Why America is looking increasingly powerless as Israel’s war expands - The pattern of American impotency and Israeli defiance has played repeatedly since October 7

[u/Horus_walking]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/30/politics/america-israel-lebanon-war-analysis/index.html

[u/justwantanaccount]

The country that spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined? Constantly sending tens of billions of dollars of weapons to Israel? That doesn't need Congressional approval, that only requires the President to send/stop it? That constantly provides Israel diplomatic cover for their genocide, that installed pro-Israel dictators in the region, that rulers in the region don't want to fight back Israel too much because they know the US will join the fight if they do?

Powerless??? Did the author of the article lose their brain or something???

[u/Maherjuana → u/justwantanaccount]

So America should cut off funding to Israel… but they already have enough weapons to complete the genocide so that plan wouldn’t really do anything but alienate Israel from America.

It’s interesting but I really don’t think anyone in this thread has a decent grasp on world geopolitics and realities.

America can’t stop Israel short of actively using weapons against them. Hamas is not our ally and will not thank us in any meaningful way for this. It would save many innocent lives in the short term while setting the region up for an even larger conflict down the line… or it would be exactly the push to make the genocide occurring in Gaza look small by comparison.

There are a lot of consequences to consider towards any plan of action.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Let me get this straight. You are ok with the genocide happening because

1 - it would alienate Israel 2 - Hamas wont thank the US 3 - because oh so moral and oh so honest Israel says if they do not genocide the Palestinians there will be a larger conflict?

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

No im not okay with genocide happening im just pointing out that people are really dense if they think its as simple as “US cuts funding for war and peace ensues”

1-Israel has enough weapons on hand to continue this war without or without US assistance for several years. We can’t end this war with a phone call or it would have been done.

2-cutting off funding would push one of our only firm allies in the region over to one of our enemies who would happily fund them(Russia or China comes to mind but their are others who they can go to)

3-cutting off funding would prolong the conflict as it would give time for Hamas and the Palestinian fighters to regroup and rearm and prepare to continue the war. Which in turn makes it even bloodier in the long term.

The only way to truly make the war end tmmrw would be for America to send soldiers into Israel and make it stop… which would be an absolute bloodbath leaving thousands for dead.

So while I’m not okay with genocide I think its bs to make nonsense statements like “America needs to cut funding to Israel and end this war” when that very clearly won’t end the war.

I’d be rather more curious to hear what ideas you have to end this senseless conflict that wouldn’t be completely counterproductive to the situation in diplomatic terms… which is what the US is trying to do, end the war diplomatically.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Your reasoning seems quite flawed. While you say you oppose genocide, it feels like you’re making excuses for it. Let’s break down your points.

1-Israel has enough weapons on hand to continue this war without or without US assistance for several years. We can’t end this war with a phone call or it would have been done.

First, it’s important to acknowledge that Israel is currently facing a weapons and munition shortage, which they’ve openly admitted and since have been begging for more.

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/hydupq5pa

2-cutting off funding would push one of our only firm allies in the region over to one of our enemies who would happily fund them(Russia or China comes to mind but their are others who they can go to)

It seems like you’re okay with the ongoing genocide against innocent lives just to keep the U.S.-Israel relationship intact. That raises some serious questions about what’s being prioritized here. Cutting off funding would actually push Israel to negotiate, as they would lack the resources to continue their genocide.

3-cutting off funding would prolong the conflict as it would give time for Hamas and the Palestinian fighters to regroup and rearm and prepare to continue the war. Which in turn makes it even bloodier in the long term.

It feels like you’re more concerned about how long the genocide drags on rather than addressing it. By providing unconditional support, the U.S. is effectively enabling Israel’s aggressive actions against Palestinians, sending a message that human rights violations and war crimes are acceptable.

Moreover, without American backing, Israel would have a greater incentive to negotiate fairly with Palestine. Currently, they have little motivation to compromise, knowing that financial and military support from the U.S. is unwavering. Ending that support would push Israel to confront the consequences of its actions and seek a genuine resolution.

