r/JewsOfConscience • u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist • Oct 27 '24
Discussion Cultural exchange with /r/Arabs!
Hi everyone,
Today we will be having a cultural exchange with r/Arabs - beginning at 8AM EST, but extending for about 2 days so feel free to post your questions/comments over the course of that time-frame.
The exchange will work similarly to an AMA, except users from their sub will be asking us questions in this thread for anyone to answer, and users from our sub can go to a thread there to ask questions and get answers from their users!
To participate in the exchange, see the following thread in /r/Arabs:
https://old.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/1gd9eb3/cultural_exchange_rjewsofconscience/
Big thanks to the mods over at /r/Arabs for reaching out to us with this awesome idea! Thanks to MoC for posting the original post.
41
20
u/Strange_Philospher Oct 27 '24
How do Jewish people who are both religious and leftists recioncile between religion and leftism? The common narrative in the Arab world established some sort of dichotomy between religion and leftism ( mostly due to political fights between Islamists and leftists ), so I was quite interested to gain more insights from people here. For example, how do u reconcile between the spiritual nature of religious practice and fighting against the material oppressive systems ? Doesn't the focus on one lead to ignoring the other ?
18
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Oct 27 '24
At the moment, I'm non-practicing for a number of reasons; but I do believe in the core tenets of Orthodox Judaism. By and large, most Jewish leftist movements and activists have been secular. That doesn't mean there weren't both rank-and-file religious Jews who were religious as well as leaders. Rabbis like Yehuda Ashlag were anarcho-communists and anti-Zionist. I don't see being religious and leftist as mutually exclusive. To me, fighting against oppressive systems is just something you should do regardless of your beliefs.
10
u/ComradeTortoise Jewish Communist Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
So, there's a few things. First of all I should say that while I have Jewish ancestry, my family was shattered in Russian pogroms converted to Christianity by adoption of orphans a hundred years ago. I am in thus converting to Judaism, but that's on pause, because I don't have a local congregation due to my anti-zionism. Still studying on my own though.
The first is that because Judaism is focused on community practice and not theological uniformity or belief as such, we have a lot of different ideas about what Hashem is, whether Hashem exists, and whether or not that's even important. But no matter what, how we exist in the world is important.
Personally I think that Hashem is a kind of personification of the majesty and strangeness of the universe that Jews have a Jewish relationship with (other religions have their own relationships with it, or conceptualize it as multiple things in the case of polytheists). Whether or not there is actually some kind of conscious entity there I'm not sure, but I think there is.
For me at least, the core of Judaism is Hashem basically having this conversation (Not literally, but distilling everything down into a slightly amusing dialogue for illustrative purposes)
Hashem: hey, you! Be not afraid!
Jews: I that ship has sailed, I am very afraid.
Hashem: Whatever. I have a job for you.
Jews: what kind of job?
Hashem: You are to live a life of spiritual discipline, learn how to live in a just society, and serve as an example for all these other humans to do the same. You are going to help me, and the rest of them, build a just society where there is no war, or exploitation, or Injustice.
Jews: That sounds pretty good, what's the catch?
Hashem: the instruction manual I'm giving you (or inspiring you to write, depending on exact beliefs) is for the world you live in right now. The world will change, and it is up to you how you work with the instruction manual and reinterpret it to fit the world as it changes. Also, People are not going to like you very much, so I'm going to make sure they don't kill all of you.
Jews: I feel like "all" is doing a lot of heavy lifting....
Hashem: Yes.
Jews: ...
After that, the rest is (sacred) folk history/myth and commentary (sacred commentary, but commentary), and a dialectical relationship with Hashem mediated through the Torah. But that world of peace, justice, and non-exploitation Hashem wants us to create? It sounds like communism, at least to me.
Karl Marx said that religion is the opiate of the masses. But when he said that, he didn't mean that religion is inherently bad or incompatible with leftist ideas. What he meant was that religion gets used by the ruling class to salve the wounds in the human soul that capitalism creates. But religion does not have to do that. Religion belongs to us, the people. And we can - must - use our religion to do other things. To build the world that Hashem wants us to build.
4
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
I believe he also said that "religion is the heart of a heartless world".
10
u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 27 '24
There has definitely been a strain in historical leftism that is anti-religion. I believe that is largely due to the way many organized religions have been used as tools of oppression, even against the actual teachings of the religion.
I believe that the only real way for me to follow the tenets of Judaism is through leftism. Consider the levels of tzedakah (charity). The highest level is: “to help sustain a person before they become impoverished by offering a substantial gift in a dignified manner, or by extending a suitable loan, or by helping them find employment or establish themselves in business so as to make it unnecessary for them to become dependent on others.”
This is in line with the leftist belief that people should be kept out of poverty in the first place by having dignified labor and by creating a society that can provide for all. That level of tzedakah can’t be provided using a capitalist/right paradigm.
8
u/Teimywimey Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 27 '24
For me, fighting oppressive systems and working to make the world better is a religious practice. Judaism as I understand it is about justice, standing up against tyranny, and caring for the most vulnerable people in society. The world is a spiritual place, and all human beings have spiritual worth, so caring about the world is inherently spiritual
6
u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
mHm.
Wasn't there a rabbi who said something like ... you are not required to solve the problems of the world, but neither are you excused from ignoring them.
Edit: "It is not your duty to finish the work, but neither are you free to desist from it." (Pirkei Avot 2:21)
6
u/MalkatHaMuzika Oct 27 '24
Just replying quickly (and maybe will add additional info later) that there is an organization for those of us who are religious and leftist! Check out Halachic Left, and you’ll get to read and learn more about how we live out these values!
6
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
I'm a Marxist but also Conservadox (keep the shabbat, all of the important tenets of kashrut, and the things I don't do I admit I'm lax in but don't "nu-uh, I don't have to do that" the mitzvot).
I think religion largely has not adapted itself to the consequences of the shift from feudal or classical modes of production to the capitalist one. To the degree to which it has, either it has doubled-down on inflexible beliefs, it has discarded religious obligation in principle, or it has turned the precarity of life under capitalist rule into its religious belief (I'm looking at Calvinism in particular, but Protestant Christianity in general here). I don't think that's necessary in terms of what religion is, but rather contingent on how religious institutions produce themselves under capital.
