Why America is looking increasingly powerless as Israel’s war expands - The pattern of American impotency and Israeli defiance has played repeatedly since October 7

[u/Horus_walking]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/30/politics/america-israel-lebanon-war-analysis/index.html

[u/justwantanaccount]

The country that spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined? Constantly sending tens of billions of dollars of weapons to Israel? That doesn't need Congressional approval, that only requires the President to send/stop it? That constantly provides Israel diplomatic cover for their genocide, that installed pro-Israel dictators in the region, that rulers in the region don't want to fight back Israel too much because they know the US will join the fight if they do?

Powerless??? Did the author of the article lose their brain or something???

[u/Maherjuana → u/justwantanaccount]

So America should cut off funding to Israel… but they already have enough weapons to complete the genocide so that plan wouldn’t really do anything but alienate Israel from America.

It’s interesting but I really don’t think anyone in this thread has a decent grasp on world geopolitics and realities.

America can’t stop Israel short of actively using weapons against them. Hamas is not our ally and will not thank us in any meaningful way for this. It would save many innocent lives in the short term while setting the region up for an even larger conflict down the line… or it would be exactly the push to make the genocide occurring in Gaza look small by comparison.

There are a lot of consequences to consider towards any plan of action.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Let me get this straight. You are ok with the genocide happening because

1 - it would alienate Israel 2 - Hamas wont thank the US 3 - because oh so moral and oh so honest Israel says if they do not genocide the Palestinians there will be a larger conflict?

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

No im not okay with genocide happening im just pointing out that people are really dense if they think its as simple as “US cuts funding for war and peace ensues”

1-Israel has enough weapons on hand to continue this war without or without US assistance for several years. We can’t end this war with a phone call or it would have been done.

2-cutting off funding would push one of our only firm allies in the region over to one of our enemies who would happily fund them(Russia or China comes to mind but their are others who they can go to)

3-cutting off funding would prolong the conflict as it would give time for Hamas and the Palestinian fighters to regroup and rearm and prepare to continue the war. Which in turn makes it even bloodier in the long term.

The only way to truly make the war end tmmrw would be for America to send soldiers into Israel and make it stop… which would be an absolute bloodbath leaving thousands for dead.

So while I’m not okay with genocide I think its bs to make nonsense statements like “America needs to cut funding to Israel and end this war” when that very clearly won’t end the war.

I’d be rather more curious to hear what ideas you have to end this senseless conflict that wouldn’t be completely counterproductive to the situation in diplomatic terms… which is what the US is trying to do, end the war diplomatically.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Your reasoning seems quite flawed. While you say you oppose genocide, it feels like you’re making excuses for it. Let’s break down your points.

1-Israel has enough weapons on hand to continue this war without or without US assistance for several years. We can’t end this war with a phone call or it would have been done.

First, it’s important to acknowledge that Israel is currently facing a weapons and munition shortage, which they’ve openly admitted and since have been begging for more.

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/hydupq5pa

2-cutting off funding would push one of our only firm allies in the region over to one of our enemies who would happily fund them(Russia or China comes to mind but their are others who they can go to)

It seems like you’re okay with the ongoing genocide against innocent lives just to keep the U.S.-Israel relationship intact. That raises some serious questions about what’s being prioritized here. Cutting off funding would actually push Israel to negotiate, as they would lack the resources to continue their genocide.

3-cutting off funding would prolong the conflict as it would give time for Hamas and the Palestinian fighters to regroup and rearm and prepare to continue the war. Which in turn makes it even bloodier in the long term.

It feels like you’re more concerned about how long the genocide drags on rather than addressing it. By providing unconditional support, the U.S. is effectively enabling Israel’s aggressive actions against Palestinians, sending a message that human rights violations and war crimes are acceptable.

Moreover, without American backing, Israel would have a greater incentive to negotiate fairly with Palestine. Currently, they have little motivation to compromise, knowing that financial and military support from the U.S. is unwavering. Ending that support would push Israel to confront the consequences of its actions and seek a genuine resolution.

I’d be rather more curious to hear what ideas you have to end this senseless conflict that wouldn’t be completely counterproductive to the situation in diplomatic terms… which is what the US is trying to do, end the war diplomatically.

The only path to lasting peace lies in justice: Israel must end its occupation, withdraw from Palestine, and return the land that has been taken.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

1- in the exact article you posted it said it’s facing arms shortages because we have delayed usually routine shipments for months. Indicating that we have tried messing with their supply… and guess what the article you shared states? They ramped up local production to compensate. Read the articles before link them

2-as stated in your article, Israel is unwilling to negotiate period. We have attempted to play hard ball with their weapons and they ramped up local production. If we continue to play hard ball then the Israelis will seek someone else’s support rather than end the war. This would mean A) the genocide doesn’t stop B) one of the US’ few allies in a critical region will likely now become the ally of one of our enemies and C) America loses out overall for zero gain, including not actually stopping the genocide but instead losing the last of our influence in the country.

