r/formula1 • u/BottasWMR 2017 r/formula1 World Champion • Aug 28 '16
Belgium-2016 Belgium race start
https://streamable.com/r30432
u/psie2 Mika Häkkinen Aug 28 '16
One more what could have been for Raikkonen. Should have learned by now to never get excited about Kimi.
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Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
And it was 0% his fault, but at least we got a safety car so there's points to be had
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u/mikez2605 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
Honestly, I think it's part Vettel part Verstappen. Verstappen is naive for going for ever closing gaps, Vettel should not be turning that tight on turn 1 in spa. Raikkonen is just an unlucky passenger in all of this
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u/oh84s Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
Yeah thats my take on it. On initial viewing it looked like Verstappen just threw his car into a closing gap. But on second viewing he had just enough Space until Vettel bumped Kimi into him. But the margins were super super tight and that was always going to be a pretty delicate position.
I would say 60% Vettel, 40% Verstappen. 0% Kimi. Poor Kimi.
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u/Return_Of_The_Jedi Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
Yeah, if Vettel wasn't there Verstappen's move would've worked. It wasn't a bad move by itself.
Vettel was really sqeezing Räikkönen though.
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u/Supremuz Kimi Räikkönen Aug 28 '16
You can say it the other way around tho. Vettel was technically ahead of max so its hard to say. Poor kimi :(
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u/ninxi #StandWithUkraine Aug 29 '16
In the replay you can clearly see it was Seb squeezing poor Kimi and hitting him. Kimi couldn't have reacted, with or without the RB on the inside. The only one not making a clean turn here is Seb. 100% Vettels fault in T1. Whether Vettel was ahead of Kimi and Max didn't matter. Seb with all his experience in Spa should have known better than to move at such an angle to the inside at La Source, let alone if a teammate is on the inside.
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u/vi3nya Michael Schumacher Aug 28 '16
But if Verstappen wasn't there Vettel's move would've worked aswell since Räikkönen could've turn into the corner earlier.
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u/Return_Of_The_Jedi Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
I don't think so, from the replay you can see that Vettel just rams into Raikkonen.
*Edit: http://imgur.com/a/FlYyE. Order is messed up. Thank you very much.
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u/superfastjellyfish29 Ferrari Aug 29 '16
Only reason Vettel hit Kimi was because Kimi couldn't turn in because Max was on his inside and was giving him room
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Aug 28 '16
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u/NetQvist Aug 28 '16
I wonder if he could have gotten an exit at all, he would have had to go over the bumpy kerb thing on the inside and it didn't look smooth at all on the camera at least.
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u/2722010 Renault Aug 28 '16
It was a pretty bad move, high risk low reward, you won't accelerate well in that position so you're not even likely to get past the Ferrari's.
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u/cgbaciu Aug 28 '16
Well you could argue that Vettel didn't know that Verstapen would force it like that, he couldnțt see him. Vettel turned like that to get the spot behind Kimi, to close any gap and let kim through. I would say that Verstapen got frustrated he fucked up the start and wanted to do something about it. After that Verstapen just wanted to fuck everithing up. I do hope someone will tell him that shit like that could endanger other drivers life.
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u/dessert_racer Daniel Ricciardo Aug 28 '16
Verstappen goes "they just turned into me!" Yes thats what happens when you try to stick your nose in on a 120 degree first turn.
