r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Nov 06 '24
AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday
It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.
Please remember to pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate! Thanks!
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u/Sad-Anybody3011 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
This is probably a dumb question, but here goes. Among the common symbols of solidarity with the Palestinian people (keffieh, Palestinian flag, watermelon, olive tree etc) are some less likely to be misread as antisemitic? I’m well aware that some people will read any sign of sympathy for the Palestinian people as inherently antisemitic; still, in this time of rising antisemitism, I wouldn’t want to unwittingly use something that is more frequently used as or associated with antisemitic dog whistles. Asking as a non-Jewish person.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Nov 08 '24
I don't think any common ones could, in good faith, be read as antisemitic.
Associating nazi imagery with Israel is emotionally jarring for a lot of people, even those who don't have problems with the other symbols (but there are also good arguments that they might be appropriate, so I am not going to make a judgment on that)
Whenever using the imagery of a Star of David if it's not clearly part of the Israeli flag, I would be very careful. A crossed out star of David, or Star of David in the trash bin, is probably crossing a line (I would give the benefit of the doubt, but not everyone would)
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Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I remember right after 10.7, there was a pro-Palestinian protest in Poland (I think Warsaw), and there was a young Norwegian woman holding up a sign with a Star of David in a trash can. At the moment, it’s not really a point of focus, because it’s the existence of the Palestinians that is at risk. And this is still true. However, it is still a horrendous display that needs to be called out….
…Those of you who are non-Jewish native Europeans need to understand that your Christian ancestors and your European Christian society is ultimately responsible for the situation in Palestine. You slaughtered and oppressed the Jews of Europe for over 1,000 years and genocided them on multiple occasions. You ethnically cleansed them on countless occasions, you banned them from your lands all the way from Britain to Scandinavia to Germany to Italy to Hungary to Poland to Russia.
Zionism is the result of all this hate and bigotry. What a surprise, hatred and ethno-religious nationalism created an ideology based on bigotry and ethno-religious nationalism… And you need to consider that the Palestinians have suffered for the crimes your ancestors committed. If you actually care about liberating Palestine, you need to think about the reparations and property in your own country you will be giving to the descendants of European Jews. Everything taken from the Palestinians is ultimately what you owed the Ashkenazi Jews in the first place.
And I’m sorry if this makes you feel like you’re being attacked for something you didn’t do. But this is the reality of the situation. Your ancestors are responsible for some of the greatest crimes and horrors ever inflicted upon another group of humans. And your societies got away with never having to suffer for any of this. And no, the fact that you all spend a lot of time in school learning about the Holocaust doesn’t count. You never had to sacrifice anything material
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Nov 08 '24
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Nov 06 '24
Is anyone here tired of the jewish world being majority zionist of some kind? On tumblr there was a really popular post which listed ways gentiles can be good jewish allies, and one of the requirements is "don't use zionist like a dirty word, its no worse than feminism". And the most popular jumblr fandom bloggers I know of are liberal zionists.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
For your sanity, don’t go on Jumblr
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
Do you have any bad experiences there?
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
Enough bad experiences and inane arguments that lead to nowhere for me to realize that it is not healthy for me as a non jewish person to take anything said there seriously. Additionally, it is very much an echo chamber of what I think are American Jews/Israelis who are knee deep into Jewish institutions and community that is unfortunately extremely zionist while also refusing to acknowledge any form of privilege they have on the basis of the “KKK and the Neo-Nazis don’t see us as white, so you’re antisemitic for saying we benefit from white privilege”
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u/Adorable_Victory1789 Palestinian Nov 06 '24
1) Can you be a practicing Jew without knowing/praying in Hebrew?
2) How do you deal with Zionist family members?
3) What is the thing you admire about Judaism?
4) Is there an emphasis on modesty in Judaism?
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Nov 06 '24
1) Can you be a practicing Jew without knowing/praying in Hebrew?
Without understanding Hebrew? Definitely. I'd say most non-Israeli non-orthodox Jews don't actually understand much Hebrew.