I’d be rather more curious to hear what ideas you have to end this senseless conflict that wouldn’t be completely counterproductive to the situation in diplomatic terms… which is what the US is trying to do, end the war diplomatically.

The only path to lasting peace lies in justice: Israel must end its occupation, withdraw from Palestine, and return the land that has been taken.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

1- in the exact article you posted it said it’s facing arms shortages because we have delayed usually routine shipments for months. Indicating that we have tried messing with their supply… and guess what the article you shared states? They ramped up local production to compensate. Read the articles before link them

2-as stated in your article, Israel is unwilling to negotiate period. We have attempted to play hard ball with their weapons and they ramped up local production. If we continue to play hard ball then the Israelis will seek someone else’s support rather than end the war. This would mean A) the genocide doesn’t stop B) one of the US’ few allies in a critical region will likely now become the ally of one of our enemies and C) America loses out overall for zero gain, including not actually stopping the genocide but instead losing the last of our influence in the country.

3-I’m concerned with ensuring the least chaos and loss of human life. If we cut off support for Israel and they keep going it will lead to the destruction of their country and an even larger genocide than what we are currently seeing. Why come up with a solution that will lead to more warfare overall?

America’s support has not been unconditional. We fund them based on an old treaty which means we also give equal funding to some of their enemies in places like Egypt. This deal exists because Israel was almost wiped out in the past by the countries it is now “oppressing”… I think it’s worth pointing out that pretty much none of these countries recognize Israel as a state because they want it destroyed themselves.

Your solution of splitting Israel into two countries WILL lead to more bloodshed and war. I’m not saying this to be callous or cruel but looking at the situation that’s the way it seems. The Israelis don’t wanna left off their necks because every time they do that they get burned or attacked, the Palestinians hate the Israelis for moving in 70 years ago. It’s an unending cycle of violence.

Replacing Israel with a pro-Hamas Palestinian state is the equivalent of the United States shooting its own toe off for no benefit from a geopolitical standpoint.

-sincerely, just a guy living in the real world rather than a fantasy land where America is a cartoonishly evil villain rather than a complicated imperialistic republic

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Part 1

Once again, your reasoning is deeply flawed, and it seems you're simply making excuses for the ongoing genocide.

1- in the exact article you posted it said it’s facing arms shortages because we have delayed usually routine shipments for months. Indicating that we have tried messing with their supply… and guess what the article you shared states? They ramped up local production to compensate. Read the articles before link them

Let’s talk about Israel boosting local production because of delayed US weapon shipments. clearly, they’re not too reliant on American support, right? Sure, they might be increasing their output, but it’s hardly on par with what the US provides. If the US cut off aid, their military would be in quite a pickle.

And just to clarify your reading skills, the article points out that “those who believe that Israel can produce all the ammunition it needs on its own will be disappointed.” Even with a massive production boost, they’d still rely on imports because, surprise, their production capacity is limited. The article also mentions that while this move might help the Israeli defense industry, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows domestic ammunition is way pricier than what they could import. And let’s not forget how building and maintaining even simple ammunition factories is a costly endeavor. But hey, who needs to read the the facts?

2-as stated in your article, Israel is unwilling to negotiate period. We have attempted to play hard ball with their weapons and they ramped up local production. If we continue to play hard ball then the Israelis will seek someone else’s support rather than end the war. This would mean A) the genocide doesn’t stop B) one of the US’ few allies in a critical region will likely now become the ally of one of our enemies and C) America loses out overall for zero gain, including not actually stopping the genocide but instead losing the last of our influence in the country.

You acknowledge that they're committing genocide but hesitate to stop funding them because they might turn to someone else for support? As I mentioned before, this shows a clear disregard for Palestinian lives. The US is complicit in Israel’s war crimes simply by providing funding and assistance. Right now, the US isn't playing hardball; it's merely offering lip service, enabling Israel to continue its campaign.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/25/blinken-accused-of-lying-to-congress-over-gaza-aid

While it’s true that Israel isn’t interested in negotiations at the moment, that doesn’t mean they won’t be compelled to engage if the pressure is significant enough. America's leverage lies in its financial and military support (which we have established earlier). By cutting off that funding, you would force Israel to either negotiate or face serious consequences on the global stage.

