Ben-Gurion debunking himself that the indigenous Palestinians are the Jewish nation who weren't mistreated by Arabs. Later accusing them for "being forced to avoid their faith".

[u/Aljameel1]

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

It is not about debating but more about awakening the brainwashed ones supporting this oppression in the name of "antisemitism". It is nonsense that murdering a foreign atheist zionist would be labeled as "antisemitism" meanwhile once the indigenous jew became a Muslim it is "okay".

[u/[deleted] → u/Aljameel1]

I think I get what you’re trying to say. There is a deep irony in that Ashkenazi Jews created a movement that ethnically cleansed a people who are the most direct ancestors of the Israelites and ancient Judeans. At least that’s what seems to be suggested from the Ben Gurion quote.

But your comment here doesn’t really logically follow and relies on a misunderstanding of the term, “anti-Semitism”

Feel free to clarify if I’m just not following

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

Exactly you got my point.. I understand the terminology of antisemitism in Europe and how christian Zionism is about seeking revenge from Jews. And how the terminology of antisemitism in modern history included conspiracy about Jewish Plans and so on.. Yet, the Jewish who converted into Christianity, and majority to Islam whose ancestors may have antisemitism themselves. Now being killed in the name of being "antisemitic".. meanwhile the Muslims don't even believe that Jesus was murdered not even to mention seeking revenge for him! That's why the middle east was their preferred destination. Yet Zionism made sure for a century to make every Arabian seeking for personal revenge from them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aljameel1]

Ah okay I see what you’re trying to say. Yea I’m an Arab Jew and my family comes from Iraq and Palestine. Zionists have long tried to convince us Arab Jews that any kind of conflict or periods of oppression we experienced in the Arab world was exactly the same as what the Jews in Europe faced. To create this idea that Jews can’t be safe anywhere on earth except for a state where Jews are the only ones with power. But of course we experienced a much better life in the Arab world than the Jews who ended up migrating to Europe. Not perfect, but much much better.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

Lavon Affair' עסק הביש ' It is an example of how Zionists were doing crimes against jews and foreigners in Arabian countries to accuse the Arabs of doing it, to accelerate the Jewish migration into Palestine.

The Egyptian theater and cinema in 30s, 40s is a great example of how Jewish were beloved in their Arabian nations.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aljameel1]

Yep. Mossad did some pretty evil shit. There was already tension in much of the Arab world around WWII and right after. All the European colonizers leaving left a gap in who got to be in charge, and some of the more radical Arab nationalist groups like the Ba’athists in Iraq who viewed us Jews with suspicion were trying to gain power. Then the Farhud happened in Iraq (which is when my family left), and then Mossad carried out those false flag attacks which created even more fear, and then in ‘48 after the Nakba many in the Arab world thought the Jews were all Zionist spies which created riots in some places and was the tipping point that led so many of the Arab Jews to come to Israel. But of course this wasn’t the case everywhere. The Moroccan Jews were quite safe and still welcomed in their country. They left because Israel offered them free property, education, and better jobs

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

I am glad that it is not hidden anymore. I would love to add that the middle eastern Jews once they crossed the borders into the occupied Palestine, the zionist authorities destroyed their papers so they weren't able to come back when they were shocked about what's really going on.

[u/berryjeejam → u/[deleted]]

a bit unrelated but can i ask how u feel about being called an arab jew? i’ve seen a lot of mizrahi jews get offended to be called arab jews and completely dissociate themselves from that identity despite sharing much of their culture and their parents/grandparents native tongue being arabic. would u say its due to arab racism in israel or anger bcos arab countries didn’t protect the jewish population from riots etc?

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

Just sarcastic about the fact though he is the leader of an ideology founded by an atheist is labeling the indigenous Jewish people as greedy people "chose to abandon their faith" in order to keep lands.

[u/AnteaterPersonal3093 → u/Aljameel1]

You're right. I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Him as an atheist talks down on arabs who converted but ruled a country which claims to have religious freedom

[u/floralcroissant → u/[deleted]]

...What?

[u/screedor → u/floralcroissant]

Jews have lived in Palestine for 2000 years.

[u/floralcroissant → u/screedor]

Yes....your original comment comes off as conspiratorial language...