Praying in is harder. Jewish prayers are all in Hebrew (or Aramaic) so you're always going to have some in there. I know some more secular/reform styles mix in English with their Hebrew to help accommodate the less Hebrew-exposed but there's near always going to be something there.
There are a lot of siddurs/Jewish prayer books that include translations and pronunciation guides out there for those that can't read Hebrew characters though.
2) How do you deal with Zionist family members?
I personally don't engage with them much on their Zionism. Some I cut out of my life entirely. Most of mine are from older generations, with a much fresher feeling of generational trauma from the Holocaust, which means that any debate on this topic reduces their possibility for rationality and empathy.
3) What is the thing you admire about Judaism?
The way we survive. Even when facing a racism so old it predates the concept of race, we've persisted. And, until Zionism perverted it, our strategy to do so was beautiful and unique. We used to base our entire community over long range distance, having one community survive by being welcomed by another somewhere else. When Europe was bad, the ones already in the Middle East helped us get there; when the Middle East was bad, the European Jews help in turn. We used to survive by being everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
4) Is there an emphasis on modesty in Judaism?
Orthodox Judaism definitely does. You'll see similar rules around dress/appearance in those communities to ones you'd see in some traditional Muslim branches, including rules around women covering their hair and certain body parts, or men being required to dress in a certain level of non-casualness (this category of law is called "Tzniut/Tznius").
Judaism as a whole does emphasize "keeping to ourselves" on a community level too, which in and of itself is also a kind of "modesty".
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Nov 06 '24
Can you be a practicing Jew without knowing/praying in Hebrew?
While there is no universally accepted definition of what practicing Judaism means, no Jewish groups believe there is a requirement to know Hebrew in order to practice Judaism. The traditional liturgy is in Hebrew (with some Aramaic sprinkled in), but many congregations also add communal prayers in their local languages. And most Jews who know how to read and speak Hebrew for religious purposes don't always understand it well, often only as much as needed for religious purposes. Jewish prayer books are translated into many languages, and there are also transliterated prayer books so that one can say the prayers in Hebrew without knowing how to read Hebrew.
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Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
Yes you can, altho you really do need to learn Hebrew if you desire to live your life as an observant Jew. I’d say it’s not possible without doing so.
It’s very very difficult 😔Especially for observant Jews like myself who really value family and community. I’m lucky that nearly all my family still live in Zionist occupied Palestine, and I don’t have to deal with them on a daily basis, but it still sucks. Especially because my anti-Zionism and pro-Palestinian liberation views come from my family values and my Jewish faith. There are few anti-Zionist observant Jews like myself, there are very few Arab Jewish anti-Zionists like myself, and there are very very few Jews with indigenous Palestinian ancestry like myself let alone also anti-Zionist… So it’s really lonely and Palestinians and Arabs are the few I’ve been able to consider good friends and family in this time. You guys have taken me in as a sibling, and I will forever stand firm and unflinching for Palestinian liberation because of it.
I could go on forever about this. Not even sure when to start. But one thing I really love about Judaism, is that we are encouraged to question and debate even our most sacred ideals. We are commanded to battle and argue over everything and not just accept something because it was written in scripture. We are on a lifelong journey of questioning and searching, and so long as we hold true to the mitzvot and practice the oral law, this path we are on is a righteous one that can only lead to more beauty and grace coming down to earth.
Absolutely, but depends on what kind of Judaism you follow. In many cases, it’s pretty similar to Islam.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally Nov 06 '24
How antisemitic is it, that upon learning someone is a Jew, my immediate thought is "they propbably support Israel"?
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24
It's fair and most likely correct, but you shouldn't treat them as if they support Israel unless you know for certain that they do.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
I would probably just try to completely avoid the topic.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24
I don't think there's a problem in asking their stance.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
Me neither, at least not in principle. I'll try to avoid it to still be able to think they're good people. Weird and neurotic, I know.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Nov 08 '24
If it has nothing to do with anything, and you are just bringing it up because they are Jewish, yeah, that is definitely a problem.