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u/Return_Of_The_Jedi Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
After seeing the replay it was Vettels fault. Raikkonen takes the same line as Rosberg into the first corner when Vettel completely cuts him off: http://imgur.com/a/FlYyE. Go 3 right to 1
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u/MartijnTP Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
There was enough room. Kimi let enough room for Max, who turned in like he should and did not block his front wheels. Until Seb decided he wanted to squeeze Kimi out.... I think this one should be on Vettel
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u/cjl4959 Aug 28 '16
Let's be honest here, Vettel and Raikkonen are both very talented and experienced drivers. Seems to me Vettel was assuming Raikkonen would have been about two feet further inside, which he would have been had Verstappen not thrown his car like an idiot on the inside at turn 1. Verstappen had no chance of successfully making that turn without hitting Raikkonen, that's just physics. Not to mention, nearly his entire car was off the course in the process, save for the precious two or so feet Raikkonen needed on the inside of that turn. And i highly doubt Vettel could see Verstappen on the inside of Raikkonen given he was in front of them both. This accident does not happen if Verstappen doesn't try to torpedo the turn. Raikkonen and Vettel have more than enough room to navigate the turn without Verstappen playing Gran Turismo on the inside.
Speaking of being off the course, where are the stewards on that one? They're so damned anal about people running on the kerbs, where's Verstappen's penalty for that? His car was quite literally almost entirely off the course.
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u/Aerowen69 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
had Verstappen not thrown his car like an idiot on the inside at turn 1
Let's be honest, look at the footage. He was already next to Kimi at the height of the 'rolex' clock/sign in the pitlane, that was not "divebombing" or suddenly thrown in at all. Kimi saw him too and left room.
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u/cjl4959 Aug 29 '16
he only got into that position by delaying his braking. it was physically impossible for him to make that turn without hitting kimi, he had too much speed for that tight a turn. And that's with two of his wheels on the grass and the other two on the kerb. Verstappen's contact with Kimi was going to happen, regardless of what Vettel did.
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u/Lucrums Aug 28 '16
I wonder if Vettel could see Verstappen and whether or not he realised he was even there. Maybe expecting Kimi to go tighter when he couldn't. Racing incident and unlucky Kimi I'd say.
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u/vorin Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
This sounds reasonable, but I can't see how Vettel is at fault, since neither RAI nor VES was halfway alongside - http://imgur.com/a/2ohNG
So similar to the image here entitled "Attacker less than half-way alongside" - https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
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Aug 28 '16
You should still avoid collisions.. The fact that you can or are allowed to,, doesnt mean you should
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u/vorin Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16
The people following are responsible for not running into the one ahead.
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Aug 28 '16
So, did Verstappen collide with Raikkonen or did Raikkonen collide with Verstappen? It was Vettel that ran into Raikkonen who ran into Verstappen.
And it wasn't the first time there was contact because either Vettel or Raikkonen turned in like there was nobody there. Its only logical to leave a bit more space as the guy on the outside in the first corner.
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u/mikez2605 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
it's spa, if you're not right on the inside then you should expect to take a very long way round. a driver in his 10th formula 1 season should really know better
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u/TehRocks Ferrari Aug 28 '16
It's a race start, lets not start spouting the usual 'alongside' bullshit.
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Aug 28 '16
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u/mikez2605 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
He shouldn't really have put himself into that position in the first place, that's why I'm calling him naive and not straight up wrong.
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u/wongie Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16
Max had a shit start and was trying to make up for it and carried too much speed for him to brake.
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u/BBBBPrime Michael Schumacher Aug 28 '16
Nah, he wasn't going too fast as he made the corner. It's just, like /u/mikez2605 said, a bit naive to make this move into this specific corner. Not necessarily wrong but it's a big risk to take.
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u/wongie Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16
The comment I was replying to said Max could only go for that gap because of the speed he was carrying otherwise he would have braked into cars behind, and under that line of argument then the logical answer would be that Max was carrying too much speed to up for a bad start. Looking at the live reply I agree now that he doesn't look like he was going any faster than any one else.
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u/thelawenforcer Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16
He hit kimi halfway through the corner.
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u/BBBBPrime Michael Schumacher Aug 28 '16
Because Kimi got squeezed by Vettel cutting inside. It's a clear racing incident.
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u/thelawenforcer Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16
he was going to hit kimi there regardless.
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u/BBBBPrime Michael Schumacher Aug 28 '16
He really wasn´t. He took the corner with 4 wheels on the curbs numerous times throughout the race.