3-I’m concerned with ensuring the least chaos and loss of human life. If we cut off support for Israel and they keep going it will lead to the destruction of their country and an even larger genocide than what we are currently seeing. Why come up with a solution that will lead to more warfare overall?

America’s support has not been unconditional. We fund them based on an old treaty which means we also give equal funding to some of their enemies in places like Egypt. This deal exists because Israel was almost wiped out in the past by the countries it is now “oppressing”… I think it’s worth pointing out that pretty much none of these countries recognize Israel as a state because they want it destroyed themselves.

Your solution of splitting Israel into two countries WILL lead to more bloodshed and war. I’m not saying this to be callous or cruel but looking at the situation that’s the way it seems. The Israelis don’t wanna left off their necks because every time they do that they get burned or attacked, the Palestinians hate the Israelis for moving in 70 years ago. It’s an unending cycle of violence.

Replacing Israel with a pro-Hamas Palestinian state is the equivalent of the United States shooting its own toe off for no benefit from a geopolitical standpoint.

-sincerely, just a guy living in the real world rather than a fantasy land where America is a cartoonishly evil villain rather than a complicated imperialistic republic

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Part 1

Once again, your reasoning is deeply flawed, and it seems you're simply making excuses for the ongoing genocide.

1- in the exact article you posted it said it’s facing arms shortages because we have delayed usually routine shipments for months. Indicating that we have tried messing with their supply… and guess what the article you shared states? They ramped up local production to compensate. Read the articles before link them

Let’s talk about Israel boosting local production because of delayed US weapon shipments. clearly, they’re not too reliant on American support, right? Sure, they might be increasing their output, but it’s hardly on par with what the US provides. If the US cut off aid, their military would be in quite a pickle.

And just to clarify your reading skills, the article points out that “those who believe that Israel can produce all the ammunition it needs on its own will be disappointed.” Even with a massive production boost, they’d still rely on imports because, surprise, their production capacity is limited. The article also mentions that while this move might help the Israeli defense industry, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows domestic ammunition is way pricier than what they could import. And let’s not forget how building and maintaining even simple ammunition factories is a costly endeavor. But hey, who needs to read the the facts?

2-as stated in your article, Israel is unwilling to negotiate period. We have attempted to play hard ball with their weapons and they ramped up local production. If we continue to play hard ball then the Israelis will seek someone else’s support rather than end the war. This would mean A) the genocide doesn’t stop B) one of the US’ few allies in a critical region will likely now become the ally of one of our enemies and C) America loses out overall for zero gain, including not actually stopping the genocide but instead losing the last of our influence in the country.

You acknowledge that they're committing genocide but hesitate to stop funding them because they might turn to someone else for support? As I mentioned before, this shows a clear disregard for Palestinian lives. The US is complicit in Israel’s war crimes simply by providing funding and assistance. Right now, the US isn't playing hardball; it's merely offering lip service, enabling Israel to continue its campaign.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/25/blinken-accused-of-lying-to-congress-over-gaza-aid

While it’s true that Israel isn’t interested in negotiations at the moment, that doesn’t mean they won’t be compelled to engage if the pressure is significant enough. America's leverage lies in its financial and military support (which we have established earlier). By cutting off that funding, you would force Israel to either negotiate or face serious consequences on the global stage.

[u/palmugen → u/palmugen]

Part 2

3-I’m concerned with ensuring the least chaos and loss of human life. If we cut off support for Israel and they keep going it will lead to the destruction of their country and an even larger genocide than what we are currently seeing. Why come up with a solution that will lead to more warfare overall?

Once again, you’re demonstrating that you place little value on the lives of Palestinians. Advocating for the rights of Palestinians and addressing the humanitarian crisis does not equate to wanting conflict.

America’s support has not been unconditional. We fund them based on an old treaty which means we also give equal funding to some of their enemies in places like Egypt. This deal exists because Israel was almost wiped out in the past by the countries it is now “oppressing”… I think it’s worth pointing out that pretty much none of these countries recognize Israel as a state because they want it destroyed themselves.

America’s support for Israel is notably unconditional, with requests from Israel consistently met without question. No other nation receives comparable levels of funding. It’s crucial to recognize that Israel's establishment was built on violence and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians. The narrative of a "preemptive strike" often overlooks the context of the conflict, as Israel initiated hostilities against neighboring countries, which were responses to its harsh policies toward Palestinians.

Historical events, such as the horrific massacres at Deir Yassin and the bombing of the King David Hotel, reflect a broader pattern of violence that included the systematic destruction and depopulation of Arab villages. The expulsion of over 70,000 Palestinians from Haifa exemplifies the harsh reality of ethnic cleansing. Plans like Plan Dalet clearly indicate efforts to displace and expropriate Palestinian lands, resulting in the destruction of approximately 531 villages. As David Ben-Gurion noted, the "cleansing of Palestine" was a central objective of this plan.