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Nov 08 '24
Hah us anti-Zionist Jews have the same thought 😂. But it’s better to criticize after they express their opinions, not before
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Nov 07 '24
Its definitely antisemitic, even if its not that bad a microaggression. You should probably work on that.
No people-group is a monolith. It is just like assuming any American you meet supports Trump, any Mainland Chinese person supports all the actions of the CCP, or any Russian person supports Putin.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
I know all that obviously. I mean I'm on this sub after all and many of my personal heroes are Jewish people (most of whom had a very critical relationship with Israel). But I'm also German and a bit brainwashed in that regard. Generally I'd say German jewry is disproportianally supportive of Israel when compared to Jews in other countries, the only real exception being Israeli expats.
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24
lol I’m a Jew and I think this, because it’s overwhelmingly likely they do and I’m almost always right
People saying ‘no group is a monolith’, yeah they’re not but people aren’t stupid they can see the vast majority of Jews and Jewish political and religious orgs support Israel. It’s not like ISIS where Muslims and their institutions were bending over backwards to condemn them, and most people fighting them and getting killed by them were also Muslim.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
For me it’s the sheer volume and unanimity of the institutions, religious leaders, public figures and social media accounts of loud and proud Jews who are fiercely zionist and pro genocide that makes me stop and think twice. It’s awful because I hate generalizing and especially hate talking about people in an essentialist way, but all of that makes it hard for me to not generalize
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist Nov 08 '24
Yeah exactly, it’s not like assuming all Americans support Trump because you know about 50% of them don’t. That’s demonstrably not true about Jews and Israel, and it’s political gaslighting to pretend otherwise
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Nov 07 '24
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Nov 07 '24
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Nov 06 '24
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u/OrbitingTheMoon34 Anti-Zionist Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
On what level are various groups of Jews aware of the similarities between the behavior of the Third Reich and the State of Israel? Some of the obvious similarities are: ethnic concentration camps, the quest for acquisition of land to live, mass demonization of a hated ethnicity, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, a government of fascists.
Is a supporter of Likkud aware of the similarity? Do the embrace it or suppress it?
How does a left wing Jew integrate the similarity of the Nazi Reich and the State of the Homeland of the Jew?
Finally, to what extent are Jews of all political persuasions aware that the behavior of Israeli Jews celebrating and murdering in Palestine overlaps the detestable behavior of Jews depicted in Jud Suss?
How do Jews expect non Jews to react when they see the similarities? I assume they expect us to feel guilty at noticing. What happens when we do not?
EDIT: I reread this and I understand how it can be read to be deeply anti-semitic. I don't like the fact that it is true and anti-semitic at the same time. A different way of stating this is "When is the Israeli citizenry going to understand that their nation state and people are perceived by others as acting with the same selfish evil that they have long been perceived as having"?
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Nov 06 '24
The wording of this question reads very much like the talking points of the alt-right antisemitic antizionist that this movement tries to reject. So much so that I don't feel comfortable engaging with the question itself because I can't help but be suspicious of its good-faith intentions.
"Homeland of the Jew"? Validating actual antisemitic Nazi propaganda movies? Asking what happens when non-Jews "notice" these similarities and don't feel guilty like we "expect" you to?
Your edit doesn't help either; if anything it makes it worse. "It is true and anti-semitic at the same time" implies antisemitism is true. Facts aren't antisemitic, but their framing definitely can be and do seem to be here.
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u/OrbitingTheMoon34 Anti-Zionist Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Homeland of the Jew is from a legal declaration by the Netanyahu government. I was tying the state of Israel and its behavior, to the legal reason for its existence.
I have watched Jud Suss. I have also been attentive to the war in Palestine and the social and mass media appearances of Jews in response to the same.
There is very, very obvious overlap.
I think this means something potentially terrible, that it is true and anti semitic at the same time.
I appreciate this is controversial. I also think it is real, and something that Jews, the people of Israel, and their allies should consider for their welfare.