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u/thelawenforcer Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16
1st of all, kerbs are less grippy than the tarmac, thus his turning performance is compromised by being there. 2ndly, he has a very shallow line, his turn radius is reduced meaning he needs to be slower to achieve the same rate of turn as someone with a higher turn radius. the fact that he was approximately the same speed as raikonen, who had a bigger turn radius to work with, means that collision was inevitable.
out of curiosity, how much racing experience have you got and how long have you followed f1?
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u/BBBBPrime Michael Schumacher Aug 28 '16
I´ve karted for a couple of years when I was a kid and follow F1 from around 2002, when I was 7. Which is why I´m a big Ferrari fan.
Collision was clearly not inevitable had Vettel left space to work with.
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u/MTXnl Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
That would be right if he ran into Kimi, but he didnt... Instead vettel hit kimi who hit ves...
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u/gregorramza Aug 28 '16
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u/VamosUnited96 McLaren Aug 28 '16
You must repent, say 50 "Hail Senna", and listen to a V12 for 20 minutes.
Think about what you have done.
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u/Bruhstx Manor Aug 28 '16
If you ask me its a racing incident.. its pretty much Vettel going wide but turning in so he won't lose pace when he takes the corner and not knowing that Max was in between the wall and Raikkonen so yeah. Max went in aswell but tbh who wouldn't? Raikkonen couldn't do shit about it and Vettel pretty much thought that Raikkonen had no one to his right or closed the gap.
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u/gdvs Stoffel Vandoorne Aug 28 '16
Max went in aswell but tbh who wouldn't?
A lot of drivers. Having a bad start is annoying, but dive-bombing three wide at the inside of la source is not a smart thing to do. It's a very incident prone first corner.
He got frustrated by his start, lost his cool, took risks and had to face the consequences.
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u/ben323nl Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
So is this Vettels fault? He turned in a bit early pushing Raikonnen into Verstappen who had a gap wich he took. However Vettel couldn't have know Verstappen was next to Raikonnen so he thinks he is in the right.
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Aug 28 '16
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Aug 28 '16
divebombing is wrong
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u/Raptros Aug 28 '16
It wasn't even a divedomb.
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u/afito Niki Lauda Aug 29 '16
98% of the car on the curb, right on the wall. Zero steering angle at a point where the corner has already begun because he just goes straight at the apex.
But not a divebomb.
Ok.
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u/Raptros Aug 29 '16
Except he had a significant portion of the car alongside before the corner (he was alongside before or at the rolex clock thing in the pit lane). And don't tell me people don't run the kerb there if they're on the inside on the first lap anyway. Besides, if Vettel had not turned down on Kimi then all three would've gotten through unscathed.
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u/Juzh123 Aug 28 '16
Vettel did the same thing to ric in mexico last year. I mean, it's happened a few times now and first lap you have to take more caution. Was a foolish move.
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u/Byzantinenova Ferrari Aug 28 '16
I can understand what you said. But from what i see, he came in at a sharp angle into the hairpin. Even if Verstappen was not there it would have been close. Vettel was way too aggressive into the corner...
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u/puddingbrood Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
Well, Vettel shouldn't have steered into Raikonnen either way. You can't be proactive when you take the outside, you have to be reactive.
It's naive for verstappen to think that there is something to gain by forcing his car in the gap, but it's not an actual mistake.
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u/cjl4959 Aug 28 '16
Verstappen had no chance of maneuvering that turn without hitting Raikkonen, even if Vettel was not there on the outside. He got to the inside under braking, hence he had too much speed going into the hairpin. They would have hit regardless. it was a foolish move on Verstappen's part.
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Aug 28 '16
divebombing is always wrong
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u/Yoge5 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
No it's not.
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Aug 28 '16
It always depends on the series, it's pretty well established that 'dive bombing' is pretty acceptable in F1, and even promoted with DRS at the end of straights. As long as you don't lock up and run into the competition I don't really see anything wrong with it, it can be very dangerous in other series though.