I don't know where we go beyond saying at this point that we need proletarian religion to supplant bourgeois religion. At least in the Jewish world right now the bourgeois institutions could not be more clearly betraying us, themselves, and God.
4
u/derlaid Oct 27 '24
Great post, especially since capitalism and the Reformation effectively developed side by side.
You do see strains of religious thought organize itself around changing modes of production, like Liberation Theology or the Social Gospel of some protestant churches but much like a lot of leftist movements these also get crushed by dominant tradition and authorities.
I take Marx's view on religion being an opiate literally, as in its a balm for people. It is not inherently emancipatory, but I don't think it's antithetical to leftism either.
4
u/Last_Tarrasque Non religious Jewish communist Oct 27 '24
I'm a Marxist, as such I am an atheist. I still engage in my Jewish cultural heritage, in the same way an atheist brit might still have a tree, get together with family, etc on Christmas, or how a non-religious Iraqi would feal no need to give up her culture's traditional fashion just because it has been influenced by Islamic ideas about modesty or start adding pork to traditional Iraqi dishes because Islam forbids pork.
At the same time I do break with a lot of Jewish customs, I eat cheese and meat together, I don't bother with Shabbat, etc. I don't eat pork or shellfish not for religious reasons, but because I'm not use to them and my autism makes me suck at learning to like new foods, etc.
I like to engage with my culture a lot though food, I have a lot of recipes passed down by my Nana (grandmother) and Grany (great grandmother) as well as some from my Bubby (other grandmother) which I feel connected to my culture when cooking.
I now re-read your question and realized that this don't really answer your question
5
u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Oct 27 '24
I made a post in r/jews4questioning about that with the a video conversation with Hadar Cohen called "decolonizing spirituality" which touches on this subject! I recommend checking that video out which delved into how spirituality and religion has been weaponized for oppressive systems
3
Oct 27 '24
I would recommend checking out the following podcast episode and book if you’d like to get answers to all these great questions (I’ll also post a review of the book if you don’t feel compelled to buy it 😅)
https://jewishcurrents.org/israels-emerging-religious-left
https://www.academicstudiespress.com/9798887193243/
Heres the review - https://www.972mag.com/religious-zionism-manekin-review/
3
u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
In general, I believe devotion to an Abrahamic religion is difficult to reconcile with liberalism, in particular Judaisim and Islam, because as I understand it, neither permits for separation of "church" and state. However, I dont believe that liberalism is impossible to reconcile with any religion, and I also don't believe that being "liberal" means that one has to, or even should, turn their back on religion.
Whether building a Sukkah or fasting during Ramadan, being annointed with ashes during Lent, or throwing paint at people during Holi, these are all expressions of some universal human need to connect with something larger and greater than ourselves.
Modern society teaches us to strive to be righteous individuals. But there is another "non-individualistic" side to human nature, and traditions are one of the ways we access it, and in so doing, magnify our human experience.
For example, rabbinical judaisim generally determines whether one is religiously Jewish by whether one's mother is Jewish. I used to debate rather forcfully against this interpretation, and I still think there are very valid arguments ...
I also wasn't raised religious at all, apart from the yearly two or three big family events that everyone feels obligated to attend.
So when I was in Israel, I jumped on the opportunity to go to temple with a guy I knew who was rather observant. I had taught myself to read hebrew earlier, and during the service, he was explaining the various customs to me, how one prays and the symbolism of it all.
Next to me was a father teaching his son the same things. I looked over at them at one point -- and it hit me like thunderbolt...
This tradition ... has been passed down like this, from father to son, generation to generation for thousands of years.
Yes, I was in a building on a street in a country called Israel in the year 2009, but I was also a living link in a very real, metaphysical chain that connected me to my ancestors, regardless of time or place.
Did I walk away a religious Jew? No. But I did understand in my soul why devout people feel strongly about their interpretation of who is religiously "Jewish", and no rational argument could ever place that understanding there.
I dont know if this answers your q, but imho, being liberal or agnostic, it doesn't mean you have to turn your back on religious practice or traditions. Maybe you don't pray five times a day, but that doesn't mean you can't find very real meaning in making Hajj or something, you know?
And to take it one step further, I think that when one recognizes that spirituality is a part of the human experience, yet maintains an "open" (instead of "liberal") mind, then one realizes that although there may be differences in how people worship, and there may be sharp divides in doctrine, yet wherever one is connecting with "God", they are experiencing as universal a human experience as there can be, even if one is facing mecca, and the other zion, and yet another is before a cross, or simply meditating alone.
Your question implicates a second issue, however, which is how to reconcile the "better angels" of religion with the very real evils that are in the world (which evils may themselves be created by religion itself).
My personal "religious" journey is a long one, but Buddhism has influenced me the most, and here I actually think the issue is the gravest.
Evil exists in the world, and it must be opposed. And where the evil is great, and it's hard to conceive of an evil greater than genocide, so too is the need and the obligation to oppose it.
Others far wiser than I have pontificated on the issue, but I suspect those evils which are due to mistakes in reason can be addressed passively and through peaceful, but firm means.
But some evils are only capable of men and women who have discarded reason, or are blinded to it by passion or hatred, or who are simply not capable of reason to begin with. In this event, I suspect there is only one prescription, and I would refer you to the Bhagavad Gita for it.
3
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
I don't see how the all-encompassing nature of religion rules out changing the productive mode of society to one that supports rather than restricts the development of almost all human beings? How can any man be moral when he lives within a society that not only economically enslaves him, but makes his existence dependent upon the economic enslavement of almost all other men?
The Torah clearly considers economic matters to be within the moral sphere, but bourgeois society places economic activity outside the realm of social control. This means, therefore, that bourgeois society must go.
2
u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Oct 28 '24
The Haskalah, the Jewish enlightenment, birthed the Reform movement of Judaism. I was raised Reform. The central tenet of the Reform Judaism is Tikkun Olam, Hebrew for “repairing the world.” Reform Judaism was named as such not only because they reformed the religion to consider traditional Jewish law as non-binding and instead center on ritual and spirituality, but because reforming the world for justice is a central tenet. I’ve always drawn on my religious belief to fuel my leftist praxis. It’s worth noting that prior to the 1960s, the Reform movement was mostly anti-Zionist.