Essentially this -- it is not in the interest of Israel, and Jews everywhere, to behave in the way Nazis behaved. Nor is it in the interests of Israel or Jews for Israel and the IDF to behave in the manner Nazis depicted Jews as behaving.
Facts aren't antisemitic, but their framing definitely can be and do seem to be here.
Ok. I am demonstrating how the existing facts can be framed to construct something that is anti-semitic. Thus, anti-semitic and most likely true.
What does one do with information like this? Wish it away? Ignore it to one's detriment? Change it?
It is a good faith question. The "agenda" in the good faith questions is a suggestion that Jews should be fully aware of the broader ramifications of Israeli behavior.
The world is full of stuff that is terrible and true and not morally fair.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24
I have watched Jud Suss. I have also been attentive to the war in Palestine and the social and mass media appearances of Jews in response to the same.
There is very, very obvious overlap.
You can only arrive at such a conclusion if you only take it at face value without critically analyzing the essence of what is being depicted.
The Jews is Jud Suss don't have an army, don't engage in settler colonialism and are definitely not fascist or nationalist. To the contrary, they represent the antithesis of all those. The creators of that film were fascist nationalists who were engaging in settler colonialism (the Lebensraum), and viewed Jews as the enemies of their cause.
Even in the movie itself, the Jews aren't the ones oppressing, but the opposite. They are the ones being executed and expelled, after being shoved into ghettos, and having laws against them. This is the opposite of the situation in Palestine.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Homeland of the Jew is from a legal declaration by the Netanyahu government.
I'll need a source on that one. "The Jew" is a very specific term that has fallen out of favor amongst anyone except hard-right racists. It is specifically meant to other Jews into a separate category from "The Goy"/"The White Man", treating us almost like a separate creature to the rest of humanity.
I have watched Jud Suss. I have also been attentive to the war in Palestine and the social and mass media appearances of Jews in response to the same.
This is saying that the antizionists are portraying Jews just like literal Nazi propaganda. This comment is literally saying the antizionists are just like the most antisemitic regime in history in their portrayal of Jews. That's what you're saying here. I can't see another way to interpret this other than you're saying the antizionists are antisemitic.
Ok. I am demonstrating how the existing facts can be framed to construct something that is anti-semitic. Thus, anti-semitic and most likely true.
Picking facts that sound racist and using it to justify racism is what literally all racists do.
Plenty of unjustified bigotry can be constructed via very true facts. It is a fact that some Arab Muslim nationalist groups partnered with Nazis during WWII. It is a fact that a number of Arab Muslim groups fighting for Palestinian liberation have previously and/or continue to engage in actual antisemitism. Zionists are constantly using these facts to justify their bigotry against Arab Muslims. Are you saying that Arab Muslims as some sort of collective need to answer for this?
Of fucking course they don't.
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u/OrbitingTheMoon34 Anti-Zionist Nov 06 '24
Homeland of the Jews:
Israel's parliament has passed a controversial bill defining Israel as "the homeland of the Jews — asserting Jerusalem as the capital, Hebrew as the official language and that the right of national self-determination is "unique to the Jewish people." NPR.
This is saying that the antizionists are portraying Jews just like literal Nazi propaganda.
No, this is saying modern Israelis fascists (this is not all Israelis, obviously) and the IDF display themselves in ways that are consistent with the portrayal of Jews in Jud Suss. This is true and not good at the same time.
Picking facts that sound racist and using it to justify racism is what literally all racists do.
Correct. The set of facts I have identified can be combined in a way that has racist implications. That's the problem with these facts. It is not the answer to these facts.
Let's leave out Jud Suss. It is subjective as to whether that behavior depicted in Nazi propaganda overlaps that shown by the IDF in social media and the Fascists in the Israeli government. I think it does. But I am certain there are numerous differences.
The Holocaust is central to Jewish Identity and the creation of Israel. How do Jews emotionally integrate the similarities between the Holocaust and the current war?