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Aug 29 '16
I don't really view it as anyone's fault. Vettel didn't know about Max and Kimi tried to give Max a space. I guess some of the blame rests on Max because he dove pretty deep inside, but it's hard to say.
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Aug 28 '16
[deleted]
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3
u/ZenivoRS Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
Uh, bot, I think you might be mistaken.
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u/fiah84 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
No what we're seeing here is that AI is starting to learn to apply sarcasm
The end is nigh!
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u/SCREECH95 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
Yes and Max didn't expect a third driver moving in from the outside.
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u/chasingchicks Aug 28 '16
I'd say Vettel is at fault. Very disappointing, could have been an insane 3 or 4 laps.
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u/musef1 Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
Why do we have to go nuts at drivers over every incident?
Verstappen was a tiny bit silly to go so tight there, it's a risky move because it always gets very tight there on the race start. But that doesn't mean he can't do that, if the gap is there, and he can get reasonable amount alongside, and can get it stopped and rotated (which appears to be the case) then it's fine.
Vettel shouldn't have gone as tight there in hindsight, but he would very very likely be unaware that a car would appear on Kimi's inside. Given that on the approach Verstappen was dropping back and wasn't in a great position/isn't the wisest choice to get up the inside there, it's reasonable to assume Kimi's inside was clear.
Kimi quite clearly has no blame in this at all.
It so easy to have incidents like this at La Source, this happens all the time.
Given all of that, this is a racing incident. It's unfortunate for those involved, but that's racing.
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u/Thickchesthair Ferrari Aug 28 '16
After watching the replay several times, my view of it is that VET went into the corner not knowing that VER was there, so he turned in giving RAI plenty of room (which is the only car VET thought was there). From VETs field of view (direct vision and mirrors), there is now way he could have seen that VER ducked in like that - he was in his blind spot.
Technically, this I would call this a racing incident, but realistically VER should know that you can't duck in alongside 2 other drivers on turn 1 of Spa on lap 1 like that and come out untouched.
The first time I watched it I yelled "Vettel you idiot!", but after watching this replay several times, I can see why he did what he did.
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u/famschopman Sergio Marchionne Aug 28 '16
Vettel steering in too sharp, sandwich for Raikonnen and Max.
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u/dessert_racer Daniel Ricciardo Aug 28 '16
Max probably shouldn't have been shooting for that one to be fair.
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u/famschopman Sergio Marchionne Aug 28 '16
There was plenty of space. The moment Vettel steered in he hit Kimi, and Kimi hit Verstappen. Without Vettel both would have gotten the corner just fine.
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u/TehRocks Ferrari Aug 28 '16
On the kerb on the inside
Plenty of space
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u/Yoge5 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 28 '16
I can't remember a race start when people didn't go over that kerb.
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u/wongie Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16
A sandwich which Max helped cause by going into a closing gap whilst possibly carrying too much speed for making up for his bad start.
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u/fiah84 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
The angle that they showed from inside the corner shows that verstappen and Raikkonen got through without touching right up until Vettel and Raikkonen made contact. I don't know whether Vettel could have known that Raikkonen didn't have any room to his right
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_INDICA Aug 28 '16
The fault lies 50/50 with Vettel and Verstappen IMO. Gotta feel for Raikonnen.
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u/wongie Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16
Equal blame on Seb and Max for me. Max was trying his luck, I agree with Martin there, and that meant Kimi had no room to turn inward. however Seb should perhaps have anticipated someone trying their luck and should not have turned into too harshly.
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u/hopenoonefindsthis Aug 28 '16
I have said Max has been too aggressive in the past. But I don't think he was at fault here. Vettel just didn't leave enough room for Kimi and Kimi bounced off Vettel and hit Max.
