r/socialism • u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) • Jun 28 '23
Activism The social climate of the UK is changing, workers are realising that there is no alternative solution for example these 'Are you a communist' stickers are plastered everywhere in the UK we need a revolution, we need change and the proletariat of the uk are finally realising this.
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u/OrganizationOk9734 Subcomandante Marcos Jun 28 '23
These are the biggest Trot group in the UK, correct?
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 28 '23
I believe so
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u/OrganizationOk9734 Subcomandante Marcos Jun 28 '23
You're IMT so I imagine you're not entirely unbiased, having said that, what are your thoughts on them? I've been thinking about joining the Young Communist League, which are sort of on the other side of the Marxist-leninist spectrum.
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
At the end of the day, you will need to decide for yourself which org you think has the best answers to your questions.
The IMT in Britain wrote an open letter to the YCL published last year
Read the articles and the programme of any group you’re considering and think “does this make sense?” If you’re really serious about getting organized, reach out and have a conversation with one of the org’s activists. See if they answer your questions and ideas in a way that makes sense, with clear ideas and explanations. If they can’t do that then they might not be suited to carry out a revolution!
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u/its_silico Jun 29 '23
This is where I'm stuck. CPB has reactionary tendencies, whereas Trotskyist groups for one, I don't agree with ideologically and two despite that and a need for leftist unity, don't appear to give the impression of being a functional apparatus.
So for now, I'm lost. I don't know who to join as a ML.
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u/Specific-Change-5300 Jun 28 '23
Every single communist org in the UK is absolutely dogshit at the moment. All of them - barring none - are terfs actively pushing transphobia. It's an embarrassment.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 29 '23
The IMT sees trans rights as workers rights. Dunno if you have just generalised or how you have gotten that impression but had I gotten any inclination that we dont fight for the rights of the LGBTQ to be treated as equals I would not still be a member.
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u/Specific-Change-5300 Jun 29 '23
All they do here is post stickers and roll up to events others in the left have organised with their banners and branding to make it look like they're involved somehow then sell their newspapers. They have an exceptionally poor reputation here.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 29 '23
And showing up to show support makes them terfs? Not showing up would be to be silent on the matter and I cheer for our comrades that they go and actively show themselves to be in support of trans rights. We use of course the opportunity to spread our ideas of how the struggle can be taken further to victory for all LGBTQ cause what Marxist would not?
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u/Specific-Change-5300 Jul 01 '23
Where did I say that? I dismissed them because literally everyone hates them and they do absolutely nothing except promote membership of their org and sell newspapers. They are not doing any organising. That is why they are regarded as a joke among the British left.
There's literally no point in talking about them as a non-terf party if they aren't doing anything except opportunistically rocking up to other people's events that they put actual organising work into where they pretend they're involved and sell shit. They are no different to Big Issue sellers except at least a tiny portion of those sales go towards something worthwhile.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jul 01 '23
You literally called all UK communist organisations, ”barring none”, ”terfs actively pushing transphobia” in your first post. I am defending the IMT from this slander but you seem to have taken such offence to us simply because we choose the time honored method of selling our program in the form of papers to further fund the movement.
I am sorry that you personally are so slighted by our presence but we have been more than welcome at the many events we show up in and our efforts to spread a strong founded Marxist movement based on the ideas and experiences. And we will continue to as our efforts are more than ever showing fruit in a constant growing organisation of what we consider the most advanced workers and students who show more willingness than anyone to give to the struggle.
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u/Specific-Change-5300 Jul 01 '23 edited Jul 01 '23
Organisations, yes.
They don't do any organisation. They sell newspapers while piggybacking off actual work done by other people.
It's not just me personally. It's fucking everyone. Everywhere you rock up the way you do upsets people. This would be a completely different story if the org actually did any organising. Why the fuck would I acknowledge it alongside groups that actually do organising when people are asking what parties they should join to actually influence the political landscape? Selling newspapers does fuck all. They don't even get included in the consideration compared to people actually organising, actually salting, actually building protest events, actually forming a left.