13
u/TheRealMudi Oct 27 '24
Hello everyone! I have a question: How is it to be an anti zionist Jew? What are some hardships that come with it? Do you have falling outs with family members? I would think it's not that easy depending on where someone might live!
24
u/suaveponcho Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
It’s quite difficult. In large part because there are almost no mainstream Jewish spaces where you can avoid a firm commitment to Zionism. Where I live virtually every synagogue and cultural organization is Zionist. That means you can’t easily gather in your own religious and cultural spaces without being constantly asked to stand with Israel against the endless horde of antisemitism. So it’s not just family, it is the whole mainstream community that many anti-Zionist Jews have become disconnected from.
Ask many and they’ll tell you they’ve been carrying around a broken heart for the last year. I’m just lucky I’ve had a few years to process my own journey from Zionism, which has made the last year less traumatic for me. For Jews just now becoming informed and engaged on the subject it is a lot to process at once. Whereas I’ve known for years which of my family I can speak with about Israel and which will just shout me down as a self-hating Jew.
I think it needs to be understood that for many Jewish people, arguing at the dinner table used to be seen as this proud badge of Jewish identity. That we are a people who, thanks to a long literary tradition of debating jurisprudence in the Talmud, have the intellectual flexibility and stability to challenge our ideas safely. In my family we used to have amazing, deep political discussions at every holiday meal. Not anymore! So for me, even now, after having already been through years of dispelling myths around Israel I grew up with, I am still finding new ways to be let down by people I used to hold in the highest esteem.
8
u/TheRealMudi Oct 27 '24
Has it always been a thing about self hating Jews? Or is it a new thing made common though what's happening at the moment?
9
Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
The concept of the “self hating Jew” comes from Jewish communities in Germany and Central Europe in the 1800s. At this time, Christian Europe had granted “Emancipation” for the Jews. For the first time in over 1,000 years, the European Jews were allowed to live and participate in mainstream Christian European society. Many of these Jews were happy to adopt a secular lifestyle and become assimilated within European society. But there were also many Jews who desired to remain observant and continue to live in their separate communities. These observant Jews saw the secular assimilated Jews as “self-hating”.
So it is a historical term. It’s not really applicable for modern Jews, as these western social dynamics and class relations no longer exist. But Zionists are often dumb as hell and inappropriately use this term. When they say this, what they actually mean is , ‘A Jew who doesn’t share mainstream beliefs on Israel and Zionism’ 🤦🏻♂️😑
6
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
They've been lobbing that one for decades and decades.
I've been reading J.M.N. Jeffries's Palestine The Reality from 1938, and what's remarkable is that things we think are new (Zionists going around bringing antisemitic tropes to life and then attacking people based on them) are practices going back more than a century. Considering who the early Zionists were (they were all atheist anti-semites of Ashkenazic extraction) I expect this goes back to the 1890s.
5
Oct 27 '24
The Jewish mustar’ib community of Jerusalem in the 1880s considered the first Zionists in Palestine to be Chillul HaShem! Because they were using Hebrew as a common language instead of a liturgical one. Looking back on that, the revival of Hebrew as a modern language is probably the only legit product of Zionism..
2
u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Oct 28 '24
is it true that the revival was largely made possible by Yemenite Jews who were the best preservers of the spoken language?
2
Oct 30 '24
The Ashkenazim who created the Hebrew revival movement borrowed heavily from a variety of Semitic (in the linguistic sense) communities. And one of these communities were the Yemenite Jews of Jerusalem and Palestine. But, Arabic and Aramaic speaking communities had just as much influence.
This video is a pretty solid overview of this period -https://youtu.be/dYNpXmE_-5c?si=0IsOO9Ygc0sCRvRd
1
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
Debasing lashon hakodesh into Israeli genocide-speak is probably the best encapsulation of the Zionist project there is.
9
u/GreenIndigoBlue Oct 27 '24
I have been very frustrated with my family and have had more than one yelling match. Hard for me not to get emotional. I’m not estranged from my family, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to have a desire to interact with them. Fortunately my close family are not so radical as to call me a terrorist or anything like that, but they certain believe some insane things and are very brainwashed.
My mom asked my cousin to talk to me. Conversation was going okay until I suggested that members of Hamas are human beings and many of them have good reasons for joining, and that you would too if your family was murdered by the IDF. I think suggesting that Hamas is anything other than a monolithic evil entity set off my cousin. He called me a self-hating Jew, and asked me to sympathize with the members of the IDF who are just like me. This is probably also because I said “if Hamas are terrorists, then the IDF surely must be terrorists”. The irony is I don’t deny the humanity of members of the IDF, as much as I’m horrified by their actions and believe them to be the equivalent of nazis, I understand the nature of dehumanization and as much as it is hard to, I am no stranger to acknowledging the humanity of people who do horrific things.
On the other hand, it was clear in my opinion that he could not acknowledge the humanity of the members of Hamas the way he was asking me to do so for members of the IDF. He’s a “liberal zionist” so he expressed some hollow sympathy for the non-combatants that are being murdered by the IDF, but ultimately his solution was some pie in the sky marshal plan for gaza which surely equates to more settler colonialism, and is actually impossible because what the Israeli government actually wants is to exterminate or remove as many Palestinians from gaza as possible to make way for settlements.
I told him that his wishes for peace through occupation and deradicalization of Palestinians, aside from the fact that I think it is a bad and immoral idea, is also an impossible thing to achieve when the liberal members of the kenesset will never oust their even more fascist counterparts. The same way in the US Joe Biden and the democrats will never grow a spine and deal with nazism and white supremacy in the inited states.
He had nothing to say to this because he knows I’m right. They can’t stop fascism, and even more so they won’t, because they align more with the fascists than they do with people who want true decolonization.
8
u/Busy_Tax_6487 Oct 27 '24
Must be hard to try to explain how you just want to exchange the same basic human rights to any group regardless but they just don't see that.
It's like yelling to a wall who either way won't budge. And it's crazy how they see that there is nothing wrong with their beliefs as well.