[u/palmugen → u/palmugen]

Part 2

3-I’m concerned with ensuring the least chaos and loss of human life. If we cut off support for Israel and they keep going it will lead to the destruction of their country and an even larger genocide than what we are currently seeing. Why come up with a solution that will lead to more warfare overall?

Once again, you’re demonstrating that you place little value on the lives of Palestinians. Advocating for the rights of Palestinians and addressing the humanitarian crisis does not equate to wanting conflict.

America’s support has not been unconditional. We fund them based on an old treaty which means we also give equal funding to some of their enemies in places like Egypt. This deal exists because Israel was almost wiped out in the past by the countries it is now “oppressing”… I think it’s worth pointing out that pretty much none of these countries recognize Israel as a state because they want it destroyed themselves.

America’s support for Israel is notably unconditional, with requests from Israel consistently met without question. No other nation receives comparable levels of funding. It’s crucial to recognize that Israel's establishment was built on violence and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians. The narrative of a "preemptive strike" often overlooks the context of the conflict, as Israel initiated hostilities against neighboring countries, which were responses to its harsh policies toward Palestinians.

Historical events, such as the horrific massacres at Deir Yassin and the bombing of the King David Hotel, reflect a broader pattern of violence that included the systematic destruction and depopulation of Arab villages. The expulsion of over 70,000 Palestinians from Haifa exemplifies the harsh reality of ethnic cleansing. Plans like Plan Dalet clearly indicate efforts to displace and expropriate Palestinian lands, resulting in the destruction of approximately 531 villages. As David Ben-Gurion noted, the "cleansing of Palestine" was a central objective of this plan.

Your solution of splitting Israel into two countries WILL lead to more bloodshed and war. I’m not saying this to be callous or cruel but looking at the situation that’s the way it seems. The Israelis don’t wanna left off their necks because every time they do that they get burned or attacked, the Palestinians hate the Israelis for moving in 70 years ago. It’s an unending cycle of violence.

There can be no peace without justice. Any group facing oppression will rightfully fight against their tormentors, who are responsible for colonization, occupation, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and land theft. Israel, the colonizer in this equation, lacks any moral or legal right to Palestinian lands, making its existence an obstacle to lasting peace.

Sincerely, a guy who’s actually trying to achieve peace and justice, unlike some people who seem to specialize in making excuses and covering up genocide.

sources:

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" (2004): Morris provides a detailed analysis of the events surrounding Plan Dalet and its impact on Palestinian villages and populations.

Ilan Pappe, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (2006): Pappe's work offers a comprehensive examination of the Zionist policies, including Plan Dalet, and their role in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. He discusses the broader context and consequences of these policies, emphasizing their impact on Palestinian communities.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

And you’re demonstrating that only Palestinian lives matter to you. You could care less if the entire state of Israel was destroyed even if it resulted in the deaths of even more children. You’re advocating for something that can only prolong and worsen the conflict.

We have provided Egypt over 80 billion dollars worth of aid as part of the same treaties that we supply Israel with aid. A deal we made to keep the peace after all of Israel’s neighbors tried to annihilate them.

Furthermore I understand the region’s history is complicated but for someone with as much knowledge as you do to simply paint the one side as the bad guys is baffling to me. You are aware the British were key to the collapse of the Ottomans, they governed Palestine in the aftermath to avoid bloodshed and chaos. In 1936 when the Great Palestinian Revolt occurred, more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than British soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinian Jews were also killed in pogroms. Fast forward past the Second World War and the Holocaust which killed millions of Jews, the British went ahead and gave them their own state in Palestine(a questionable if somewhat understandable idea). As the British withdrew the tensions between Zionists and Palestinians increased until 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from the country(not defending it but I will point out the context of that to a people that just had 6 million of their kind taken to gas chambers they probably didn’t see the forcing out of less than a million as nearly as bad, humans can justify crazy things with that mindset).