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Jun 29 '23
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u/Specific-Change-5300 Jun 29 '23
Red Fightback were good, unfortunately they do not exist anymore. There's a reasonable post-mortem on what happened here: https://www.ebb-magazine.com/essays/red-fightbacks-final-crisis
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u/Brainkrieg17 Committee for a Workers' International (CWI-CIO) Jun 29 '23
they are not. Socialist Appeal is not that large in the UK. The biggest groups are the Socialist Party (a little over 2.000 members) and the SWP.\
And yes, I am an SP supporter, but they are definitely bigger (and I would argue more relevant) than Socialist Appeal. My impression of the SWP is very bad, and I would add that calling them Trot is only accurate if you define that term very loosely. Yes they originated from that direction, but Cliffites reject fundamental Trotskyist ideas, for example, by calling the USSR capitalist.
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
Not at all, socialist workers party has around 10,000.
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
Is that true? Last I saw they don’t even claim to have a tenth of that number
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
They do, or rather almost of that, while the remaining numbers are people in nations without a branch.
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
Can you link a source?
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
Not really, I’m with the Canadian sister org and we had one of SWP members give a report, who said their numbers were “returning near 10,000”. The only thing I could find online was 7,500 in 2004.
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
That’s interesting. Would be interesting to see their mobilizations at public meetings. At last year’s opening of the Marxism Festival, they claim an attendance of around 800.
Usually, public events like this are a big opportunity to mobilize members and sympathizers alike, which makes them a pretty decent barometer of an organization’s real size and influence.
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
Also, they’re large enough to have their own police infiltration unit. https://declassifieduk.org/spycops-monitoring-socialists-leaving-fascists-alone/
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
That was 1968-1982, when a lot of groups on the British left were much bigger. The Militant also had thousands of supporters and aroused a lot of concern in the British state and the ruling class, but the Militant no longer exists.
Do you have anything more recent?
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u/OrganizationOk9734 Subcomandante Marcos Jun 29 '23
I've got a negative impression of the SWP though because they had that rape situation with one of their leaders in the early 2010s, maybe I'm getting them confused with another group though..?
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
They did, but they handled it damn well better than IMT did. IMT simply shouted down the victim.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 28 '23
Not only in Britain, here in Sweden a similar campaign is spreading and is already showing great promise! We are finding the most advanced class conscious youth and workers and getting them organised against capitalism!
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u/Axartas Marxism-Leninism Jun 29 '23
As a swede myself, I've seen so many communist posters and stickers periodically placed around my town square! It makes me feel like change is on its way
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Jun 29 '23
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Jun 29 '23
Unfortunately they're both electing fascist.
The Finns Party in Finland has entered government through a coalition and they're vile racists. Look at this charming man who just became the speaker of Finland's parliament.
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Jun 29 '23
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u/PaninianSanskrit75 Jun 29 '23
No. There are places left here in India at least. The state of Kerala is pretty communist. Bengal is also quite communist. However, both areas have a job crisis. Jobs should exist and thrive in communist or socialist societies. That has not happened, unfortunately, in the states of India.
This should not encourage people to hail capitalism. In it's current neoliberal form, it's the biggest problem on earth. It needs to be changed. If workers don't do anything about it, it will be a big problem.
As Ambedkar would say :
EDUCATE, ORGANISE and AGITATE.
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Jun 29 '23
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u/PaninianSanskrit75 Jun 29 '23
Oh of course. I am sick of it. Our PM Modi is a puppet of corporations or corporate guys like Adani.
Since 2014, privatisation has exploded and corruption has increased because of it's normalization. Media is sold out; white collar crimes like tax theft are being increasingly covered up or written off or ignored; indigenous people or minorities are being marginalised; communal propaganda has exploded etc etc. It's a sh..fest.
