all day with little breaks between. Now everything is zoom and those little breaks between meetings are gone. Everything is back to back. On days where I have back to back to back zoom meetings, I work from home.