[u/TojFun]

I don't get it. Where’s the contradiction?

He essentially says that the Palestinian farmers are descendants of the Jews who stayed in Palestine, and converted when the Jewish nations lost power. Is he wrong?

In my understanding, this is very possibly the case, at least for some of them. We know for a fact that many Jews converted and that Palestinians are indigenous Levantines.

Israelis and Zionists tend to strongly deny that possibility. It makes sense that they would. And based on what we know about Ben Gurion, it makes sense that he didn't.

[u/DuePractice8595]

Zionists constantly insist that all of the Jews just magically up and left and/or were expelled but that’s more projection than anything. Historically, it’s an outlier for an empire to conquer land and also remove the entire population and replace them with their own settlers.

Typically the land is conquered so that you can tax the population and have access to their resources and labor.

A land without people is virtually useless to an empire that is headquartered 1000 miles away where they already have their own civilization built up.

[u/Weak-Doughnut5502 → u/DuePractice8595]

Didn't Rome previously do it when they destroyed Carthage?

The Jews weren't expelled by Rome when it initially became a Roman client state and later province,  but generations later after the Great Jewish Revolt and the later Bar Kochba rebellion.  Those wars also resulted in the destruction of the second temple and the razing of Jerusalem.

[u/Glad-Degree-4270 → u/Weak-Doughnut5502]

Records indicate that Jews were largely deported and were completely barred from Jerusalem but still had a presence throughout the region, albeit a reduced one.

[u/[deleted]]

It would be helpful to link and cite a source if you are going to make these claims. It is entirely unclear to me if what I am reading is a quote or paraphrase and whether it actually comes from Ben Gurion.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

The sources are already in the first comment.

[u/proletergeist]

We absolutely do not need to engage with race science for any reason at all.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/proletergeist]

Not sure whom you are representing by saying"we". And no one is forcing you to engage in anything. not to mention that it isn't a biology post. Regarding your comments on other posts, not sure who hired you as a 'content guard'

[u/specialistsets]

What is the contradiction between the statements? This was a popular theory among early Zionists, that the fellahin were fully or partially descended from ancient Jews who were forced to convert to Islam after the Arab conquest.

[u/screedor → u/specialistsets]

It could be that many converted as they saw liberty from their oppressors. Their oppressors being Rome and the temple elites who worked directly with Rome.

[u/[deleted] → u/specialistsets]

My understanding is that the fellahin were indeed the direct ancestors of ancient Judeans who avoided displacement and acquired greater economic/social standing thru conversion to Christianity and then Islam. Is there evidence to believe that this is not the case?

[u/Aljameel1 → u/specialistsets]

What is the contradiction between the statements? This was a popular

"was"

were forced to convert to Islam after the Arab conquest.

'The Arab (......) did not touch the local population.'

among early Zionists,

Both statements for the same zionist, first one as a "cute" refugee, the second one as a militant settler spreading Hasbara.

[u/specialistsets → u/Aljameel1]

The first statement underlined in red is about expulsion and/or murder, the second statement underlined in blue is about being forced to convert. I personally don't believe this to be true, but it was indeed a popular theory at the time.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/specialistsets]

the second statement underlined in blue is about being forced to convert

The last blued words ' to remain on their land' contradict the first expulsion mentioned in the first red one.

And being forced, contradicting the first red one 'did not touch the local population'

[u/specialistsets → u/Aljameel1]

The theory is that they weren't immediately expelled or killed but were later forced to convert to Islam. I don't know if this is supported by modern historians, it was just a pet theory at the time. There are many real issues with Ben Gurion, this isn't one of them.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/specialistsets]

but were later forced to convert to Islam

• Just a side note: In Islam there is nothing as "forcing" someone to convert to Islam. It is already forbidden and there are categories of laws in Islam about how to deal with non Muslims citizens. So forcing them to be Muslims would make nonsense of the existence of these laws in the first place.

• The mentioned era 7th century, the Muslims as a 40 years old nation, conquered in a few years both 'thousands of years old' Roman and Persian empires, under the leadership of Omar. The Persian, Roman leaders once they were captives they know that according to Islam it is strictly forbidden to kill a new Muslim as his previous sins Turns to be good deeds. So they announce they are Muslims as a tricky way to avoid the deserved punishment of their betrayal acts. One of them did that, later assisinated Omar.