Many people are aware of it. They are spreading the word. But it's difficult, coz most Indians are st..id, including so called educated people like my engineer father, and believe the propaganda, instead of doing the research.
I am scared. I am a victim of private healthcare fraud. Ever since finding out about the fraud, I have discovered the gigantic problems caused by privatisation in the world. It sucks. The people who support more and more of it are either unaware of what privatisation does or want it coz they are those very oppressors. It's really sad.
So, don't give up, mate. Btw, where in the UK are you from ? I lived in the UK for a year. The NHS is awesome. I might have to go there in the future for getting my teeth problem solved (the ones that were caused by those private criminals here). Do you know where I should go to get my problem solved ? I am suffering like hell. Don't know who to trust, coz the world is effed up. Please help. Sorry I am asking for help instead of offering a lot of it !
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Jun 29 '23
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u/PaninianSanskrit75 Jun 29 '23
Oh. I see. My bad. India is becoming more and more like USA. It's probably gonna be the USA of 21st century. I am scared. Not gonna get married or have children. Why ? Will never have enough money for that, especially coz of my dental problems. But anyway, I am not losing hope. Will work hard at least for myself and my dad.
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u/DouggietheK Jun 29 '23
Complaining and bemoaning your fate and wishing you were somewhere else is not going to help you. Get active and involved in organizing for change. Then you’ll have some self respect and other people will find you more attractive.
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u/yesIwillnotsurrender Jun 29 '23
The solution isn't running away from our problems in America, but building socialism wherever we are.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 29 '23
I would not recommend the country if you intend to flee right wing politics. Right now the far right party Swedish Democrats is on the rise as capitalism enters a phase of crisis and no viable left alternatives are being offered to the people (both the Social Democrats and Left parties are reformists, the Left party having long ago abandoned its “destroy capitalism” part of programme).
The best we can all do is to start building the communist vanguard needed in our countries, like another comrade pointed out we must fight the enemy in our home. In America we at the IMT have an American section called Socialist Revolution. I highly recommend checking them out, read our programme, get in touch with them and talk, if you agree with our ideas then consider very much to get organised too!
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u/leninism-humanism Zeth Höglund Jun 29 '23 edited Jun 29 '23
Left party having long ago abandoned its “destroy capitalism” part of programme
It is still in the program...
One must really wonder what the IMT/Revolution's plan is after being kicked out of the Left Party in 2015. Revolution still seem to publish articles every now and then about the Left Party needing to go to election on a socialist program but IMT/Revolution also have no intention of actually making any real interventions in the workers' movement or its parties. The Swedish section seems more focused on just recruiting students.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 29 '23
Then they should bloody act like that is what they are working towards. Instead the party leaders follow closely on the coat tails of the Social Democrats and when asked to take a stand against the governments right wing swinging Dadgostar ”didnt wanna make a fuzz”. Not make a fuzz? When they took a stand against the introduction of market prices in rent they made quite a fuzz and it worked. It was the first time in years I actually started to see a fighting party but then they ceased entirely.
And no interventions? We have been intervening now on multiple strikes across the country, most notably the train drivers in Stockholm recently. We are not a mass party, we are not that many, but we do what we can with limited resources but our focus is to build the strength of the vanguard for the workers.
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u/leninism-humanism Zeth Höglund Jun 29 '23
Of course I want a Left Party that fights but IMT/Revolution left the stage in 2015.
And no interventions? We have been intervening now on multiple strikes across the country, most notably the train drivers in Stockholm recently.
Showing up to picket lines to try and sell papers is hardly an intervention.
We are not a mass party, we are not that many, but we do what we can with limited resources but our focus is to build the strength of the vanguard for the workers.
But what is the plan for building this vanguard and exactly what is it suppose to do? The IMT can draw up greats polemics about what the Social-democrats or the Left Party, and the trade union movement should do but has no actual way forward, there is no strategy or tactics.
