r/JewsOfConscience • u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist • Oct 13 '24
Discussion Another deranged comment from this fellow, who appears to be protected by Columbia Univ. administration. Whereas anti-Zionist teachers are fired for opposing Israel's genocide - this clownshoe says actual crazy shit regularly without so much as a reproach.
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u/NoQuarter6808 Dad's side is secular Jews (Litvaks) Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
Oh you should see the Columbia reddit page. It is bad enough that it has made me lose any interest in attempting to transfer there after they reached out to me. Obviously it is still difficult for a broke non-legacy like me to get into, but you honestly could not pay me to go there now. I'll stick to my non-ultra-zionist state university, tyvm
That said, imagine how this guy would act if they tried to fire him. It's like staying in an abusive relationship because you're sure they'll kill you if you try to break up with them. Davidai is the sort of zealot that authorities should have their eye on
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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Oct 14 '24
Reddit is very easy to astroturf. You can literally take over an idea using a swarm of bots, mods can be infiltrated or influenced and suddenly that subreddit, and that "idea" is yours.
You can notice patterns, if the mods aren't of the grassroots movement with a clear understanding of what's happening and the risks, the subreddit gets taken over, the real members get pushed out or harassed and all that remains is a Zionist/state department echo chamber.
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u/Euphoric_Exchange_51 Oct 14 '24
It’s also extremely easy to get a bunch of otherwise real users together to pretend to be students.
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u/softwareidentity Anti-Zionist Oct 15 '24
you don't even need bots. I saw some place zionists were getting people to spred their propaganda on specific posts in exchange for discount coupons lol
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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Oct 15 '24
😳😳😳😳 I've not seen that yet. Imagine pushing apartheid and genocide apologia for coupons. What stage of capitalism is that??
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 14 '24
Weird, I lurked on that page when the protests were happening, and it seemed pro-Palestinian. Maybe it's been brigaded/completely taken over by keyboard Zionists.
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u/NoQuarter6808 Dad's side is secular Jews (Litvaks) Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
Yeah, it's flipped pretty hard
A brave few still argue against zionism, but they get ganged up on and downvoted like crazy.
It's a can of worms at this point
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u/Euphoric_Exchange_51 Oct 14 '24
I’d caution against evaluating sentiment there on the basis of a semi-anonymous forum. Most of those posters/commenters probably aren’t even students.
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u/onepareil Non-Jewish Ally Oct 14 '24
Fwiw, speaking as an alum who posts there semi-regularly, most people on that page (at least, commenting on the posts related to Israel or Palestine) have nothing to do with Columbia. Everyone I know who’s a current or former student thinks Shai Davidai is an embarrassment. Also, keep in mind that last year’s encampment started after Columbia College (and Barnard College) voted in favor of divestment from Israel (and non-Israeli companies that back the occupation) by a pretty huge margin. The actual student body (and many if not most faculty) is pretty firmly pro-Palestine, even if they may not connect with some of the harsher rhetoric CUAD has adopted recently. Unfortunately Columbia admin sucks, and that’s always been the case.
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 15 '24
Imagine having your university sub Reddit brigaded. What a fucking nightmare. What do you do? create a new sub Reddit only for people with a Columbia email address? What a drag
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u/Minimus--Maximus Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 13 '24
A year later, these assholes still have no evidence of the mass rape claims. They're still relying on the same israeli NGO that also refuses to provide evidence. The one time said NGO released a name, the (dead) woman's family immediately spoke out to refute it.
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u/hornyemergency Oct 14 '24
Meanwhile we have proof of Israeli rape of Palestinians which gets shockingly little criticism and attention outside of already anti Zionist circles
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 14 '24
The thing I saw recently that kinda blew me away was the 'car graveyard'. Something like 150 of them were recovered from between the festival area, and Gaza.
In other words, blasted by Israeli attack helicopters and drones as they drove towards Gaza. How many Israelis were in those cars? 100? 200? 300?
I don't wish to minimise the horror of what happened that day, but the Israeli government sure is happy to maximise it.
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Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 15 '24
CORRECTION: thanks to u/lalsladeemu for the article below which states ‘some 70’ vehicles were attacked by the IAF. It still doesn’t change the fact that ‘the Middle East’s only democracy’ murdered its own citizens for politico-military gain.