5
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
It's selective blindness with near laser precision. Imagine being able to call out "Islamaphobia" in Republicans but being able to repeat all the same clichés when it comes to the Palestinians in particular or Arabs in general when it comes to supporting Zionism. It's like opposition to anti-Muslim slander is a kind of noblesse oblige, a White Woman's Burden to speak favorably of the savages, but only at the proper time.
I re-read 1984 a few months ago, and it has an apposite term for this: "Crimestop".
9
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
It's extremely alienating since Zionists control the money flow to almost all Jewish institutions, so you'll get things like Rabbis very conspicuously missing the point in their Yom Kippur drashim of what "Is this the fast that I desire?" means -- with laser precision, I mean. Skipping over the single verse that condemns the supporters of this whole sordid business, but quoting the one before it and after it. Or incorporating poems that Israelis have written that are avodah zara. Imagine being the colonial occupier and insisting that God should apologize to you for what "the Arabs" have done.
It almost makes my head explode.
1
u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Oct 28 '24
adding to this, re: Zionists controlling the flow of money to Jewish institutions. There is a synagogue near me where the rabbi denounced Israel as fascist and then even said we should question our relationship with Israel during Yom Kippur and then the following week did a 180 and said our relationship with Israel is the most important thing. I think the Board of Directors threatened his job.
6
u/ComradeTortoise Jewish Communist Oct 27 '24
I can't convert. I am of Jewish (Ashkenazi) ancestry, I feel Jewish, I've been studying for years (idiosyncratically, on my own) and religiously I have a Jewish relationship with Hashem to the extent of my ability while practicing alone. Granted I will never be very Frum... But I cannot convert because locally, every synagogue is either Orthodox (And I'm gay so that won't work), or incredibly Zionist.
I'm gonna look into doing everything virtually through Tzedek Chicago I think.
2
u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
It's really difficult. We are being ostracized completely by our communities, alienating family members, losing friends, and even facing threats of violence. Fortunately my family is quite liberal so they agree with me on some things, like Israel is committing a genocide etc and they hate the Israeli government but they won't disavow Zionism. Some family members have gone out of the way to tell me I'm still welcome at family gatherings but I have some family members that won't talk to me anymore. I went to a family gathering recently that I was warmly invited to but then other family members were shocked to see that I was invited and seemed really offended by my presence. On the flip side, one of my cousins became extremely religious zionist and moved to Israel and then some of my family members were afraid to invite her to family gatherings because they were afraid she would say racist things about Arabs.
I live in New York which is the capital of the Jewish diaspora and a very liberal city, so there is vibrant anti-zionist community here which I am grateful for. I can attend religious services that are completely divorced from Zionism. Jews in places with small Jewish communities and politically conservative areas have a much harder time. I have a friend in Tennessee in which the only religious services offered are Zionist, so he goes to shul but then plugs his ears during the Zionist parts or walks out and comes back. He can't be openly anti-zionist though he does have a small anti-zionist community he is part of. He plans on visiting New York to seek out more anti-Zionist Jewish community.
12
u/endingcolonialism Oct 27 '24
How do you feel about 1) armed resistance in general? 2) October 7 in general?
11
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
- Armed resistance is an inevitable material consequence of occupation. Immediately, this means that occupation produces armed resistance as an inescapable consequence; consequently having feelings about it is like having feelings about hurricanes.
- It was an absolute mike charlie foxtrot. I am reminded of the fourth rule of gun safety, which is "Be sure of your target and what lies beyond it", and Al Qassam Brigades's leadership's fatalism and belief in divine intervention proved fatal. Not securing the entry points to their Area of Operation allowed them to lose control of the battlespace and has produced devastating consequences. All guerilla military operations are by their nature political operations, and this one turned into a fiasco -- what has saved the IRM is the unprecedented open brutality of the Occupation Forces and the hand-wringing glee they take in genocide. That said, many of the atrocities committed that day were fabrications both to cover the IDF's abject incapability as a fighting force, and a way of stirring up perhaps the greatest race riot the world has ever seen. At the same time, if you apply the Zionists' standard for collateral damage to Al-Aqsa Flood, they have nothing they should be complaining about.
And generally: one cannot start a race war and then complain about the things that happen in a race war.
9
u/bogby55 Jewish Oct 27 '24
It's a viable method when peaceful means fail. Imo I think it is unfortunately often romanticized ( and I'm not saying specifically in the palestinian context I'm saying just broadly). It's a horrible and nasty business but it's ridiculous to assume that any people would just sit and take oppression for decades. Hell, jews have surely engaged in it from time to time.
Its a shame it happened but see answer 1. I am personally of the belief that it had many characteristics of a rather successful military operation. At the same time, I think anyone who kills women, children, or old people are absolute POS's, flat out.
Hopefully we shall see peace in our time ✌️
10
u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 27 '24
The Palestinians are in an impossible situation.
The state of U.S. discourse doesn't allow me to talk about armed resistance as openly as I'd like to.
I understood why the Palestinians assaulted a lot of Israeli military and police installations with indigenous weapons and tactics. I only oppose the aspects of their attack that involved assaulting civilians, and while those certainly did occur Israel has exaggerated them with its atrocity propaganda.
Something written in the June, 2024 Wall Street Journal exclusive about Sinwar's private messages has stayed with me. "'Things went out of control,' Sinwar said in one of his messages, referring to gangs taking civilian women and children as hostages. 'People got caught up in this, and that should not have happened.'" Wall Street Journal, Jun. 10, 2024, "Gaza Chief’s Brutal Calculation: Civilian Bloodshed Will Help Hamas."
What happened on October 7th is more complicated than the standard, Western account, and it's amazing to me that people can read that Wall Street Journal article and take nothing away from it but the one-dimensional message reflected in its headline.
7
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
There's also the Drop Site interview with Dr. Mohammed Al-Hindi of Palestinian Islamic Jihad who makes the very good point -- generally corroborated by recent history -- that the less than discriminate use of violence by the Palestinian Resistance has been a consequence of the weapons they've had at hand, and not their intentions. That if they had the GPS-guided bombs that the Israelis do, they'd be attacking the IDF directly.
7
Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
Armed resistance is beautiful.