I have asked many times over the years, both in real life when they come to our rallies and online, when faced with these critiques of the Left Party and trade unions what IMT is actually planning on doing but always get the response that they are too small for now.
I do not buy that this is the real issue. Before the split in 2010 when the IMT-loyal minority left "Socialisten" to form Avanti as a new section of IMT the IMT was much better at actually being part of the workers' movement. A lot of its members were active working-class militants, the paper directly reported on the struggles in the SAP, SSU and the trade unions that IMT/Socialisten members were pushing. It was still a small group but they were still very active in the workers' organisations.
Today the Swedish section of IMT has a very different social base since they mostly organizes students(and by extension university educated professionals). This of course makes it near impossible to actually form marxist rank-and-file groups in the trade union movement.
It is time to return to real Ted Grantism.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 29 '23
I am sorry to hear you say that, I believe however in our methods and our strong theoretical foundation and have yet to meet an organisation in this country to make a better case.
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u/leninism-humanism Zeth Höglund Jun 30 '23
But it still doesn't explain how IMT/Revolution is planning on going from an organization of students to being a vanguard of the working-class. Having a "strong theoretical foundation" can never replace experience of participation in mass-work.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jul 01 '23
And disregarding the theoretical foundation of Marxism is how you keep repeating the mistakes of the workers movement without learning from it and we will never then achieve the long term goals of socialism.
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u/leninism-humanism Zeth Höglund Jul 01 '23 edited Jul 01 '23
I don't think we should disregard theoretical foundation of Marxism, that is why I am a member of Socialistisk Politik instead. The core of the issue is that we need both action and teory, both tactics and startegy.
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Jun 29 '23
I believe this is happening in all the anglo countries. I live in Australia and r/australia is becoming more accepting of socialism due to how fucked the situation is in Australia. At least, more left wing leaning. They all know neoliberalism is a failure. The boomers will continue to preach centrism who are really very conservative because they destroyed our future.
Landlords get the guillotine. People have said that.
They know I'm a communist and I haven't been banned from any of the subreddits of Australia.
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
Nice, I think class consciousness has risen quite a bit after covid
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Jun 29 '23
Its rising, but slowly.
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u/JustANewRedditer Jun 29 '23
the important thing it's to not stop rising.
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Jun 29 '23
I'm doing what I can to help!
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u/JustANewRedditer Jun 29 '23
Same here, comrade. One day we'll be trully united! I hope in my lifetime.
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u/IndelibleLikeness Jun 29 '23
The proletariat the world over must rise from the sleep that has allowed the Elon Musks of the world to bring civilization to this terrible place. We must end this fighting each over bread crumbs while they and only they enjoy the fruits of our labor.
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Jun 29 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
I mean compared to other stickers, out stickers saying "are you a communist" in bright red stick out like a saw thumb, there have been large vloggers who have seen them and ive even had my friends ask in groupchats what they are lol
https://twitter.com/socialist_app/status/1671908208577789952
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Jun 29 '23
I noticed one of these today in central London. It was really surprising, never seen any kind of advertisement appealing to me as a communist before.
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
Scan one of the QR codes and join up!
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u/paiopapa2 Learning Jun 30 '23
aren’t they trots? better than the transphobes down at CPGB-ML probably anyway
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u/IskaralPustFanClub Jun 30 '23
I was very proud last November when I returned to my hometown in Leicestershire from where I now live in America. I was walking through town when I saw two lads selling their own socialist newspaper. Bought a couple and gave them to the family.
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u/AppropriatePainter16 Jun 28 '23
I wonder what a second Cold War would look like with the Socialist Republic of Britain leading the revolution.
I am not confident about my chances as an American communist.
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u/ToLazyForaUsername2 Jun 28 '23
I hope that if Britain becomes communist it accepts Americans we refugees
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Jun 28 '23
Maybe then they can fix the NHS.