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Oct 16 '24
If you’ve not already seen this, here’s the Bad Hasbara episode with the investigative journalist responsible for uncovering much of this info.
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u/jonawesome Oct 13 '24
It feels stupid to argue with facts or logic about this bullshit but from someone who has actually read TNC's new book, it does not discuss October 7 at all (since it's about his trip to Palestine several months earlier).
I can't say I have seen every single interview he's done about his book, though I've seen many, and any time someone has asked him about the 10/7 attacks he has been clear in his revulsion and condemnation of them.
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u/NOLA-Bronco Oct 14 '24
The closest he comes to ever touching upon it is in his own personal reflection on whether he would be non-violent if put in a Palisteneans life experience.
At best you would require taking that to the most insane conclusion that empathizing with the drive for armed struggle against occupation and ethnic cleansing = you support raping women
It's just fucking wild, and wildy hypocritical considering this same professor's Twitter page is loaded down with apologism for Israeli atrocity. So I guess I am safe to conclude he supports raping women and sodomizing people to death in the name of Israel?
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Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
I’ve not read the book yet. But I just listened to Coate’s interview about his book on the Ezra Klein podcast. Coates is such an incredibly thoughtful individual and overall great human being. Someone who genuinely wants to make the world a better place. He will likely go on to be considered as a top American public intellectual of the 21st century… Davidai is a disturbed and profoundly ill individual who needs help..
Here’s the link for anyone who’s curious to listen ⬇️
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u/touslesmatins Non-Jewish Ally Oct 13 '24
Same with his interview on Trevor Noah's podcast
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2qKoMEdGSxMmSwahGuTv0Y?si=BSNpxJfPT2aGXL6Oj4VnHw
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Oct 14 '24
I haven’t listened to Ezra Klein in a while. Has he spoken a lot about Israel and Palestine recently? Is it worth it to listen to the interviews?
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u/Tuesday_Addams Oct 15 '24
He has done 3 eps about I/P just in the past few weeks. The Coates interview, one with David Remnick and another with a journalist analyzing the Biden admin’s failure to influence Netanyahu. I thought they were all worthy listens in different ways. Remnick is the guest who I disagree with the most, his argument basically boils down to that the situation is terrible but that there is no realistic and workable path to peace currently possible (he believes that the two state solution is the only tenable goal) especially because the leader waiting in the wings after Bibi is likely Bennett who is also pretty hardcore, so the status quo must remain. The Biden admin reporter (name escapes me) had some interesting insights on the American policy side of things. And Coates is very admirable in his moral convictions. Overall there’s no real sense of hope to be found in any of the 3 eps though. Ezra Klein’s own focus seems to be on getting guests to try to articulate a way forward to end this crisis which no one is really capable of doing. It’s defeatist in a way but also fairly honest
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Oct 15 '24
Thanks for the sum up, might give it a listen. I do share the defeatism of a lot of those views too
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u/SuperBearJew Oct 13 '24
This is absolutely horrific, but I'll admit I was very confused for a moment as to why Toronto Blue Jays journalist Shi Davidi was spreading hate online.
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u/buried_lede Non-Jewish Ally Oct 14 '24
The firings at Columbia have improved things. Only the best remain /s
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 14 '24
Well, Israelis largely don't see much problem raping Palestinians anytime.
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u/Express_Variation_52 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 13 '24
Zionism 🤝Anti-Blackness
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u/LeviOsa_not_LeviOSAR Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
I recommend going to Kafia Haile's IG. She is a Black American woman who spent time in the West Bank. Early on she did a Palestine Teach-In every Thursdays on zoom. After months of doing that, she took a break, but now is back every Wednesdays. She gives really good perspective, especially as a Black American, including anti-blackness in zionism.
Edited to add: an interesting info from her. She created a digital library for Palestinian students because Israel forbid Palestinians to read books by Black Americans, they are not available in Gaza and West Bank (but available in Israel) so she and a group created a digital library that allow Palestinians to read them.
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Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
This is actually a really important and somewhat complicated conversation on its own (and something Coates discusses). The concept gets pretty confusing when imposed on Israel/Palestine. I think it’s still accurate, but it’s just not obvious upon surface level observation. If you spend time in the West Bank or East Jerusalem, you will often see IOF soldiers who are black Ethiopian Jews, enforcing apartheid and Jewish supremacy against “white” looking Palestinians. And there really isn’t a parallel to this in the US, it’s a different dynamic than black cops or black members of the US military. But if you remove racial signifiers, the raw systems of power and supremacy are essentially the same.