Here is a brief story according to the historian.

In contrast, the Arab tradition holds that Hormuzan, when first brought as a prisoner before the Rashidun Caliph Umar, was asked to convert. He refused, and so Umar called his executioner to kill him as he represented the last of the Persian leadership. At that point Hormuzan asked for some water, claiming that it would be cruel to kill him while thirsty. Umar had water brought, and upon Hormuzan obtaining a pledge of safety until he'd finished drinking he threw the cup to the ground. He then asked the Caliph if he would keep his word, and Umar agreed and spared his life. Immediately afterwards, Hormuzan converted to Islam, explaining that he had not wanted it said that he'd converted for fear of death.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

Maimonides

Are you talking about Maimonides the same one who fled to Cairo the capital of the Islamic kingdom in the 12 century and was trusted to be the personal healthcare doctor for the King 'Salah elden' who defeated the crusades and freed Jerusalem from the crusades invasion and allowed the Jewish to come back?

Cordoba

Not sure if you know that the Spanish Inquisition was basically a genocide against the Muslims of Cordoba.... Unless you think Cordoba survived.

kill him as he represents the last of the Persian leadership.

Not sure why you are extracting the words out of its context. And, it is obvious that though he didn't convert to Islam in the first place, he was pardoned.... So it is obvious that he was offered a 'license' according to Islamic terminology. Not sure which old or modern history the kings of enemies were pardoned once they were defeated.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

No I mean Maimonidies Goldfarb. We used to be neighbors.

I tried to research that but find nothing. So kindly share a reference so I can answer you.

Islam doesn't allow for forced conversion what are you talking about?

Islam strictly forbids enforcing beliefs, it is the basic core of Islam. Islam isn't responsible about the behavior of individuals belonging to political regimes even if it 'happens to have Islamic identity'. Believe me if there is something like that in Islam I won't sugarcoat it and I won't even try to hide it. It is the basics.

but it's also specified that he was killed because he wouldn't convert

He got the license, he refused it, and finally was pardoned because of a cup of water. Later he murdered the one who pardoned him...! If Islam was really about "killing", then Umar would have stayed alive if he did so.

Not to mention that the knife was poisoned and that Omar gave Orders that if he stayed alive then no one should touch his murderers.

Imagine if jews were pardoning Hitler for a cup of water...

[u/[deleted] → u/Aljameel1]

"In Islam there is nothing as "forcing" someone to convert to Islam. It is already forbidden and there are categories of laws in Islam about how to deal with non Muslims citizens."

I mean traditionally it was either convert, pay the jizya, or die. To my mind that is force. I recognize that many Muslims today don't believe this, but it is how Islamic empires largely governed.

[u/Aljameel1 → u/[deleted]]

Not sure where you are living, but in the U.S if you didn't pay taxes you would expect the FBI...

I mean traditionally it was either convert, pay the jizya, or die.

Jizya, anf Zaka are like taxes. Zaka is paid by Muslims, and Jizya 'much much lower than Zaka' paid by non Muslims and they are pardoned for joining the army so they don't have to fight against people with their beliefs. Sure the heavy weight champion Muhammad Ali would have preferred to pay Jizya than being sent to jail for refusing to fight innocents in Vetinam according to his 'islamic beliefs' , yet his peaceful beliefs weren't respected.

I recognize that many Muslims today don't believe this, but it is how Islamic empires largely governed.

Or, I recognize that many non Muslims today don't believe it wasn't like this.

[u/arbmunepp]

It's really not relevant at all who is descended from whom. Or who claims what relationship to the land. The only relevant thing is that you don't get to have ethno-supremacist states and you don't get to cleanse or kill people because of their ethnicity. That's really all there is to it.

[u/Aljameel1]

Source

[u/super_soprano13]

I saw someone make a post about Palestinian babies being taken from mothers during the Nakba the other day as well, and that being part of why DNA tests are outlawed in Israel. It's so wild that people can't see all the things that have actual documented proof.