Your solution of splitting Israel into two countries WILL lead to more bloodshed and war. I’m not saying this to be callous or cruel but looking at the situation that’s the way it seems. The Israelis don’t wanna left off their necks because every time they do that they get burned or attacked, the Palestinians hate the Israelis for moving in 70 years ago. It’s an unending cycle of violence.

There can be no peace without justice. Any group facing oppression will rightfully fight against their tormentors, who are responsible for colonization, occupation, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and land theft. Israel, the colonizer in this equation, lacks any moral or legal right to Palestinian lands, making its existence an obstacle to lasting peace.

Sincerely, a guy who’s actually trying to achieve peace and justice, unlike some people who seem to specialize in making excuses and covering up genocide.

sources:

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" (2004): Morris provides a detailed analysis of the events surrounding Plan Dalet and its impact on Palestinian villages and populations.

Ilan Pappe, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (2006): Pappe's work offers a comprehensive examination of the Zionist policies, including Plan Dalet, and their role in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. He discusses the broader context and consequences of these policies, emphasizing their impact on Palestinian communities.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

And you’re demonstrating that only Palestinian lives matter to you. You could care less if the entire state of Israel was destroyed even if it resulted in the deaths of even more children. You’re advocating for something that can only prolong and worsen the conflict.

We have provided Egypt over 80 billion dollars worth of aid as part of the same treaties that we supply Israel with aid. A deal we made to keep the peace after all of Israel’s neighbors tried to annihilate them.

Furthermore I understand the region’s history is complicated but for someone with as much knowledge as you do to simply paint the one side as the bad guys is baffling to me. You are aware the British were key to the collapse of the Ottomans, they governed Palestine in the aftermath to avoid bloodshed and chaos. In 1936 when the Great Palestinian Revolt occurred, more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than British soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinian Jews were also killed in pogroms. Fast forward past the Second World War and the Holocaust which killed millions of Jews, the British went ahead and gave them their own state in Palestine(a questionable if somewhat understandable idea). As the British withdrew the tensions between Zionists and Palestinians increased until 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from the country(not defending it but I will point out the context of that to a people that just had 6 million of their kind taken to gas chambers they probably didn’t see the forcing out of less than a million as nearly as bad, humans can justify crazy things with that mindset).

In response it turned into civil war and the countries surrounding Israel have conspired to wipe them out since then, like 4 times?

While I understand the point you wanna make about justice(imbalance naturally wants to correct itself) if you have studied history I think you know that not everyone gets justice. Also, the Jews have no right to that land? I mean I’m pretty sure they lived there first if we go far back enough. Saying they have no rights to the lands is almost like saying the native Americans have no rights to America. I’m not even a fan of that justification but to completely ignore it is nonsensical, the Hebrews literally built Jerusalem.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Part 1

And you’re demonstrating that only Palestinian lives matter to you. You could care less if the entire state of Israel was destroyed even if it resulted in the deaths of even more children. You’re advocating for something that can only prolong and worsen the conflict.

All nations have a duty to prevent genocide and apartheid. Right now, Palestinians are enduring genocide. Ending war crimes, massacres, and genocide is crucial and will not lead to increased suffering.

We have provided Egypt over 80 billion dollars worth of aid as part of the same treaties that we supply Israel with aid. A deal we made to keep the peace after all of Israel’s neighbors tried to annihilate them.

Since its peace agreement with Israel in 1979, Egypt has received substantial US aid, totaling around $50 billion to $60 billion. In contrast, Israel has received approximately $250 billion in total aid since 1948. This support includes both military and economic assistance, providing around $146 billion in military aid alone since 1948.

Furthermore I understand the region’s history is complicated but for someone with as much knowledge as you do to simply paint the one side as the bad guys is baffling to me. You are aware the British were key to the collapse of the Ottomans, they governed Palestine in the aftermath to avoid bloodshed and chaos. In 1936 when the Great Palestinian Revolt occurred, more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than British soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinian Jews were also killed in pogroms. Fast forward past the Second World War and the Holocaust which killed millions of Jews, the British went ahead and gave them their own state in Palestine(a questionable if somewhat understandable idea). As the British withdrew the tensions between Zionists and Palestinians increased until 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from the country(not defending it but I will point out the context of that to a people that just had 6 million of their kind taken to gas chambers they probably didn’t see the forcing out of less than a million as nearly as bad, humans can justify crazy things with that mindset).

In response it turned into civil war and the countries surrounding Israel have conspired to wipe them out since then, like 4 times?

The idea of European colonizers establishing a nation-state in Palestine was fundamentally predicated on the expulsion and subjugation of the native Arab population already residing there. The mental gymnastics required to present the Zionist project as anything other than a classic colonial endeavor of foreign settlers displacing the indigenous inhabitants is truly mind-boggling.