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u/Express_Variation_52 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 13 '24
Thank you for this response. I appreciate hearing more about the nuance and I do think many of us living in the West definitely try to oversimplify by trying to make one-to-one comparisons between here and there. And then, supporters of Israel do similar things by saying, how can we be colonial, racist, etc., when most of Israel "isn't white"? (I'm sure I don't have to tell you this).
Something about this post from Davidai feels like it's specifically trying to appeal to anti-Blackness in the so called US, as have other, similar posts I've seen about Coates that seem directed towards a US audience. I recently saw a slide deck "debunking" Coate's book's claims. These so called debunkings were easily refuted by the simplest Google search, but the one that got me was something like, "the pay gap between Palestinians and Jewish people in Israel is the same as that between white and Black in the US--are you saying the US is a caste system too???". Such a silly attempt at a gotcha when the answer is a clear, uh, YES. Just clearly trying to defend racism with racism.
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Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
Yes exactly. Zionism really was/is influenced by white supremacy, but the manner in which that system of power manifests itself is not so obvious in the context of how it’s experienced IRL.
However, I think this dynamic between Davidai and Coates does take on more of that classic American anti-blackness, just as you mention.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 14 '24
I was watching the latest Bad Hasbara episode and they (Naomi Klein specifically) talked about how the Nazis were influenced by earlier German colonial practices (ie in Africa) and also by America's treatment of the indigenous peoples.
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u/Daphneblake02 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 14 '24
That was hands down one of their best episodes. So glad they got her on the pod, she's incredible
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 14 '24
Yea, I thought their discussion was really interesting and there are a lot of good takeaway messages.
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u/LessEvilBender Oct 13 '24
It’s actually more similar to US style racism than you think. Israel is wildly white-supremacist even within Jews. Zionism was born an Ashkanazi movement, and Israeli Jewishness is reduced/flattened to looking like Ashkanazi version of Judaism.
Further, you can look at the treatment of Israeli society towards Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews. For example, the Israeli government admitted to sterilizing Ethiopian Jews for years (sound familiar?).
I personally feel Israeli white supremacy is very similar to US white supremacy, even if there are some differences. Ultimately if Israel ever got what they wanted (wipe out the Palestinians, Iranians, Jordanians and Lebanese) the next groups to get placed in the out groups will be the Ethiopians and Mizrahi.
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Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
So I was born and raised in the Mizrahi community in Israel, and have a bit of insight from being on the “inside” of that community.
What you are saying is 100% true in a historical context. But this general analysis has not been updated since the post-second intifada era. I don’t wanna write a whole essay on differences in birth rates and demographic change in 21st century Israeli society. But I think a great signifier that this analysis is largely outdated, is the fact that “Ashkenazi” is now considered a political/societal slur in Israel. The modern Israeli Mizrahi community are far more religious and Zionist than the Ashkenazi society that formed the state of Israel. Israelis who entirely descend from Ashkenazi ancestry are only around 30% of the population (70% are either mixed or entirely Mizrahi/Sephardic). And this demographic trend is only growing. This is why the analysis you refer to needs to be updated and adjusted for the current and future reality
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Oct 14 '24
Thanks for the great commentary.
One question: how many 'extremist' Israelis are Mizrahi?
Put another way, what percentage of West Bank settlers are non-white? I don't have a view either way, but I feel like when you see 'hilltop youth' etc., shooting at or otherwise harassing Palestinians, they are of European descent. Happy to be wrong though.
Side story: when I was in Israel in 2019, I met up with a white New Zealander who'd made Aliyah some years earlier, and was raising his young family in occupied territory (Pisgat Ze'ev I think). He basically said the reason he lived there was because it was heavily subsidised by the government. So while there are settlers who are there due to their religious zealotry, it sounds like many others are simply working class Israelis who can't afford to live in Israel.
Post-script: last time I checked, he'd moved to the Haifa area.
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Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
I’m hesitant to make claims about statistics without doing appropriate research, but here’s my analysis…
Illegal West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements are heavily advertised to the Mizrahi community. And much of this is for material reasons. The Mizrahi community tends to be more working class, and historically have less access to institutions that grant upward mobility in Israeli society. There is also a significant cost of living crisis in Israel that’s been ongoing for over a decade now. The settlements are much cheaper than living within the ‘48 borders. And the government provides many financial incentives on top of the cheaper housing costs.