In response it turned into civil war and the countries surrounding Israel have conspired to wipe them out since then, like 4 times?

While I understand the point you wanna make about justice(imbalance naturally wants to correct itself) if you have studied history I think you know that not everyone gets justice. Also, the Jews have no right to that land? I mean I’m pretty sure they lived there first if we go far back enough. Saying they have no rights to the lands is almost like saying the native Americans have no rights to America. I’m not even a fan of that justification but to completely ignore it is nonsensical, the Hebrews literally built Jerusalem.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

Part 1

And you’re demonstrating that only Palestinian lives matter to you. You could care less if the entire state of Israel was destroyed even if it resulted in the deaths of even more children. You’re advocating for something that can only prolong and worsen the conflict.

All nations have a duty to prevent genocide and apartheid. Right now, Palestinians are enduring genocide. Ending war crimes, massacres, and genocide is crucial and will not lead to increased suffering.

We have provided Egypt over 80 billion dollars worth of aid as part of the same treaties that we supply Israel with aid. A deal we made to keep the peace after all of Israel’s neighbors tried to annihilate them.

Since its peace agreement with Israel in 1979, Egypt has received substantial US aid, totaling around $50 billion to $60 billion. In contrast, Israel has received approximately $250 billion in total aid since 1948. This support includes both military and economic assistance, providing around $146 billion in military aid alone since 1948.

Furthermore I understand the region’s history is complicated but for someone with as much knowledge as you do to simply paint the one side as the bad guys is baffling to me. You are aware the British were key to the collapse of the Ottomans, they governed Palestine in the aftermath to avoid bloodshed and chaos. In 1936 when the Great Palestinian Revolt occurred, more Palestinians killed other Palestinians than British soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinian Jews were also killed in pogroms. Fast forward past the Second World War and the Holocaust which killed millions of Jews, the British went ahead and gave them their own state in Palestine(a questionable if somewhat understandable idea). As the British withdrew the tensions between Zionists and Palestinians increased until 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from the country(not defending it but I will point out the context of that to a people that just had 6 million of their kind taken to gas chambers they probably didn’t see the forcing out of less than a million as nearly as bad, humans can justify crazy things with that mindset).

In response it turned into civil war and the countries surrounding Israel have conspired to wipe them out since then, like 4 times?

The idea of European colonizers establishing a nation-state in Palestine was fundamentally predicated on the expulsion and subjugation of the native Arab population already residing there. The mental gymnastics required to present the Zionist project as anything other than a classic colonial endeavor of foreign settlers displacing the indigenous inhabitants is truly mind-boggling.

The founding figures and influential thinkers of the Zionist movement were remarkably candid about their belief that the realization of a Jewish homeland necessitated the removal of at least some portion of the Palestinian Arab population. Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism, wrote in 1895 of procuring employment for Palestinians in "transit countries" while denying them jobs in the envisioned Jewish state. David Ben-Gurion later advocated for the "compulsory transfer" of Arabs from areas designated for a Jewish state after initially opposing "unilateral transfer." As late as 1941, Yitzhak Greenbaum stated that the establishment of a Jewish state would inevitably require "a transfer of Arabs to one of the neighboring countries."

These were not mere hypothetical musings, but part of the ideological bedrock that guided the Zionist movement's actions on the ground through intimidation, violence and terrorism against the Palestinian population. Groups like the Irgun, Lehi and Haganah perpetrated horrific massacres at sites like Deir Yassin, carried out bombings such as the King David Hotel attack, and systematically depopulated and destroyed entire Arab villages and towns. The expulsion of over 70,000 Palestinians from Haifa alone demonstrated the brutal reality of this ethnic cleansing.

Ultimately, the idea that European colonial settlers could descend on inhabited lands, displace and dispossess the native population through violence, and then cast themselves as the persecuted victims merely defending themselves is utterly abhorrent. The conflict did not result in vacuum, but rather was the inevitable consequence of Zionism's very genesis as a movement to create a Jewish state at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs' existence on their ancestral lands.