The founding figures and influential thinkers of the Zionist movement were remarkably candid about their belief that the realization of a Jewish homeland necessitated the removal of at least some portion of the Palestinian Arab population. Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism, wrote in 1895 of procuring employment for Palestinians in "transit countries" while denying them jobs in the envisioned Jewish state. David Ben-Gurion later advocated for the "compulsory transfer" of Arabs from areas designated for a Jewish state after initially opposing "unilateral transfer." As late as 1941, Yitzhak Greenbaum stated that the establishment of a Jewish state would inevitably require "a transfer of Arabs to one of the neighboring countries."

These were not mere hypothetical musings, but part of the ideological bedrock that guided the Zionist movement's actions on the ground through intimidation, violence and terrorism against the Palestinian population. Groups like the Irgun, Lehi and Haganah perpetrated horrific massacres at sites like Deir Yassin, carried out bombings such as the King David Hotel attack, and systematically depopulated and destroyed entire Arab villages and towns. The expulsion of over 70,000 Palestinians from Haifa alone demonstrated the brutal reality of this ethnic cleansing.

Ultimately, the idea that European colonial settlers could descend on inhabited lands, displace and dispossess the native population through violence, and then cast themselves as the persecuted victims merely defending themselves is utterly abhorrent. The conflict did not result in vacuum, but rather was the inevitable consequence of Zionism's very genesis as a movement to create a Jewish state at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs' existence on their ancestral lands.

[u/palmugen → u/palmugen]

Part 2

While I understand the point you wanna make about justice(imbalance naturally wants to correct itself) if you have studied history I think you know that not everyone gets justice. Also, the Jews have no right to that land? I mean I’m pretty sure they lived there first if we go far back enough. Saying they have no rights to the lands is almost like saying the native Americans have no rights to America. I’m not even a fan of that justification but to completely ignore it is nonsensical, the Hebrews literally built Jerusalem.

If you had read my message carefully, you would have seen that I referred to Zionist colonizers, not Jews. There have always been Palestinian Jews and Jews who oppose Israel. Being a Jew and being a Zionist are not the same. As for ancestry, multiple studies indicate that Palestinians are descendants of various ancient populations, including Jews, in the Levant. There are also many sources that discuss how some Jews converted to Islam and became Palestinians. Furthermore, if we trace history back far enough, Palestinians can be seen as descendants of the Canaanites, who were the original inhabitants of the land long before the emergence of the ancient Israelites.

Sources:

• "Genetic Diversity and Population Structure in Palestinian Arabs":
  • Source: A. M. A. Khatib et al. "Genetic diversity and population structure in Palestinian Arabs: Implications for the history of the region." Human Genetics, 2009.
  • This study analyzes the genetic diversity among Palestinian Arabs and discusses their ancestry, including connections to ancient populations.

• "The Genetic Legacy of the Middle Ages":

  • Source: Elhaik, Eran. "The Genetic Legacy of the Middle Ages: Arab Contributions to Genetic Diversity in the Levant." PLoS ONE, 2012.
  • This paper explores genetic links between modern Palestinians and ancient populations, including Jews, in the Levant.

• "The Jewish Community in the Arab World":

  • Source: Paul A. Ponfick. "The Jewish Community in the Arab World: A Historical Perspective." This text discusses the historical interactions and conversions between Jews and Muslims, particularly during the early Islamic period.

• "The Islamic Conquest of Palestine":

  • Source: Tamer El-Leithy. "The Islamic Conquest of Palestine and the Rise of the Arab Identity." This examines the cultural and religious shifts that occurred during and after the Islamic conquests, including conversion dynamics.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

But either way you cut it Hebrewism and Judaism(Zionism is just an ideology supporting the establishment of a Jewish state) have a longer history in the region than the Islamic groups in the region that are trying to wipe them out.

Both groups have history, it’s a fucked up situation. How about we stop trying to create good guys in a conflict that doesn’t have any?

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

But either way you cut it Hebrewism and Judaism(Zionism is just an ideology supporting the establishment of a Jewish state)

Many Jewish religious authorities and groups have historically opposed this perspective based on deeply held theological beliefs. For instance, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum’s influential work "Vayoel Moshe," published in 1961, provides extensive arguments against Zionism rooted in Talmudic sources and traditional Jewish law.

Groups like Neturei Karta continue this opposition, maintaining archives filled with statements that argue against the concept of a Jewish state before the messianic era. Scholars have documented this religious stance extensively; Samuel Heilman and Menachem Friedman's book, "The Rebbe: The Life and Afterlife of Menachem Mendel Schneerson," explores how major Hasidic movements have historically resisted Zionism.

Additionally, Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky's "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" analyzes anti-Zionist Orthodox groups, shedding light on their beliefs. Contemporary research, such as Naftali Loewenthal's 2014 paper, further explores this phenomenon.

Organizations like True Torah Jews (Natruna) preserve a wealth of rabbinic statements and historical documents, demonstrating a longstanding tradition of religious opposition to Zionism, grounded in interpretations of Jewish law and prophecy. Thus, for many religious Jews, their stance against Zionism is not merely a political issue but one deeply rooted in their religious convictions.

have a longer history in the region than the Islamic groups in the region that are trying to wipe them out.