10/7 was a cluster f*ck. Fedayeen were not expecting the IOF to fire on their own civilians…. And a lot of traumatized Gazan orphans followed in the wake of those carrying out the Al Aqsa Flood operation, and committed some horrendous atrocities.
5
u/ComradeTortoise Jewish Communist Oct 27 '24
No one ever achieved freedom of any kind by asking politely.
Armed resistance is perfectly legitimate, when all other avenues of achieving liberation from oppression have been closed off or exhausted. Had October 7th restricted itself to military or police targets, I would have about as many complaints about it as I do Israeli troops being shot in Lebanon, or American soldiers shot dead in Vietnam or Iraq. That is to say, "I am sad that they died, but I find no fault in it."
Civilian targets (a note: I do not view Israeli settlers, at least not the adults, to be civilians the strictest sense.) are where a line gets crossed. However, I also recognize that such an occurrence, given the humanity of Palestinians and what they've been going through for decades, is an inevitability. The proper avenue for addressing that particular crime is through international humanitarian law and the organs thereof.
2
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
One who starts race war games should not complain when he wins race war prizes.
9
u/BartAcaDiouka Oct 27 '24
Hi! I have a question that I am generally too afraid to ask in real life.
Do you feel that the geographic origin influences the strength of support to Zionism across the Jewish people? I am a Maghrebi and always felt that Maghrebi Jews (particularly those I encountered in France) tend to be particularly supportive towards Israel, while American Jews (particularly from Acshkenazi origin) are somewhat more divided on the issue.
It my anecdotal experience verified on a larger scale? Do you have explanations? I am very much interested in your perspective :)
12
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 27 '24
Preface: Not Mizrachi, but have talked with Mizrachi people in my life on this topic.
It is commonly thought in Israeli politics that, on average, Mizrachi (MENA) Jews are generally more militantly Zionist than non-Mizrachi Jews nowadays. As an example, Ben Gvir is an Iranian-descended Jew whose the current head of Israel's most militant and genocidal political party and leads the far-right there.
Personally I believe that this is because MENA Jews were specifically persecuted by people who look & sound like Palestinians -- predominantly Arab/Muslim people who attacked them in the name of "antizionism". Their attacks are also more recent (mostly starting post-1948, for likely obvious reasons) with some even still being ongoing -- Yemen now only has 1 Jew left because the Houthis have gotten rid of the rest, exiling them to mostly the UAE. When your family is subject to antisemitism by Muslims in the name of antizionism, its becomes more difficult to see a different group of Muslims fighting in the name of antizionism as not just a repeat of that persecution. Trauma -- generational or otherwise -- will always create a panic response, and the closer the stimulus is to the source of that trauma the less likely you are to be able to think rationally.
3
u/BartAcaDiouka Oct 27 '24
Thanks for the explanation.
I understand from your response that you somewhat confirm my impression.
From my understanding of history, there is a significantly different experience for Maghrebi Jews (who frequently identify as Sepharadic, not Mirzachi). Did you ever discuss the subject with Maghrebi Jews?
8
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
Going to break this down and reply a bit out of order. Hope this makes sense!
(who frequently identify as Sepharadic, not Mirzachi)
Sephardic is a label on religious custom, while Mizrachi is a label on area of origin. Most Mizrachi people are Sephardic because they broadly follow Sephardic customs thanks to historical mingling & influence. While I admittedly haven't talked to many Maghrebi Jews myself, everyone I know who uses the label for themselves & others includes Maghrebi Jews in that category.
Did you ever discuss the subject with Maghrebi Jews?
I, admittedly, haven't talked much with specifically people who identify as "Maghrebi" about this; the people I have talked to about this generally identify as "Mizrachi" and are of mixed descent between different areas of MENA (including, but not limited to, countries in the Maghreb). They include persecution from their Maghrebi side in their backstory in the same way they include persecution from their non-Maghrebi side.
From my understanding of history, there is a significantly different experience for Maghrebi Jews
Every single sub-area of the world has treated their Jews differently throughout history; this includes even different sub-areas of what are now the same country in the Middle East. However, when discussing why MENA Jews as a whole might gravitate more towards Zionism IMO a particular focus needs to be put specifically on post-WWII. Zionism as a whole was almost unheard of outside the European-descended Ashkenazi community until after Israel was founded. Once Israel was founded, as far as my understanding goes, the Maghreb was subject to a similar story as a lot of the other Mizrachi/African Jews: the local populations and/or governments were unable to maintain a true separation in the collective conscience between Zionists and Jews, leading to violent anti-Jewish events and/or legal persecutions; Israel offers to whisk them away to safety; Israel stokes the fires, pretending to represent all Jews and committing atrocities; rinse and repeat until there are barely any Jews in the country.
2
u/BartAcaDiouka Oct 27 '24
Once Israel was founded, as far as my understanding goes, the Maghreb was subject to a similar story as a lot of the other Mizrachi/African Jews: the local populations and/or governments were unable to maintain a true separation in the collective conscience between Zionists and Jews, leading to violent anti-Jewish events and/or legal persecutions; Israel offers to whisk them away to safety; Israel stokes the fires, pretending to represent all Jews and committing atrocities; rinse and repeat until there are barely any Jews in the country.
While I am aware of this part, I find it interesting that in what you are describing, you don't mention the impact of colonialism. As the rift between Jewish and Muslim Maghrebis didn't actually start when Israel was founded, but earlier when the French came and started treating them differently: for the colonial authorities, Maghrebi Jews were most definitely "more civilizable" than Muslims, and thus got a better treatment, both legally and in facts (for instance in Algeria they got the French citizenship as early as 1870, while Muslims were considered as subjects with far less political rights until almost the end of colonial rule). Although some of Maghrebi Jews kept feeling stronger solidarity with the endigenous, most enjoyed this favorable discrimination and started to identify more and more to the colonizers (even though they kept being seen as still of lesser value than Europeans).
So the first exodus of Maghrebi Jews was more motivated by the decolonization and the overall exodus of white settlers. And only later exodus (particularly after 1967) were motivated by the conflict in and around Palestine.
I don't know if the fact that you didn't mention this specificity comes from a classic American bias (who tend to lamp us with the "Middle East" as if we weren't actually more to the West than half of Europe) or from my own bias who would tend to exaggerate the significance of an event that most Jews don't care about right now (maybe also because it doesn't fit into the narrative one way or another).
