But FR though they always were absent. People just don't understand how busy we actually are. I count my minutes like someone on a diet counts calories. Holiday are great, it's like free minutes to play catch-up. We often have to work even on holiday (I needed to work for 6 hours yesterday, on Christmas).
All we expect is a little bit of independence and initiative. And you should expect us to provide the freedom and structure to learn and work independently. In science independence and initiative are the two most important soft skills.
Unfortunately, I expected a bit more of my PI. I didnt come into the PhD as a finished product who could initiate a research project and work on it independently.
In my opinion PIs who are absent are ignoring their mentoring responsibilities and stunting the development of their students.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, it depends on what level of absence you are talking about. For my PhD I talked to my advisor maybe 7 times in 5 years. Once each paper is submitted (3), once for my interview, once for my defense, once because he took us to Pizza, and I'm sure there was another time I can't remember (maybe when I fucked up and got us in trouble with the DEA?).
But the lab had 16 graduate students, 2 scientists, and an RAP all within the infrastructure. The hands off approach worked for some, not well for others, but it self selects for those who can be independent.
It worked for me, but I did see some very talented individuals burn out from the lack of guidance who could have been excellent scientists if given a little bit of hand holding early on. Everyone is unique.
The problem becomes when there is a mismatch of expectations. And also that sometimes absence IS mentoring, at some point learning to be independent and take initiative needs to be learned and it's arguably THE most important part of being a scientist. By a long shot. But there is a difference between working towards independence and being expected to be independent right away.
Complaining about the lack of guidance is completely normal. I bitched about it too. But now that I'm on the other side its easy to understand both perspectives. Mentoring is an art for sure, and part of that process will be to make students struggle, but there should be some oversight to be able to course correct when needed, rather than be sink or swim which I do see too much of. Hand holding through an entire dissertation is also bad.
Whatever your circumstances are, try to see the lack of guidance as the true test to be overcome. If you will be successful, one way or another, you need to be independent, and that will either happen sooner or later, may as well make it sooner.
My post doc PI said it well.. the students who take the most of your time usually give the least amount back, students who take the least tend to give the most. Investing a bit more time into the less demanding pays out far more than investing a ton of time on those who need more. As a PI where time is limited, how would you invest your time? It's kinda super fucked up, but it tends to be true. It's a position I am currently in as well, one of my highschool students was taking all of my time and giving almost nothing back in return, I couldn't keep up, so I backed down because it was necessary for me to keep up with other responsibilities. I feel bad about it, but at this point he is coming in on his own accord, and is working quite nicely towards independence. There is a nature to these relationships that is hard to see as a student but as a PI it's very apparent. It's honestly a problem that can't really be overcome. My solution is to just give everyone the same amount of time, and you take from it what you can. But I can't give days of time to the most needy people who simply aren't getting it. That is a foolish investment.
There's a lot I agree with here, but I'm mostly just here to tell you your PhD PI sucked and did your peers dirty. The PhD is just as much if not more about learning over productivity. If your PI didn't want to train people, they should have run a private lab.
He was a busy man. Worked 80+ hours a week between his academic lab and private lab he ran in another city, being a president for a research foundation, and the director for the department.
True, he didn't teach in the lab, but I still learned a heck of a lot more doing things through trial and failure than I would have being told exactly what to do. Yes I struggled way more than necessary, but I came out the back end truly, and I mean truly, understanding techniques and the animal model I started.
I won't say he sucked. He was an outstanding man and I admire his intensity to truly help people and bring science from bench to bedside. But the lack of mentor structure was, at many times, very difficult to overcome. The absence wasn't necessarily key to success, but it did test and develop independence. Those who succeeded are thriving in their careers. Those that didn't usually left research all together. I loved the freedom from his absence so much that I wanted to find a post doc advisor that would provide the same structure. What I got was something in between. At times my productivity was thwarted by his oversight, at other times his guidance helped me become a better scientist. (More efficient, more careful, different way of thinking and strategizing, etc). I see the value in all different mentoring styles, it is just important for the student and mentor to match. Unfortunately most people don't know what they need or how to ask until it's too late. There were people in my PhD lab that I think would be amazing scientists if they just had that initial hand holding to get them started. But I don't really blame my PI at the same time.
88
u/TheTopNacho 2d ago
That's me!
But FR though they always were absent. People just don't understand how busy we actually are. I count my minutes like someone on a diet counts calories. Holiday are great, it's like free minutes to play catch-up. We often have to work even on holiday (I needed to work for 6 hours yesterday, on Christmas).
All we expect is a little bit of independence and initiative. And you should expect us to provide the freedom and structure to learn and work independently. In science independence and initiative are the two most important soft skills.