In my earlier posts, I've explained how Palestinians, as direct descendants of various groups, predate the Israelites. Additionally, Islamic groups have historically supported and protected Jews. Here are a few examples:

1. Omar's Conquest of Jerusalem (637 CE): When Caliph Omar conquered Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire, he issued a document known as the "Covenant of Omar" or "Omar's Assurance." Key points include:

• Jews were returned by Caliph Omar to Jerusalem, from which they had been banned by the Byzantines
• He guaranteed the safety of the city's inhabitants, including Jews and Christians

1. The Golden Age of Jewish Culture in Spain: During Islamic rule in Spain (711-1492), known as "Al-Andalus," Jewish communities experienced significant cultural and economic growth:

• Prominent Jewish figures like Maimonides flourished
• Jews held high positions in courts and contributed to science, philosophy, and literature
• Hebrew poetry experienced a renaissance influenced by Arabic literary traditions

1. Other significant periods:

• In Baghdad, Jews participated actively in intellectual and economic life under the Abbasid Caliphate
• The Cairo Geniza documents show extensive Jewish commercial activity throughout the Islamic world

Both groups have history, it’s a fucked up situation. How about we stop trying to create good guys in a conflict that doesn’t have any?

There is undoubtedly a "good guy" in this conflict. Zionism originated as a movement aimed at establishing a Jewish state, at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs’ existence on their ancestral lands. The Palestinians are simply defending their territory.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Yet you ignore the Palestinian attacks that started this latest round of war. Only condemning the Israelis and showing your agenda.

Your numbers are close but somewhat inaccurate. The point is your statement that we don’t supply other countries besides Israel billions in aid is a lie. We provide them a percentage based directly on what we provide to Israel, this is because they were one of the aggressors in the war that we made that particular treaty after.

You’re also painting this purely as a European colonization thing while ignoring that a majority of the Israelis are descended from Middle Eastern Jews. You’re also ignoring the fact that more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than their European overlords did during their uprising. The region was a vacuum of power after the Ottomans left. I can tell you’re a smart guy but you’re oversimplifying things in a way that I can tell you think there is a justified party in this war… even if that party is also killing kids.

Yet you dare to accuse me of being okay with genocide lmao

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Yet you ignore the Palestinian attacks that started this latest round of war. Only condemning the Israelis and showing your agenda.

Israel has been occupying Gaza, maintaining full control over its land, air, and sea space. No one can move in or out without Israel's approval and the experience of humiliating checkpoints. Israel periodically bombs Gaza every few years, a practice they refer to as "mowing the lawn." I could go on, but I think you understand the situation. Even the International Court of Justice has ruled that Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territories, stating that Israel should withdraw and dismantle the wall and settlements. You're also conflating Hamas and the Palestinians as one entity, which is a common point of Israeli propaganda. However, the UN recognizes that those who are occupied have the right to resist their occupier, even through violent means.

Your numbers are close but somewhat inaccurate. The point is your statement that we don’t supply other countries besides Israel billions in aid is a lie. We provide them a percentage based directly on what we provide to Israel, this is because they were one of the aggressors in the war that we made that particular treaty after.

My statement was very clear: no other nation receives or has received as much aid as Israel. Your attempt to twist what I said suggests either a lack of comprehension or reading skills, or that you're deliberately misrepresenting my words to support your own narrative.

You’re also painting this purely as a European colonization thing while ignoring that a majority of the Israelis are descended from Middle Eastern Jews. You’re also ignoring the fact that more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than their European overlords did during their uprising. The region was a vacuum of power after the Ottomans left. I can tell you’re a smart guy but you’re oversimplifying things in a way that I can tell you think there is a justified party in this war… even if that party is also killing kids.

Yet you dare to accuse me of being okay with genocide lmao

Certainly, there is a justified party in this situation. The Zionists have been determined to eliminate the Palestinians and seize their land. Let’s take a look at some key historical events and statements:

1. Theodor Herzl's "Altneuland" (1902): In his book, Herzl clearly outlined plans for expropriating Palestinian land to establish a Jewish state. He wrote, "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country."
2. David Ben-Gurion's Diary Entry (1937): In this entry, Ben-Gurion explicitly stated his intentions to expel Arabs and take their places. He wrote, "We must expel Arabs and take their places." This statement aligns with the later actions taken during Plan Dalet.
3. Plan Dalet: This plan was a key component of Israel's military strategy. It involved systematically destroying Palestinian villages, forcibly displacing their inhabitants, and annexing land for Israel. Benny Morris, in his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" (2004), provides detailed evidence of the plan's execution and its impact on Palestinian communities.
4. Irgun, Hagana, and the Stern Gang: These Zionist paramilitary organizations engaged in acts of violence and land grabs against Palestinians and British authorities throughout the 1930s and 1940s. For example, the King David Hotel bombing carried out by the Irgun in 1946 killed 91 people, including many civilians.