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Aug 28 '16
go to googl maps look at that corner from the top, and thinh again, classic divebombing by Max. Vettle also f-up but that had nothing to do with verstappens divebombing
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u/K1skuri Kimi Räikkönen Aug 28 '16
More experienced drivers would have cut their losses after the poor start, not Verstappen though brake late and squeeze in, I don't think Vettel was anticipating 3 abreast looking at his line.
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u/JimmerUK #WeRaceAsOne Aug 28 '16
You can't just drive into another car because you don't think it will be there when you get there. Vettel is experienced enough that he can react to cars moving and knowing they will.
Vettel fucked up.
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u/Nawero Aug 28 '16 edited Mar 26 '18
It was just a racing accident that could've been avoided by all of them really.
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u/K1skuri Kimi Räikkönen Aug 28 '16
Well to be fair the way I phrased it comes off a bit judgemental.
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Aug 28 '16
Very difficult situation. Max wasn't aware of Seb way on the outside and Vettel turned in quite hard not knowing Max was right on the apex. Kimi just had nowhere to go.
Simple racing incident imo where no one is at 100℅ fault.
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u/Astonex Honda RBPT Aug 28 '16
Does anyone have a link to the alternative angle with them coming round the first corner? It shows VET clearly colliding into RAI.
Edit: It's the last angle here in this clip https://streamable.com/4y90 There's room for RAI and VES, and VET just comes straight into RAI
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u/kbtech Kimi Räikkönen Aug 28 '16
Grr one of Kimi's favorite circuits, and all goes wrong at the start.
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u/noplayoffssin04 Sebastian Vettel Aug 28 '16
Verstappen appears to have Senna's moto of placing his car in dangerous positions and forcing other drivers to decide if a crash will occur. Verstappen's car is almost completely off the track, and on the curb, when Vettel makes contact with Raikkonen.
Vettel was taking the racing line into turn 1, while Verstappen was 4ish car widths from said line. Making the corner at such a tight angle would be difficult with no traffic. Vettel should have left more space, and Verstappen should not place his car in such dangerous positions. Feel bad for Raikkonen.
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u/Byzantinenova Ferrari Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
100% vettel's fault...
i fucking called something like this yesterday....
honestly, the way vettel responded... he did not even give a shit...
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u/d0mth0ma5 Jenson Button Aug 28 '16
Verstappen also shouldn't have been there.
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u/Byzantinenova Ferrari Aug 28 '16
Its not that... vettel turned from the wide into the apex. you dont do that on the first lap... its the same problem as china... FML
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u/MrRoyce Ferrari Aug 28 '16
Huh? Everyone was braking but one person decided "nah, fuck that", squeezed himself in so Kimi couldn't turn and it's Vettels' fault? Yes, he could've made a more wide turn, but under normal circumstances, he wouldn't need to, because before taking a turn, assuming he looked right, there was only Kimi inside...
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Aug 28 '16
He definitely positioned the car to leave Kimi enough room on the inside and did not anticipate the move by Verstappen. Vettel looks like he is in the wrong because he squeezed and made the contact but if Verstappen doesn't put his nose in there none of the contact happens so it is kind of hard to place blame on any one driver (Even kimi should have probably covered off Max to the inside a lot earlier).
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u/gamingchicken Kimi Räikkönen Aug 28 '16
He basically pinched Raikkonen. Hope he doesn't try to blame it on Kimi.
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Aug 28 '16
The argument can be made that Kimi should have covered the inside much more aggressively especially with his teammate beside him. Personally I think all three drivers made technical errors.
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u/wm_berry Aug 28 '16
It's a racing incident. Vettel and Verstappen both did something naive that's risky but ultimately allowable.
If either had been the only one to do something everyone would have been fine. Because they both did everyone was not fine.
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u/CrossMojonation David Coulthard Aug 28 '16
Almost a carbon copy of China. An opportunistic Red Bull on the inside merging with two Ferraris. The only difference being Vettel deserved some of the blame here for taking too tight a line.