This all coincides with the Mizrahi generally being more religious and Zionist, which amounts to even greater motivation for them to move there. The West Bank geographically consists of the vast majority of what was once Judea and Samaria. So if you’re a religious Zionist Jew wanting to live where the ancient Jewish people lived, the West Bank is where you want to be.
It should be pointed out here, that the Palestinians living in the West Bank, especially the northern West Bank, essentially are the direct ancestors of the ancient indigenous Jews who once lived in historic Judea and Samaria…
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 14 '24
This is also continuous with long-standing Israeli policy, which is that Arab Jews are to form the human shield-wall on the Israeli frontier. As I'm certain you're aware, this is what they've been doing since the 1950s.
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Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
Yup. But at this point, my community is all too happy to be those ‘shields’…🤦🏻♂️😑
Seriously I will give you Ashkenazis masgouf in exchange for gefilte fish, if you also take Ben-Gvir or Eylon Levy or Ayelet Shaked. I’m willing to offer kubba patata for latkes at this point. You can even keep the latkes and take tebit if you accept all three of them in a trade
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 14 '24
I'm reminded of how back in the 1970s in the US, if you were black the last thing you wanted to see roll up on you was a black police officer.
Personally I'm a vegetarian (never liked the taste of fish, parents had grown up working class in the 1940s and 1950s in New York so we'd have red meat whenever possible) so what vegetarian dishes have you got in your portfolio that you could part with?
Also to be clear, according to Israelis we invented arab salad (but apparently putting sumac in it like you're supposed to is KHAMASSS), felafel, khummmmus, olive oil, pita, and the abstract concept of time, so no trying to pull a fast one by putting any of those on the table.
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Oct 14 '24
It’ll be painful, but I can offer you M’hasha
Honestly I’d have no problem going vegetarian or even vegan if I still lived in the Middle East
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 14 '24
Have you read Shay Hazkani's 'Dear Palestine'?
I don't want to psycho-analyze or generalize, but when you mentioned that Mizrahi are now more Zionist than the Ashkenazi, it reminded me of a passage from the book.
In this case, some were disillusioned by the conduct they witnessed during the war and the resultant ethnic divisions.
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Oct 16 '24
I’ve read a few passages from the Hazkani book, including the one you just posted, is the book worth reading in its entirety? I’ve read an absurd amount on ‘48, so I just wonder if the book stands out from the rest of the literature on the topic.
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 17 '24
It provides a lot of insight into the propaganda initiatives used by the Yishuv, ie casting the Arabs as 'Amalek' - which is relevant now as well unfortunately.
There's some interesting info I gleaned from the book like how there were only roughly 6,000 Palestinians who actually fought in the 48' War.
Or how Arab propaganda was less demonizing/less violent than Israeli propaganda. Lots of details like that, which I don't think are covered in other books.
I think of the book as fleshing out a lot of details other books don't go into. Since this book is based on letters and correspondence, it presents a unique, personal outlook.
Available online for free in case you don't want to buy it on Kindle/etc. :
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=BF6AF968AEAEF3BF30215876BFB03C59
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Oct 17 '24
Just purchased. Thx for the recc!
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 17 '24
Nice!
One of my favorite parts in the book is where, spoiler, Hazkani addresses/contradicts another famous New Historian:
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u/acab415 Oct 14 '24
This dude is so unhinged. Clearly the shift in society where you don’t get punched in the face for being an asshole was a move in the wrong direction.
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u/ptrmrkks Oct 13 '24
is this not the same guy that was on video accosting a palestinian woman ? why would columbia hire him after he was fired from another university ?
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Oct 14 '24
Columbia has really trashed the value of their credentials. Now it's like "oh thats the fascist pro-genocide school that beats up its students right?"
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u/xarjun Anti-Zionist Oct 14 '24
Ok. Can we please arrange a letter template to send to the Columbia administration?
A person with these views, continuously spewing open libel and hate-speech, is a danger for all attending campus.
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u/GB819 Deist Ally Oct 14 '24
Who are some anti-Zionist teachers who were fired? I know of Norman Finkelstein, wondering who else. I don't think Walt and Mearsheimer were fired, but I haven't kept up with it.
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