As you can see, the evidence clearly shows a consistent pattern of Zionist leaders and organizations engaging in actions that directly follows Herzl's vision. From forced displacement to violent land grabs, history is littered with examples of how Israel has been built upon the suffering of Palestinian's.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Hamas is the entity that currently leads the Palestinians in Gaza yeah.

Your statement is painting a false picture of the region. Yes israel receives the most foreign aid from us, but you’re totally ignoring that we also supply several of their enemies with foreign aid as well: Egypt and Jordan being some of the largest examples and the amount is not insignificant.

You’re totally ignoring my larger point of most Zionists being from the Middle East. You’re also ignoring the Great Palestinian Revolt which I keep bringing up. The various Palestinian militia groups killed each other by the thousands, far more than the British killed in putting down the revolt. That’s not to mention the hundreds of Jews they killed as well. This showed the world that the Palestinian people are too fragmented to rule themselves which is why the British turned to the Zionists. And yes their methods were extreme but I also wanna point out that they had JUST gotten through an extremely harsh genocide against them in Europe so comparatively speaking they were pretty tame in just trying to drive them out. In their heads they needed a country and what made the most sense to them at the time was their ancestral homeland.

But no go ahead and keep cherry picking history so you can make your “good side” to stand behind.

[u/Maherjuana → u/Maherjuana]

Aren’t you suspicious that such a complicated issue has such a simple solution? Just have America cut off support and end it. But for arguments sake let’s say that doesn’t work. What was your next plan? Do you have one?

u/palmugen

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Yes, the solution is surprisingly simple. Once the aid is cut, Israel will have to deal with the consequences, as they won’t have the resources to continue their genocide. This will force them to come to the negotiating table. I’ve pointed this out before, but it seems you’re either unwilling to accept it or just not getting it.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Right I’m saying aside from cutting aid which I have already pointed out that I’m not nearly as convinced as you are of the efficacy. You are glossing over several things in your argument that the United States’ aid is the only thing keeping this conflict going(while linking articles that say the United States has withheld aid for several months and the Israelis began opening weapons factories in response lol). So for arguments sake do you have any other way to fix this complicated issue other than an overly simplistic plan that has no guarantee of working and might have dire ramifications for the entire region?

So again, do you have another plan or do you only have one solution in that big old brain of yours.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

I’ve already shown that cutting aid will not only halt their actions but that we have precedent for this happening in the past. The US can cut aid, and all other nations are also obligated to cut aid, boycott and impose sanctions on Israel again, we have precedent for this, as seen in South Africa. I’ve offered multiple solutions, evidence, and articles, while your stance has simply been, "Let them continue their genocide; it’s in the world's best interest."

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

You completely ignored my third point which is the largest point. You seem to only care about the Palestinian lives and damn the consequences. If we cut off support and Israel collapses and even more civilians are killed as a result are you gonna be okay with that because they’re not Palestinians anymore? Iran is currently preparing a ballistic missile strike against Israel.

My reading comprehension is fine. We delayed multiple shipments and they ramped up local production. You’re saying we should cut it off completely but also disregarding the possibility of them going elsewhere for their weapons. You don’t even seem to care about stopping the genocide, just making sure America’s conscience is clean at the cost of any influence or involvement in the region, this would ultimately cost America on the world stage and again IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT STOP THE GENOCIDE IN THE SHORT TERM. Maybe in 8 or 9 months when they really start hurting for munitions IF they don’t go elsewhere for them.

My overall point is America can not stop the war tomorrow by cutting off support, it would atleast take several months since we have already tried to delay their munitions(which your own article pointed out has caused the shortages in weapons). And it’s still not a sure fire guaranteed thing.

Bottom line doing something like cutting off support without guarantees of the conflict ending could end up being a disaster that kills thousands more and destabilizes the entire region even further.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

You completely ignored my third point which is the largest point. You seem to only care about the Palestinian lives and damn the consequences. If we cut off support and Israel collapses and even more civilians are killed as a result are you gonna be okay with that because they’re not Palestinians anymore? Iran is currently preparing a ballistic missile strike against Israel.

I didn't overlook your third point; you can find my response in part 2 of my comment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1ftanhw/comment/lpto3zf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I would also like to remind you that it is illegal to provide arms and support to genocidal entities and systems of apartheid. The International Court of Justice has recently ruled on this matter regarding Israel, and all nations have a responsibility to prevent genocide and apartheid. Additionally, Iran has stated that it will not strike or retaliate if Israel agrees to a ceasefire.

My reading comprehension is fine. We delayed multiple shipments and they ramped up local production. You’re saying we should cut it off completely but also disregarding the possibility of them going elsewhere for their weapons. You don’t even seem to care about stopping the genocide, just making sure America’s conscience is clean at the cost of any influence or involvement in the region, this would ultimately cost America on the world stage and again IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT STOP THE GENOCIDE IN THE SHORT TERM. Maybe in 8 or 9 months when they really start hurting for munitions IF they don’t go elsewhere for them.

