But FR though they always were absent. People just don't understand how busy we actually are. I count my minutes like someone on a diet counts calories. Holiday are great, it's like free minutes to play catch-up. We often have to work even on holiday (I needed to work for 6 hours yesterday, on Christmas).
All we expect is a little bit of independence and initiative. And you should expect us to provide the freedom and structure to learn and work independently. In science independence and initiative are the two most important soft skills.
Mentoring and training are also important skills that many PIs lack. I feel empathy for the students who go into a PhD program expecting that, and getting absentee mentors instead. And I’ve worked with plenty of PRESENT and HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL PIs. But I also tell students to look into potential PIs the same you would a partner you’d date - find the right fit for you.
Agreed. It is a two way street between the PI and students, but ultimately it's important to have a good fit. Some people do better under an absent PI, others need more hands on. With respect to this meme though I have noticed that most people come into science not understanding how it actually works.
Even more hands on PIs like myself can't be in the lab holding their hand for every single experiment like some people expect. If we needed to be there for everything, then it wouldn't really be worth it to hire anyone for anything if we can do it ourselves better and faster.
Ultimately mentoring is actually extremely hard to do, I agree that most PIs don't have enough training. But there is also a reality to the expectations with lab work and being independent that seems disconnected at first. The PI should definitely be there to mentor and help, and provide a framework for people to learn, but the PI won't always have time to be hands on with everyone.
I personally expect graduate students to be terrible at independence when they start, that's why I hand hold them through the first major experiment and publication, then I expect them to start being independent on their own dissertation work. Undergrads I straight up tell that my involvement with them is minimal and others in the lab are working on their mentoring skills, so a big part of how they help is by helping give grad students and post docs opportunities to learn to teach, and warn of possible down times. Undergrads very rarely stick around long enough to be independent and take too much time for me to teach. Usually undergrads are a major net negative to productivity but it's so important for their careers, which makes it worth it to take them.
I am always a bit more hands on with techs though because they aren't expected to have their own projects so I don't want them to struggle as much as grad students should (it's part of the learning process).
But overall usually the more senior a PI, the more disconnected they will be. Hopefully they have senior lab staff around to take the burden of teaching. If they don't, then that is a major warning sign to avoid. Doesn't matter how it happens, through a PI or other lab members, teaching and mentoring structure should be present. But I guess my argument is that it doesn't need to fall entirely on the PI, because it can't.
Interesting thoughts! I find it very interesting when PIs chat on here about stuff. Just wanted to throw it in there that my PI is 72, been at the university for 35 or so years, and quite hands on. But he will also leave on vacations for weeks.
We’re pretty independent all of us, doing the majority of our experiments without him involved at all, but he’s taught us all so much and he’s almost always available for a helpful chat
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u/TheTopNacho 2d ago
That's me!
But FR though they always were absent. People just don't understand how busy we actually are. I count my minutes like someone on a diet counts calories. Holiday are great, it's like free minutes to play catch-up. We often have to work even on holiday (I needed to work for 6 hours yesterday, on Christmas).
All we expect is a little bit of independence and initiative. And you should expect us to provide the freedom and structure to learn and work independently. In science independence and initiative are the two most important soft skills.