[u/Maherjuana → u/Maherjuana]

Aren’t you suspicious that such a complicated issue has such a simple solution? Just have America cut off support and end it. But for arguments sake let’s say that doesn’t work. What was your next plan? Do you have one?

u/palmugen

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

You completely ignored my third point which is the largest point. You seem to only care about the Palestinian lives and damn the consequences. If we cut off support and Israel collapses and even more civilians are killed as a result are you gonna be okay with that because they’re not Palestinians anymore? Iran is currently preparing a ballistic missile strike against Israel.

My reading comprehension is fine. We delayed multiple shipments and they ramped up local production. You’re saying we should cut it off completely but also disregarding the possibility of them going elsewhere for their weapons. You don’t even seem to care about stopping the genocide, just making sure America’s conscience is clean at the cost of any influence or involvement in the region, this would ultimately cost America on the world stage and again IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT STOP THE GENOCIDE IN THE SHORT TERM. Maybe in 8 or 9 months when they really start hurting for munitions IF they don’t go elsewhere for them.

My overall point is America can not stop the war tomorrow by cutting off support, it would atleast take several months since we have already tried to delay their munitions(which your own article pointed out has caused the shortages in weapons). And it’s still not a sure fire guaranteed thing.

Bottom line doing something like cutting off support without guarantees of the conflict ending could end up being a disaster that kills thousands more and destabilizes the entire region even further.

[u/palmugen → u/Maherjuana]

You completely ignored my third point which is the largest point. You seem to only care about the Palestinian lives and damn the consequences. If we cut off support and Israel collapses and even more civilians are killed as a result are you gonna be okay with that because they’re not Palestinians anymore? Iran is currently preparing a ballistic missile strike against Israel.

I didn't overlook your third point; you can find my response in part 2 of my comment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1ftanhw/comment/lpto3zf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I would also like to remind you that it is illegal to provide arms and support to genocidal entities and systems of apartheid. The International Court of Justice has recently ruled on this matter regarding Israel, and all nations have a responsibility to prevent genocide and apartheid. Additionally, Iran has stated that it will not strike or retaliate if Israel agrees to a ceasefire.

My reading comprehension is fine. We delayed multiple shipments and they ramped up local production. You’re saying we should cut it off completely but also disregarding the possibility of them going elsewhere for their weapons. You don’t even seem to care about stopping the genocide, just making sure America’s conscience is clean at the cost of any influence or involvement in the region, this would ultimately cost America on the world stage and again IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT STOP THE GENOCIDE IN THE SHORT TERM. Maybe in 8 or 9 months when they really start hurting for munitions IF they don’t go elsewhere for them.

Your reading comprehension seems to be lacking if you couldn't see in the article that they cannot produce their own munitions and will still need to import them. The likelihood of Israel sourcing arms from elsewhere is very slim, as the US is the largest supplier, providing approximately 70-80% of Israel's arms imports. European countries contribute around 10-20%, with key suppliers being Germany, Italy, and the UK. Europe currently lacks the capacity to increase production to meet demand or replace the US as a supplier. Furthermore, China and Russia are unlikely to arm Israel, as they prioritize stability in the Middle East and seek to improve relations with Arab nations, complicating the situation given Israel's alliance with the US Not to mention, if the US were to stop arming Israel, it would put pressure on other nations to do the same.

My overall point is America can not stop the war tomorrow by cutting off support, it would atleast take several months since we have already tried to delay their munitions(which your own article pointed out has caused the shortages in weapons). And it’s still not a sure fire guaranteed thing.

Bottom line doing something like cutting off support without guarantees of the conflict ending could end up being a disaster that kills thousands more and destabilizes the entire region even further.

America has the ability to stop the genocide but is choosing not to. We have precedent for this. Reagan and his administration exerted diplomatic pressure on Israel to end the war and pursue a ceasefire, particularly given the significant civilian casualties resulting from the conflict.