Your reading comprehension seems to be lacking if you couldn't see in the article that they cannot produce their own munitions and will still need to import them. The likelihood of Israel sourcing arms from elsewhere is very slim, as the US is the largest supplier, providing approximately 70-80% of Israel's arms imports. European countries contribute around 10-20%, with key suppliers being Germany, Italy, and the UK. Europe currently lacks the capacity to increase production to meet demand or replace the US as a supplier. Furthermore, China and Russia are unlikely to arm Israel, as they prioritize stability in the Middle East and seek to improve relations with Arab nations, complicating the situation given Israel's alliance with the US Not to mention, if the US were to stop arming Israel, it would put pressure on other nations to do the same.

My overall point is America can not stop the war tomorrow by cutting off support, it would atleast take several months since we have already tried to delay their munitions(which your own article pointed out has caused the shortages in weapons). And it’s still not a sure fire guaranteed thing.

Bottom line doing something like cutting off support without guarantees of the conflict ending could end up being a disaster that kills thousands more and destabilizes the entire region even further.

America has the ability to stop the genocide but is choosing not to. We have precedent for this. Reagan and his administration exerted diplomatic pressure on Israel to end the war and pursue a ceasefire, particularly given the significant civilian casualties resulting from the conflict.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Just saw it and replied to it

Iran was behind the October 7th attack that started this. Evidenced by the various arms of extremist organizations they have very quickly striking in aid as well as the motives to break down negotiations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. The Iranians got what they wanted and now they don’t want their militants in Gaza to be destroyed.

You’re missing the point behind the significance of them building those factories. You yourself pointed out that those are not cheap, they are long term investments to move away from dependency on the US. You also underestimate how much Russia or China would want Israel as an ally. China aims to rebuild the Silk Road and it will have to pass through Israel, furthermore taking one of America’s chief allies away from them in such a critical location outweighs any of those other considerations you mentioned if you truly understand the geopolitical desires of those countries.

The conflict Reagan stopped was not preceded by a massacre of several hundred Israeli civilians in the streets. The Israeli citizens back in Reagan’s day did not have access to high definition footage of Palestinians marching naked dead teenage girls that they killed at a music festival.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Iran was behind the October 7th attack that started this. Evidenced by the various arms of extremist organizations they have very quickly striking in aid as well as the motives to break down negotiations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. The Iranians got what they wanted and now they don’t want their militants in Gaza to be destroyed.

Do you have any evidence to support that, or are you just repeating propaganda points without backing them up?

You’re missing the point behind the significance of them building those factories. You yourself pointed out that those are not cheap, they are long term investments to move away from dependency on the US. You also underestimate how much Russia or China would want Israel as an ally. China aims to rebuild the Silk Road and it will have to pass through Israel, furthermore taking one of America’s chief allies away from them in such a critical location outweighs any of those other considerations you mentioned if you truly understand the geopolitical desires of those countries.

Since this is a long term investment, it means they lack the resources to sustain their current genocide, which would again push them to the negotiating table, ultimately leading to a long term peace agreement. Unless you're willing to acknowledge that Israel is a genocidal entity intent on wiping out the Palestinians and that this will continue after 20 to 30 years, I believe they are, but are you ready to concede that point? Additionally, when it comes to Russia and China, I think they'd prefer to engage with a Palestinian state to meet their economic goals. This would only enhance their standing with Arab nations and also help establish a Palestinian state, especially since they know they cannot fully trust Israel.

The conflict Reagan stopped was not preceded by a massacre of several hundred Israeli civilians in the streets. The Israeli citizens back in Reagan’s day did not have access to high definition footage of Palestinians marching naked dead teenage girls that they killed at a music festival.

Ah, back to the propaganda talking points. Regarding the events of October 7, it's crucial to note that not everyone who died was a civilian; some were combatants. Furthermore, there are reports indicating that Israeli forces have also killed their own civilians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/another-israeli-witness-confirms-israeli-tanks-killed-own-citizens-on-oct-7/3079514

https://www.blackagendareport.com/shielding-us-public-israeli-reports-friendly-fire-october-7

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

Finally, Israeli sources lack credibility. The Israeli government has a history of spreading misinformation and propaganda, as seen in their handling of cases such as the rape allegations and the supposed beheading of babies. Given this track record of deceit, we should not rely on government statements.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of signing a historic deal that would have acknowledged Israel as a country from the pov of the Saudis. This is a deal that is unacceptable to Iran. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, are all supplied by Iran. They all attacked on or around October 7th and the ensuing fallout killed the deal. So yeah I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to put those together. If you don’t believe me go look into the negotiations between the Saudis and Israelis that broke down.

Concede what point? That Israel is the bad guy? Yeah they are. Are you gonna admit that Hamas and the Palestinians have also committed vile acts and their goals would plunge the region into violent chaos? No? Because you’re picking a side.