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Homeland of the Jews
"The Jew" != "The Jews". That "s" is really fucking important here. "The Jew" is an explicit attempt to construct some sort of "archetypal Jew" that one can ascribe characteristics to and then apply those characteristics at an individual level. The kind of thinking it implies is only done by racists and nationalists (with the overlap between the 2 being nearly a fully circumscribed circle).
(EDIT: I just looked into the law itself, and the actual term used is "HaAm HaYehudi" -- "The Jewish Nation/People". This is how Jews have historically referred to ourselves. The only time "Jew" is used as a noun in the entire bill is when they say that "those who aren't Jews" are allowed to keep their own holidays and days of rest, but in the English version even this gets replaced with "those who are not Jewish".)
Correct. The set of facts I have identified can be combined in a way that has racist implications. That's the problem with these facts. It is not the answer to these facts.
Looking at your comment history I think I might have a better example to help illustrate my point.
White people committed a genocide against the native population of this continent. White people invented the generational chattel slave breeding programs. White people engaged in mass segregation & redlining in this country, keeping anyone they didn't consider "white enough" out of anything considered "too high class" for anyone other than white people. White people invented Apartheid. White people committed the Holocaust.
Do you agree that white people, as a collective, need to answer for these? Do you allow for these to justify, as you'd put it, "anti-white racism"?
The Holocaust is central to Jewish Identity and the creation of Israel. How do Jews emotionally integrate the similarities between the Holocaust and the current war?
I, personally, don't view this conflict as any more similar to the Holocaust as any other genocide aside from the involvement of Jews. I think the emphasis on Holocaust comparisons (at least the ones from outside the antizionist Jewish community) is only because a) this genocide is being perpetuated in the name of Jews, and b) most people aren't really aware of other genocides, or if they are don't think about them much at all. If anything I'd say this genocide is much more similar to the Bosnian Genocide in act, intent, and (unfortunately) likely outcome.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
Is a supporter of Likkud aware of the similarity?
Their rhetoric is usually that Palestinians are Nazis. Similar to how vatniks talk about Ukrainians, with extra dehumanization. Although there have been instances of Israeli right wingers openly embracing nazism. Like when a Likud activist told anti-Netanyahu protesters that he's glad the Nazis burned 6 million. Although that one was directed at Ashkenazi Jews rather than Palestinians (don't waste your time trying to understand these people). Or when Moshe Feiglin quoted Hitler saying "I cannot live in this world if a single Jew is living in it" and applied it to Palestinians.
How does a left wing Jew integrate the similarity of the Nazi Reich and the State of the Homeland of the Jew?
I always point the similarities between them.
Finally, to what extent are Jews of all political persuasions aware that the behavior of Israeli Jews celebrating and murdering in Palestine overlaps the detestable behavior of Jews depicted in Jud Suss?
The behaviour of zionists doesn't overlap with the depiction of Jews in Jud Suss, a dehumanizing and fear mongering piece of propaganda made against an oppressed group. Their behaviour overlaps with those who created that film.
How do Jews expect non Jews to react when they see the similarities? I assume they expect us to feel guilty at noticing. What happens when we do not?
There is nothing for "non-Jews" to notice because this isn't a Jews vs gentiles issue. The zionist state is carrying out the policy of the imperialist powers it answers to and serves as an armed outpost of imperialism in the Middle East, and largely to the benefit of them, mostly white westerners. That's the sole reason for its existence. It does what the imperialists and colonialists (primarily the west) have been doing for the last 532 years, that is settler colonialism, oppression, genocide, and exploitation. So it's wrong and a false analysis to say that "gentiles" aren't a major, even a primary part of this system. Amerikans, and especially whites, play a huge role in this, as well as other imperialist nations.
I should also add that Israel's behaviour isn't at all alien to Amerikans, who are themselves settler colonists. It's a carbon copy of their behaviour for centuries.
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u/uhln Non-Jewish Ally Nov 06 '24
Thoughts on the result of the US election? ( Rants, loathe or expression also can)