[u/Maherjuana → u/palmugen]

Just saw it and replied to it

Iran was behind the October 7th attack that started this. Evidenced by the various arms of extremist organizations they have very quickly striking in aid as well as the motives to break down negotiations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. The Iranians got what they wanted and now they don’t want their militants in Gaza to be destroyed.

You’re missing the point behind the significance of them building those factories. You yourself pointed out that those are not cheap, they are long term investments to move away from dependency on the US. You also underestimate how much Russia or China would want Israel as an ally. China aims to rebuild the Silk Road and it will have to pass through Israel, furthermore taking one of America’s chief allies away from them in such a critical location outweighs any of those other considerations you mentioned if you truly understand the geopolitical desires of those countries.

The conflict Reagan stopped was not preceded by a massacre of several hundred Israeli civilians in the streets. The Israeli citizens back in Reagan’s day did not have access to high definition footage of Palestinians marching naked dead teenage girls that they killed at a music festival.

[u/InternationalNews-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/justwantanaccount → u/Maherjuana]

The conflicts in the region are caused by Israel a lot of times in the first place. Hamas and Hezbollah came about to fight back against US-backed Israel's cruel occupation in Gaza (no just withdrawing troops and settlers in 2005 don't count) and Southern Lebanon in the first place. Hamas and Hezbollah are not popular on their domestic issues, they're only supported as the ones who will actually fight back against US-backed Israel.

EDIT: Also 57 Arab countries just offered peace for truly ending occupation of Palestine and recognizing Palestine as an independent state. Many Arab people express online that they're mad at the US government, not the people in the US because they see people protesting for Palestine. Are you sure you understand the geopolitics in the region?

[u/Maherjuana → u/justwantanaccount]

Sure and places like Gaza only exist because the region tried to come together and wipe out Israel in the Yom Kippur War and the Arab-Israeli war. It goes back, neither side can claim the high moral ground in the overall conflict.

I understand that the people of Palestine and Lebanon only support organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah out of desperation but it still doesn’t change the fact that these are terrorists organizations that would enact a hundred October 7th attacks on their enemies. They killed children, they are not some freedom fighters. They are men angry who want revenge.

[u/justwantanaccount → u/Maherjuana]

Those wars were all caused by the Nakba. So many civilians and children were harmed by Zionist militants, they're the original terrorists who kick started the whole conflict in the region.

Most countries in the world don't recognize Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups. They kill a lot less children than the IDF, they target civilians a lot less than the IDF. Hundreds killed on Oct 7 were by the IDF, IDF refuses to investigate the event. The US and Israel left no choice but military retaliation, whatever peaceful methods tried were constantly shut down by Israel/US and accused of being terrorists despite protesting peacefully.

[u/Maherjuana → u/justwantanaccount]

So let’s get it straight.

The British offer Palestine to the Jews following the events of the Second World War and the holocaust(since Palestine was being run by the British). They allow the Jews to form the nation state of Israel while they withdraw.

The Israelis expel 750,000 people from the region as part of their efforts of colonizing and state building(keep in mind this is three years after 6 million Jews were wiped out, so displacing 750,000 might not have seemed as big of a deal to them). This leads directly into armed conflict that continues to escalate to this day with neither side wanting peace.

You’re saying that since the Jews initially displaced people that all of the multiple wars of extermination against them are justified? That’s almost the same rationality for the Israeli genocide in Gaza, so are we saying genocide is only okay if you are the first people from that given region?

Most first world western countries recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization and they utilize terror tactics like the ones performed on October 7th.

Furthermore stop spreading lies about October 7th, Hamas are not some morally upright freedom fighters. I saw the videos, they gunned down innocent people and kids. They paraded the bodies in the streets, you can find the videos for yourself still. There is no evidence that the IDF killed hundreds of their own civilians on October 7th, that’s a conspiracy theory on par with “9/11 was an inside job”. The people who believe these things don’t understand the logistics of lies and don’t live in the real world.

Just like in all wars, both sides are monstrous.