You’re also displaying a lack of understanding in China and Russia’s relationships with the Middle East. Russia had a failed invasion into the Middle East that kicked off a lot of these problematic insurgencies we see today. China has notoriously been committing a “light genocide” on the Muslim Uighurs within their country. The Arab countries they do maintain good relations with are more in a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” type deal.

Both of these countries would absolutely LEAP at the opportunity to take away one of America’s most firm allies in the region and make them their own… besides the questions that would arise over who would rule in a hypothetical Palestinian state would likely destabilize the region which is the opposite of what these countries want.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of signing a historic deal that would have acknowledged Israel as a country from the pov of the Saudis. This is a deal that is unacceptable to Iran. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, are all supplied by Iran. They all attacked on or around October 7th and the ensuing fallout killed the deal. So yeah I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to put those together. If you don’t believe me go look into the negotiations between the Saudis and Israelis that broke down.

So, you’re repeating Israeli propaganda points without any evidence to back them up.

Concede what point? That Israel is the bad guy? Yeah they are. Are you gonna admit that Hamas and the Palestinians have also committed vile acts and their goals would plunge the region into violent chaos? No? Because you’re picking a side.

Of course I chose a side I've chosen the side against genocide. It’s not difficult to be a decent human being and say that we must stop the genocide now.

You’re also displaying a lack of understanding in China and Russia’s relationships with the Middle East. Russia had a failed invasion into the Middle East that kicked off a lot of these problematic insurgencies we see today. China has notoriously been committing a “light genocide” on the Muslim Uighurs within their country. The Arab countries they do maintain good relations with are more in a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” type deal.

Both of these countries would absolutely LEAP at the opportunity to take away one of America’s most firm allies in the region and make them their own… besides the questions that would arise over who would rule in a hypothetical Palestinian state would likely destabilize the region which is the opposite of what these countries want.

You’re underestimating how much these two countries want to enhance their standing with Arab nations, which is evident in their efforts to establish a Palestinian state.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Okay so out of several hundred people that died you’re gonna point to a handful of incidents(that add up to maybe two dozen) and extrapolate that to hundreds of Israelis were killed by the IDF.

In the same way that the western media is normalizing the genocide of Gaza by the Israelis you’re trying to downplay the very real evils of Hamas and the Palestinian fighters that Israel is arrayed against.

Both sides are bad, it’s war. Stop trying to turn it into Star Wars with plucky rebels to root for.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

We have already established that Israel lacks credibility and, therefore, should not be trusted. Multiple Israeli eyewitnesses and military sources have confirmed that Israel issued a mass order to kill its own civilians, which the government attempted to spin as Hamas being responsible for the deaths. Do we know the actual number? No, because Israel is blocking any independent investigation into the situation. Initially, the number was reported as around 1,500 but later decreased to about 1,200, as many were so severely burned they could not be identified and were assumed to be Israeli. Do you think Hamas would burn 300 of their own fighters? And guess who else has similar burn injuries? Yes, Israelis.

Both sides are bad, it’s war. Stop trying to turn it into Star Wars with plucky rebels to root for.

There is a group that is defending their land and another that is a genocidal entity intent on eliminating the Palestinians and carrying out ethnic cleansing. The statements from Israeli leaders make their intentions to exterminate Palestinians unequivocally clear.

“There are no innocent civilians in Gaza. It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.” Isaac Herzog, President of Israel

“We will turn Gaza into a deserted island.” Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel

“Nobody will let us cause 2 million civilians to die of hunger even though it might be justified and moral” Bezalel Smotrich, Israeli Finance Minister

“Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating the way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated.” Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education

“There are no half measures. Rafah, Deir al-Balah, Nuseirat — total annihilation.” Bezalel Smotrich, Israeli Finance Minister

“We cannot have women and children getting close to the border... anyone who gets near must get a bullet [in the head].” Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israeli Minister of National Security* [*previously convicted of inciting racism and charged with terror offences]

“One of the options is to drop an atomic bomb on Gaza.” Amichai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage

“Bring down buildings. Bomb without distinction. Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy. Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!” Revital Gottlieb, member of the Knesset (Israeli parliament)

“Voluntary migration. Our problem is the countries that are willing to absorb (them), and we are working on it.” Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel

“We will turn you into ruined towns as we are doing now in the Gaza strip.” Bezalel Smotrich, Israeli Finance Minister, threatening the Gaza Strip.

“The whole Gaza Strip needs to be empty. Flattened. Just like in Auschwitz.” David Azoulai, Mayor of Metula

“The US is not threatening to give us precise missiles. So, maybe instead of using a precise missile and take down a specific room, or a specific building, I’ll use my imprecise missiles, and I’ll just destroy ten buildings. That’s what I’ll do.” Tally Gotlive, member of the Knesset

Israel's actions clearly demonstrate their intention to commit genocide against Palestinians. From using them as human shields to deliberately targeting civilians and babies, they have gone to great lengths to inflict suffering and death upon the Palestinian people.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/13/middleeast/israel-strike-gaza-twins-intl-latam/index.html

https://archive.ph/knGgW

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-human-shields