Edit: thank you of course for your answers :)
2
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 28 '24
Neither; I didn't mention it because we aren't talking about how Maghrebi Jews were actually treated in their countries of origin, but how the narrative of how they were treated influenced their stronger Zionism than, say, European Ashkenazi groups. I also didn't mention the fact that the actual, literal Holocaust extended to that region for a similar reason, even though it definitely impacted the Jews there in a real sense.
I also think it worth mentioning that one cannot blame anticolonialism in any sort of vacuum separate from antizionism, because if it was just a case of Maghrebi Jews reacting to anticolonialism we would have seen much more Maghrebi Zionists pre-48. Post 1948 Zionism was (correctly) considered just another form of colonialism that the anticolonialist forces were fighting, so separating anticolonialism from antizionism is nigh impossible. While there was still a rift between Muslims and Jews pre-48, I can't see it as a big influence on specifically leading to large amounts of Zionism in the previously-antizionist Maghrebi community without an extra factor, being that subsequent conflation of local anticolonialism (good) with antizionism (also good) with antisemitism (bad).
Algerian Jews are also a very special case, since they're the only ones who didn't emigrate en masse to Israel. They went to France instead. I honestly never met any Algerian-descended Jews, only Moroccan and Tunisian ones; I'm curious if they even still identify as Maghrebi instead of just being French.
1
5
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
I think it's not geographic origin as such, but rather the immediate experience of antisemitism. And the distribution of that varies geographically. Zionism needs antisemitism in order to give it the appearance of legitimacy (which is why there are no internal-to-Zionist-movement limits on what they'll do in the US, up to and including eliminating the right to free speech).
Consequently, part of Zionism's political program has been to export the "Jewish Question" to the Muslim world. Islam is far more tolerant of Jews than Pauline Christianity is, so there's been a concerted effort to make it appear as if the Umma wasn't where many Jews took refuge from Christian persecution.
9
u/historyhoneybee Oct 27 '24
First of all, I appreciate you all so much. I can't imagine how much courage it takes to stand up for what's right even when other people in your community are against you. Your solidarity and activism has given me so much hope for the world and a future where everyone is safe and liberated.
How has the Jewish anti Zionist community changed over time? Has there been an increase in anti Zionism in the last year and what did anti Zionism look like before October 7?
10
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
I was a wishy-washy "both sides"-er until after October 7th. I put a lot of effort into trying to defend any aspect of the Zionist project but every time I thought I found solid footing it turned to sand and flowed away.
I felt like I was being pulled apart the first week after the 7th, and even told someone who asked my opinion that I know I was being lied to, but not by whom. Over the past year, I've recognized that the people lying to me -- gaslighting me, really, and us by extension, and I mean it in the original sense of the word and not its pop-psych jargon -- were the Zionists. I had to recognize that Zionism was avodah zara, that it was not a complement to Judaism but was an alien and hostile occupying force, and the degree to which all Jewish institutions have been annexed by Zionism.
I can't speak from the inside of anti-Zionism before October 7th, but from the outside it previously looked like anti-Zionism tended to coincide with a rejection of Judaism -- JVPers seemed particularly set on anything that paganized traditional Jewish practice. Since then it feels to me like there's been an upswelling of anti-Zionist Jewry who oppose Zionism because of Judaism rather than despite it.
6
u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 28 '24
Could you give an example of the “paganized” beliefs, as you saw it?
I know for me, I was disengaged with my Jewishness because I didn’t want to confront Zionism. Once I accepted my anti-Zionism it let me engage deeper with my Jewishness, and I have been learning and practicing more since.
5
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 28 '24
My favorite one so far has been the fermentation mikveh.
7
u/comix_corp Oct 27 '24
Hello, one thing I've noticed is that the newer generation of anti Zionist/left wing Jews seems to be more interested in Yiddish than Hebrew. Is this because people feel that Hebrew is tainted by association with Israel, or are there other reasons?
10
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 27 '24
Different people will have different theories, but here's mine.
Historically most "antizionist" Jews weren't actually against Zionism as a theoretical concept, but were more pro-Palestinian liberation. You'd see them advocate for a 2SS, or a 1SS that still allowed for a Jewish "Right of Return", and they still treated Israel as a concept with sympathy.
Nowadays, thanks to the war+the genocide, you're seeing a lot more Jews coming around to being against the concept of Israel as a whole and embracing our diasporist roots. We see not only that the current modern state engages in atrocity after atrocity, but that the state can't even achieve its entire goal of ensuring the safety of its Jewish citizens. If the "Jewish state" can't do the one thing its supposed to do, even while committing so many horrible crimes in the name of doing so, why should it be allowed to continue to exist?
Yiddish is seen as a symbol of the Ashkenazi diaspora. Political Yiddishism was an actual thing in the pre-Holocaust antizionist circles created in response to Israel's adoption of Hebrew. It was promoted by Bundists and similar groups. I think we're seeing a revival of the language among the secular because we're also seeing a revival of the underlying ideological basis of Diasporism also having a revival among younger Jews. I know I, personally, became a full on Diasporist because of 10/7 + the ongoing genocide, even if I'm not actually a Yiddishist.
8
u/bogby55 Jewish Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
I mean I feel like everyone has a different answer to this. My own personal journey to learning yiddish largely stems from the fact that I am an askenazim, and yiddish was the language (among others) that my ancestors spoke.
This being said, I have been in some capacity speaking/learning modern hebrew (some call it israeli hebrew) for practically all my life and I think it's an incredibly useful and interesting language in it's own right. It is unfortunate that, yes, it is inherently associated with israel. However, I think, again in my opinion and experience, it has transcended being solely the language of israel and is now a pretty well respected and important jewish language right up there with yiddish, and will continue to be after the state of israel ceases to exist.