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u/editilly Jun 28 '23
I think considering that even an embargoed, stalinist poor country like cuba can have a relatively decent healthcare system, socialist Britain would definitely be able to make that happen
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u/editilly Jun 28 '23
It would be very weird if they didn't, but also, if it's an internationalist socialism like the IMT here propagates, then they would actively try to bring the revolution to the united states (and the rest of the world) so if you are a socialist in a country that hasn't yet had a revolution, help bring one about!
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 28 '23
you just have to keep fighting, be unrelentless and patiently explain your ideas to the workers
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u/Hanz_Q Jun 28 '23
America is in the middle of a massive unionization drive comrade, shit looks bad but we have to keep organizing and keep fighting.
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u/il_corpo Vladimir Lenin Jun 28 '23
i mean a sticker doesn’t really prove anything, is something actually happening?
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
socialist appeal have recruited a ton of comrades via this campaign
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u/il_corpo Vladimir Lenin Jun 28 '23
no irony, i’m ignorant on the state of british socialist groups
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u/cut-it Jun 29 '23
What is the IMTs position on the Labour Party?
Will they call for a vote for Labour in the election?
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
The IMT was actually part of the labour party for a while until they were purged by Starmer, we would say of course vote labour because they are slightly better than the Tories however people are going to realise soon after that labour does not change basically any of the problems that we are facing
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u/UsableIdiot Jun 29 '23
I don't believe in lesser evilism and I don't support electioneering either. I believe that engaging in local community projects and causes, as well as the wider movement has a much greater benefit than simply voting for a centrist party that doesn't have any regard for the working class, trade unions etc.
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u/cut-it Jun 29 '23
So you are supporting the Labour Party?
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
not with Starmer, no
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u/cut-it Jun 29 '23
I do not understand the position of your organisation.
Do you think a capitalist or social democratic party, is the road to socialism?
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u/RandBot97 IMT Jun 29 '23
No we do not, and we would not call for a vote for labour under Starmer, we wouldn't say don't vote for labour either, basically right now no political parties represent a way forward for the proletariat. Starmer will represent the ruling class and enact austerity and attacks on the workers. The only way forward is to build a revolutionary organisation that can play a leading role in the struggles going on in the trade unions, and later down the road potentially in the labour party as well, likely after a starmer government has shattered fully any illusions in him, but that's not on the agenda right now with no left to speak off in labour fighting back against starmer.
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u/cut-it Jun 29 '23
When in history did revolutionaries ever infiltrate and take over a reactionary, racist, pro imperialist party?
Doesn't seem realistic.
Why is this a line as opposed to just opposing the Labour Party full out?
Voting Labour is like slitting your own wrists because slitting your throat is the other alternative.
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u/RandBot97 IMT Jun 29 '23
I like how you ignore where I said we won't call for a vote for labour. We've never been trying to take over the labour party, but revolutionaries have to go where the class struggle is, not stand on the sidelines moralising. The labour party as a bourgeois workers party can be a field of class struggle between the left wing rank and file workers and the blairite bureaucrats, that's why we should be ready to be involved to support that struggle, just as we would in the trade unions (as for being reactionary, the Bolsheviks worked in the trade unions set up by the secret police! Because that's where the workers were!). There is no struggle in the Labour party right now, the left leadership because of their reformism have been soundly defeated by starmer for the time being, and so we, while keeping an eye on labour, aren't working there right now, we're focused on the unions. If you read any of our material mentioning labour recently you'll see it's almost always us explaining that a Starmer labour government will act in the interests of the ruling class and will not make things better for the working class, in fact will attack workers, and so is no solution.
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u/cut-it Jun 29 '23
You said you will not call for a vote for Labour 'under Starmer'. So what did you do in previous elections and for the past decades?
The British left has this tired old position, 'where a socialist doesn't stand vote Labour' or something like that. Which I find absolutely ridiculous considering the reactionary and anti working class history of the Labour Party.