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Aug 28 '16 edited Aug 28 '16
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u/ProviNL Red Bull Aug 28 '16
i see other ferrari fans say vettel is at fault. But hey, its always verstappens fault right?
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u/InfinityGCX Niki Lauda Aug 28 '16
I think people are starting to get fed up with him pulling dubious moves near constantly and not getting penalized for anything, to the point where people just want to see him getting a penalty, even for stuff that shouldn't really be.
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Aug 28 '16
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u/ProviNL Red Bull Aug 28 '16
agreed. Without vettel pushing kimi in, verstappen would have been totally fine though, he also didnt have much places to go
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u/JimmerUK #WeRaceAsOne Aug 28 '16
Raikkonen allowed the gap, and max was fine until Vettel hit drove into Kimi. Take Vettel out of the equation and Kimi and Max would have got through the corner happily.
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u/xv323 Jenson Button Aug 28 '16
Leaving aside who did what to who, and whose fault it was... that shot over the top of Raidillon was absolutely insane. Cars seemingly flying every which way, weaving about, appearing out of nowhere in weird and wonderful places, the camera frantically panning about trying to capture as much of it as possible... brilliant stuff to watch.
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u/seanrm92 Aug 29 '16
GG Ferrari. Good job throwing away another race. This is getting kind of tragic.
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Aug 28 '16
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u/Byzantinenova Ferrari Aug 28 '16
Vettel is not at fault not Vestappen... He pinched them both and raikkonen and Vestappen had nowhere to go...
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u/chasingchicks Aug 28 '16
Bad start by Max but a good move there. He had nowhere else to go, I'd agree Seb is at fault.
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Aug 28 '16
Goldenboy causes an avoidable accident again. Divebombing like that is fine when you're racing AI on Gran Turismo, but this is F1.
Hashtag WellDoneMax
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u/Cameltotem Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 28 '16
Vettel was just as much to blame as Verstappen.
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Aug 29 '16
If Verstappen wasn't there, Kimi doesn't domino into Vettel. Vettel can't see if there's anyone inside of Kimi to know better, Verstappen made his move late and would've been able to see the Ferrari's alonside each other and still divebombed.
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Aug 28 '16
VES was on the inside of the inside kerb already, so he should disappear in the wall, oh wise racing armchair expert?
Maybe that is possible in Gran Turismo.
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u/BrunoAlonso Fernando Alonso Aug 28 '16
Verstappen would never make that corner without contact he's pushing his luck to extremes.
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Aug 28 '16
He was already on the inside of the inside kerb, and F1 cars have a wide turning radius. Perhaps VES couldn't turn in the wheel any further, it is still one of the sharpest corners in F1.
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Aug 28 '16
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u/Byzantinenova Ferrari Aug 28 '16
Vettel pinched them both onto the corner they were fine until kimi was forced to turn in to avoid vettel
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u/TheLittleKnownLegend Aug 28 '16
Vettel hit raikonnen first, so he's at fault. Raikonnen is left with no room because of max, however it's not necessarily his fault as he doesn't know sebs going to squeeze kimi so much. I don't think seb deserves any penalty however, it's just a mistake which in most cases would've resulted in him losing a bit of wing and continuing.
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Aug 28 '16
I think the first corner incident is Vettels fault. He turned in far too sharply. If he weren't there, Verstappen and Kimi would have made it through turn 1 without contact... As a Hamilton fan, it ain't so bad because without it Hamilton likely wouldn't have been on the podium, but even so, kinda sucks all the same as my wife is a Kimi fan.
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u/Poolix Mark Webber Aug 28 '16
Max should have been penalised for being all over the bloody road and trying to defend with a clearly damaged car, he was off the track like 3 times and came back on pretty recklessly
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u/Uusis Valtteri Bottas Aug 28 '16
Why... WHY!
Kimi had the best start of the year! But no....
NO.
PERKELE.