I also just love learning languages so perhaps I'm a bit biased here ;)
اسلام عليكم ✌️
2
u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Oct 30 '24
Before WWII Yiddish was the most widespread and commonly spoken Jewish language. Something like 1/2 Jews worldwide spoke a form of Yiddish. Many other Jewish languages were spoken as well including Ladino (and related languages Baggito and Haketia), Judeo-Italian (many dialects), Judeo-Arabic (many dialects), Judeo-Persian (many different languages), and lots of other Jewish languages and dialects. The Holocaust killed so many first language speakers, especially of European Jewish languages, and the expulsion/deportation of Jews from both Europe and the Arab world caused many of these languages to become endangered. In Israel Zionists tried to further kill off Jewish Diaspora culture. Jews who spoke Yiddish in Israel were often attacked for it.
I don't think Anti-Zionist Jews necessarily think Hebrew has been tainted by Israel. I don't, and it's definitely more complicated than that. But I do think many Anti-Zionist Jews are trying to revive and be proud of Diaspora culture since it has been seen as taboo or shameful because if Zionism, and also just because of antisemitism and the fear of genocide.
9
u/tryingtokeepthefaith Middle Eastern Muslim Oct 27 '24
Shalom / Salam to all my Jewish brothers and sisters! :)
My q is: what are your favourite holidays in Judaism and what do they symbolise for you personally?
Much love ♥️✨
6
u/Saul_the_Raccoon Conservadox & Marxist Oct 27 '24
Wa aleikum salaam.
I've actually never thought about them that way -- observing them is an obligation, and my year flows around them so they mark the progression of time and the passing of the seasons. I always dread the coming of Pesach because it means having to slough off the comfortable torpor of the winter in order to do a lot of cleaning to make the house kosher for pesach, and since having kids it's been very hard to go the extra mile that we used to in giving the house a deep, deep cleaning.
Shavuot just kind of...is. Again, since having kids we haven't been able to stay up all night doing a tikkun like we used to.
The fasts of the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av are unwelcome (the 17th is a minor fast, which follows the same rules of sawm; the 9th is a 25 hour fast), disruptive to trying to enjoy the summer and vacation, and a reminder that Yom Kippur is coming up (17th Tammuz happens 10 weeks before Rosh Hashanah, and Rosh Hashanah happens 9 days before Yom Kippur).
I feel like I'm never prepared for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur is a 25 hour fast, and I'm always worried that I'll be painfully thirsty before it ends, but it is the only day on which we have five services, and typically the fifth service (Neilah) is the spiritual high-point of the year for me.
I'm often sick for Sukkot (Yom Kippur is a great place to pick up colds, plus I have school-aged kids) but Sukkot is a nice transition from the summer to the fall. It's ususally when the weather transitions from warm to cold, when we have a lot of comfort foods and I in particular pick up a bunch of Oktoberfest beer. Vegan sauerbraten, home-made käsespätzle, and root vegetables are a classic for us.
I used to like Simchat Torah, but since the synagogue I've gone to started inviting the members of a synagogue from a nearby suburb to join us it really hasn't been the same. Their "Rabbi" is a Zionist kofer and the suburbs make you psycho.
Chanukah's usually about us wanting to make so many foods but my wife hating the way deep frying makes the house smell. And sitting around the coffee table seeing whether the chanukiot my kids have made this year will catch fire or not.
1
u/tryingtokeepthefaith Middle Eastern Muslim Oct 30 '24
Wa aleikum as-salam. That’s so interesting. Thanks very much for taking the time to reflect on this and type out your experience with holidays in Judaism. Much appreciated.
Reading your comment, I got a sense of just how integral to your day-to-day life Judaism is, and how your life and your faith are interconnected in a symbiotic kind of harmony.
I have a follow-up q now: I wonder, what, for you, do all these holidays share in common, if you had to pick just one thing? :)
4
u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 28 '24
I love the holiday of Sukkot, which just passed. Staying outdoors in the sukkah (hut) as the weather changes to that crisp fall air helps me re-connect with nature.
1
u/tryingtokeepthefaith Middle Eastern Muslim Oct 30 '24
Love that! Sounds very cosy, and refreshing. Thanks so much for sharing. Much appreciated.
4
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 28 '24
Purim, and it's not close.
Practice-wise its extremely fun. Think of it as Halloween with more drinking. We wear costumes, give & receive sweets and snacks, and are religiously commanded to be happy and get drunk.
To me, it symbolizes a microcosm of what Judaism is when contrasted with the cultures around us. Purim is not a celebration of really a miracle, but of Jewish ingenuity and intelligence being used to guide our people from a position of weakness to one of strength. The story of Purim contains no backing miracles or divine intervention, and even the tradition of wearing costumes is because "Gd was hidden in the story and did not reveal himself". And we celebrate by drinking, an act that all other Abrahamic religions looks down upon categorically if not outright prohibits. Jewish culture is using the tools around you to build a community to face your adversity with the tools you have, and become stronger for it; Purim's story exemplifies that. Judaism as a religion is about celebrating the world you live in and being happy for the culture passed down to you; Purim's practices exemplifies that.
I once heard it explained that Yom Kippur -- the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, and our Day of Atonement with a full no food/water fast for 25 hours -- was actually the other side to Purim's coin. "Yom KiPurim" -- the Day Like Purim. Yom Kippur is a lamentation of all the faults of the Jewish People, while Purim is a celebration of our strengths.
2
u/tryingtokeepthefaith Middle Eastern Muslim Oct 30 '24
Thanks a lot for sharing - much appreciated. I don’t personally drink, but Purim sounds like a whole lot of fun w/ all the dressing up and celebrating bc you’re obligated to. Love that.
I especially like that description you mentioned; comparing Yom Kippur and Purim to two sides of a coin (where strengths and weaknesses are both reflected upon). That sounds like a healthy, enriching practice, and is something I believe we can all implement in our lives (for the religious and non-religious alike), to encourage us to engage in some regular introspection.
5
u/comix_corp Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
One other question I had. From what I can gather most of this sub are left wing people, either secular or religiously. How do you assess the anti Zionism / non-Zionism of the ultra orthodox like the Hasidic groups? A lot of them are opposed to Zionism but for reasons that seem less to do with supporting Palestinians and more to do with obscure theological reasons. Are any of them (besides neturei karta) sympathetic to Palestinians?
Btw I wrote this comment on Jewish anti Zionism for r/arabs a few weeks ago, if you have any corrections or feedback I would be very appreciative.