It's clear the Labour Party is not a place of class struggle, and has never really been unless you want to go back to 1920s. Unless we just want to say class struggle is 'everywhere' to which I agree, but I'm not for example going to go inside the Tory party to fight working class people or inside a fascist party for the same reason.
Trade unions is another topic.
So I should take from this that the IMT will not be saying vote Labour this time, or 'hold your nose and vote Labour' ?
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u/Creptomaniac Jun 29 '23
Personally never understood these stickers which Socialist Appeal put around cities. It overestimates how many people are communist (or interested) and is just an odd angle if you want to recruit people. Makes more sense to ask something which correlates to issues people are concerned about.
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u/Quantum_Hedgehog Jul 08 '23
The sheer mass of people who are signing up via these QR codes suggests not!
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Jun 28 '23
You might be extrapolating too much from some stickers a bunch of trots plastered everywhere, mate
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u/Totg31 Socialism Jun 28 '23
They're just stickers. I've seen more ultra right-wing stickers than these. They mean little.
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u/Keasar Revolutionary Communist International Jun 28 '23
It is a great deal more than just stickers.
And it is working, comrade!
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u/human_thing4 Jun 29 '23
Or you could join the socialist workers party like every other trot in Britain.
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
i mean socialist appeal has had a ton of contacts due to the stickers, some places are recruiting a comrade every day
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u/bisexual_socialist Antifascism Jun 30 '23
i didn't realise these posters weren't just in my friends uni, but seriously, if this organisation wants to change things in the UK i'm up for it
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 30 '23
definitely, you can join online i believe
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Jun 28 '23
Ive seen those in sweden too, they look identical. What group is it?
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Jun 29 '23
It’s the International Marxist Tendency. We have a national section in Sweden called “Revolution”
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u/Brainkrieg17 Committee for a Workers' International (CWI-CIO) Jun 29 '23
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u/Weak-Shallot6217 Jun 28 '23
take notes USA
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
I believe there is an IMT section in the usa called socialist revolution maybe speak to them and see if they are able to do a similar campaign
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u/yeet_that_account Joseph Stalin Jun 28 '23
It’s a shame they’re Trots.
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Jun 29 '23
ANYTHING would be better then what we have now. It is a shame, but this is still a nice step
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
nice to see this type of support from a differing ideology, used to be Marxist Leninist however socialist appeal patiently explained and taught me why they support the idea of Trotskyism.
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u/JustSkillAura Jun 29 '23
You stopped being an ML after some guy talked to you? Jesus, have you read any works by Stalin? You can then analyze who had the actual correct political line
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23 edited Jun 29 '23
It’s called having convincing ideas and arguments!
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u/JustSkillAura Jun 29 '23
Mind telling me these convincing ideas and arguments?
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u/IMayBeSillyBut Leon Trotsky Jun 29 '23
I’m not gonna lay out a whole manifesto on Reddit comments, but you can read some of them for yourself in Lenin and Trotsky: What they really stood for
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u/Salt_Start9447 Jun 29 '23
Does it really matter that much? I find the division between MLs and Trots kind of ridiculous honestly when we’re 98% ideologically identical, especially in context of the nightmarish shitshow of Neoliberalism in 2023. Let’s have that discussion when we’ve toppled the house of parliament eh?
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u/GreenChain35 John Brown Jun 30 '23
Nah, the country is fucked. All communist groups are either pro-NATO trots or transphobes. There's no genuine Marxist group that isn't full of bigots
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u/Domirino Jun 28 '23
Bro thats one sticker. In my hometown there are communist stickers everywhere and nazi stickers are removed really quickly. Our country is still majority right wing.
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u/Sharing812 International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jun 29 '23
in Nottingham (my home town) of course there are some right wingers however the vast majority of the population is on the left, I've seen hundreds of those stickers all over town and some have been up in major locations for weeks without any signs of someone trying to take them down.
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u/tKaz76 Jun 29 '23
Because it’s worked so well every single time it’s been tried, right? What the “People” find out is it’s them that suffer.
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