7
u/radiocreature Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 28 '24
i definitely used to be much more bothered by ultra orthodox antizionist groups like neturei karta pre-oct 7th. i do think there are some problematic aspects as to how they are portrayed. people who arent super educated on judaism/jewish people probably have no idea about why theyre antizionist and they get a shit ton of visibility for being. well! visible, despite the many problems in ultraorthodoxy. at the same time it is an insanely powerful image to see an orthodox jew, with peyos and the black hat, being arrested, burning an israeli flag, marching arm and arm with palestinians... so maybe it doesnt quite matter what their reasons are. they show up materially in solidarity when many of us dont. and that says something.
6
u/ComradeTortoise Jewish Communist Oct 28 '24
It's both. Yes they are opposed to Israel for obscure religious reasons (namely, they believe that the return of Jews to Israel will be a Divine act, rather than a political project). But also they still have the long-standing Jewish respect for life and human dignity derived from the Torah, Talmud, and subsequent rabbinical commentary, and they take it seriously.
3
u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Oct 28 '24
I, personally, am more antizionist for antizionism's sake than I am for the sake of Palestine and Palestinians. I have a severe in-group bias that while I try to work on I don't think I will ever go away.
That being said, while I am primarily antizionist because I don't like concentrating the Jews into a single nation-state instead of being against genocide, I am still against genocide. It is entirely possible to hold sympathy in your heart for Palestinians even if its not the primary reason why you fight for them. I don't personally know enough Neturei Karta people to know where the different priorities lie between "Israel can't happen without Moshiach", "Israel is a Chillul Hashem", and "Palestinians deserve rights too", but I'd imagine the final point is still on their radar enough for it to count.
On the other hand, I DO NOT like them being promoted as "the" antizionist Jew standard. They hate me because I am secular and queer, and then promote themselves as the only messengers of "true Judaism" and then call me a "fake Jew" for who I am. In general I am fearful of promoting any right-wing and/or theocratic movement in a liberation movement, because they tend to hijack a movement and turn it into another right-wing horrorfest; see Zionism itself for a perfect example (which originally had Cultural Zionism and Labor Zionism as non-state-focused strains before being subsumed by the Revisionist-Religious chimera that is modern Zionism).
3
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Oct 30 '24
I agree with it theologically, but I don't always agree with them politically. Many have political views that don't resonate with mine. Same way I agree with many secular Jewish leftists politically but not theologically.
10
u/Busy_Tax_6487 Oct 27 '24
Hey I have a question for any mizrahi or sephardic Jews. I'm Moroccan and we have a long history with you guys so my questions goes as follow.
- Do you guys still hold onto some traditions? And if so what traditions.
Is there a disappointment or lose for a lack of better words for those who left their respective countries?
And how would you like to see future relations? I have met a lot of Moroccan Jews(many Israelis and zionist) and while they don't seem to have a problem with Morocco and Moroccans. I just can't comprend how they say that and have the complete opposite addittude towards Palestinianstate.
4
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Oct 27 '24
Is this the thread to ask them questions, or are they asking us?
16
4
11
u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 27 '24
Soooo not an exchange with r/ArabsOfConscience?
I guess regular Arabs already have one 🤷♂️
9
2
u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Oct 30 '24
What is Arabs of Conscience?
1
u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 30 '24
It doesn't exist, because their default is to have a conscience.
(It's a joke)
3
u/lolilololoko Non-Jewish Ally Oct 28 '24
Shalom to my Jewish brothers and sisters. Where some of you here former zionists? Where there any specific situations that helped you break free from Zionism?
6
u/myownpersonallab Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 28 '24
I was. It takes years to break free because it's brainwashing steeped in fear and trauma. I spoke with Palestinians who, in their infinite love and wisdom, had a dialogue with me even when I was Zionist. I learned more about their experience and eventually I realized Zionism didn't make any sense. And that in no world would I want my safety to be built on the pain and genocide of others. I am not suggesting every Zionist is worth dialoguing with, but there ARE some who can come out of it because they are only in it because it was what they were taught. I think not having a holier-than-thou complex is important. Surely there are problematic things we all learned from our parents and communities that we have to undo.
The number one reason it took me so long to come out of it (other than the fact that brainwashing takes years to undo) was seeing actual antisemitism. And specifically, seeing people who were pro-Palestine defending or downplaying actual antisemitism. Or seeing these people stay silent when Jews were being targeted by white supremacists. This all triggered the generational trauma and reactivated the fear that I won't be safe because my family legitimately was not safe. The leftist call that we want a world safe for everyone never felt like it applied to me because I was Jewish. Being anti-Zionist did not stop people from excluding me from th eneed for safety. Even as an Arab Jew.
Best way to keep Jews Zionist is to not stop antisemitism in its tracks. NEVER let it in your spaces. Defend Jews from antisemitism when it is actual antisemitism. Because with real antisemitism, Zionists have something to scare us with. And fear overrides logic. I am willing to bet thousands that there are very few Jews who have ever seen a non-Jew care about antisemitism because they cared about us (rather than, for example, Evangelicals "caring" about it to use the Holocaust as an abortion comparison or use the Zionist project for their colonial aims).
3
Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
There was a thread exactly about this question a few months back. Here’s my response on that thread, which will answer your question here. And if you check out the full thread you’ll see quite a range in answers to your question- :)
https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/A2adx82cAI
I was born in Israel and moved to the US after turning 13. My ancestry is split between Babylonian/Iraqi Jews and the indigenous musta’rib Palestinian Jews. I mention this because my story is very unique for those who share a similar background
2
2
u/yassen155 Oct 28 '24
A more religious question. I have heard the songs of Solomon 16:4 in which I have discovered that our Prophet Muhammad PBUH has been mentioned and I could hear his name clearly as "mohamedim". What do you guys think about that ? It also seems to be talking about someone who will come forth later (relative to the time at which it was written) in english the name is translated to "my beloved one" which is the meaning of the name Mohamed in arabic. We do as muslims hold a firm belief that prophet Mohamed was mentioned in the Torah and the Bible.
5
u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Oct 28 '24
We don't generally talk about Muhammad in a religious context just like we don't talk about Jesus.
•
u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 28 '24
Thanks everyone at /r/JewsOfConscience and /r/Arabs for participating in the cultural exchange!