r/JewsOfConscience • u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox • 14d ago
Discussion - Flaired Users Only A non-Zionist Jewish flag I designed.
132
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox 14d ago edited 14d ago
- Blue and white are ancient colors, that's obvious. I just arranged them in a way that was less politically-loaded.
- The Menorah is a more ancient symbol than the magen david, so I think it would be a more authentic symbol. It's lit to symbolize the eternal flame of Jewish tradition, however you choose to define that.
- The blacked-out magen david symbolizes mourning for the Jewish martyrs of the past, present, and future. Six points on the star for the six million Holocaust victims. I cribbed this idea from the flag of the Cherokee Nation
25
u/wandrin_star 13d ago
Love it. Maybe have the Menorah either with six candles lit (for 6M) or just the shamash, as a representation of the ongoing, unfinished story of Judaism.
-20
u/Similar-Rip-4408 14d ago
Nothing wrong with Israeli flag. But it's not a "Jewish flag" as such. It's the flag of Israel. Yes zionist.
It is the flag of a country not exactly a "Jewish flag" but it does have star of david of course.
I like Israeli flag. It's beautiful
Your orthodox? I'm a Christian from Ramallah.
For all its flaws like many nations I still now have Love for the state of Israel as in the country. I have had enough of Hatred in all honesty and I have been raised around it my whole life. I don't like it. The worst thing is the Hate of Jews. I could understand being critical of the govt and various policy But absolutely don't understand Hatred of Jews in general or even Israel in general.
It doesn't help Palestinians. The islamist extremist ideogly. It is like Facism in itself and scares me. It not only brings harm to Israelis But invites harm back to my people.
I think I will maybe be banned from this subreddit but that is ok. I honestly Try explain as a Palestinian that we don't all 100% share same views. I used to have different views but I was in many cases wrong. Not everything but a lot.
I'm intrigued by this subreddit as many of the things i was raised to believe by society in general as my parents honestly didn't share all the same views.
I think in my opinion it's no necessary to be against Israel as a country full stop or zionism. I have learnt HUGE amount and have looked into things in detail and now I do love Israel. It doesn't mean I love all about it. Also I have Extended family & Friends who live in Israel 😆🤣 so I can't hate nor wish harm.
Not all is black & white
19
u/mxpapaya Ashkenazi 13d ago
Sounds like a propaganda account/bot to me, and based on your post history and the fact that you just popped up less than a year ago and 99% of your comments are classic hasbara talking points. This is a space for Jews who are disillusioned with Zionism precisely because we’ve seen the harm it’s caused us and how it has sucked the souls of our people. Many of us have been to Israel/Palestine and witnessed the occupation and fascism with our own eyes. I’ll agree that there is unnecessary hate for Israelis because as much as I disagree with many of them and find their ultranationalism repulsive I believe every human being deserves to live safely and equitably. That, however, cannot happen to Palestinians or Israelis as long as the apartheid state of Israel exists. I highly highly doubt you are actually a Palestinian from Ramallah but if you are I feel sad for you. Go take your propaganda elsewhere
11
u/mysecondaccountanon Jewish Anti-Zionist 13d ago edited 13d ago
Adjective-noun-fournumbers seems to be something popping up for a lot of issues, not even just this.
1
u/Similar-Rip-4408 12d ago edited 12d ago
No. Excuse me I had a long while ago another account with my name & my birth year. I lost that account. I very very rarely used this social media as I used FB, Instagram and Twitter and now I use one called Also Telgran.
I got another account (this one) and I was given the random name. I want to change but can't seem too.
I want to say I am very much surprised by how I'm being treated! I truly in my heart believed of all people you would be happy to talk but I'm getting much abuse or ignoring or dismissal.
I really don't understand. I'm not saying anything that bad. I'm saying incredibly good things. I want to live with or next to Israel in co existence. That is my belief. As a Christian I and my patents and much of my family believe. It will take both sides and both of us will not Dissappear. I simply to not hate israel. I used to. It's a good thing I don't.
You I think now have been conditioned to just one way of thinking and anything that very small goes away from that thinking is treated bad. It wasn't easy for me to change my thinking but it is absolutely necessary for any chance of peace.
Because Israelis aren't going to Dissappear Palestinians aren't going to Dissappear Both sides aren't going to just Dissappear To hate or try say we must attack israel or harm civilians or any of this I absolutely absolutely 100% do not agree with. Even peace activists like me were killed by hamas in israel . It achieved nothing for my people but an obvious response. Which hamas knew. None of that is propaganda. They did truly horrible things. I seen the worst on Oct 7th and a few days after as I was at my parents home then and seen live and soon after. Absolutely NO way is supporting such ideas good for us. I am shockd that I need to explain this.
I love the Jewish people and Israel now. Your a people of light. You also brought us our faith. You can believe whatever you like and that's ok. Many Palestinians still hate Israel but we were raised in that environment. It was to blame everything that happens on israel. Trying to justify atrictues by religious extremists and then when Israel would respond blame solely Israel. It is no way so simple. I am happy I got out of that way of thinking because we both 100% belong on the land and we as I said both will be here in 1, 2, 10, 50, 200 years. I can't put into words here how much I got wrong though.
1
u/Similar-Rip-4408 13d ago edited 13d ago
I find it incredible saddening that you instant to call me Israel propaganda. And you have got it very wrong. I no longer want conflict. It's caused us huge suffering.
No Palestinian can have even a slightly different perspective without me being called this. You feel sad for me?? I work with isrseli peace activists whom come to my community!!!! I can't believe you say such things.
Israel israelis isn't going to Dissappear Palestinians isn't going to Dissappear Trying to do so will ALWAYS ALWAYS cause us much suffering and it absolutely isn't at all black and white
I said not one thing that is propaganda and I honestly feel saddened that you have fell so much into a black white reasoning that you can't even accept a Palestinian who wants peace!! Not hamas. I'm Christian. I don't haye israel. Not all Palestinians hate israel. It doesn't mean I like Ben gvir or those people.
You honestly honestly are very wring in what you say. I say I have family in Israel who live good lives and this is maybe 20th tome i been called traitor or liar or not Palestinian or other things bcos i said my extended family have good lives which they do. It isn't propaganda to say that. Am I supposed to say they all live in misery?
Just because you have strong beliefs absolutely does not mean all you think is ok or right. I'm no longer anti zionist. Not bcos I love war obviously or I love the govt But bcos I know regonise israel as a country and a people bcos even my own relatives are there. It doesn't mean by way that I agree with everything israel does but I no longer have hatred. And absolutely 100% much of the suffering and hardships that come are because of bad things our own leaders do. I don't see how anything I say is bad.
Pop up year ago bcos I honestly never used to use Reddit often. I used other social media.
I wanted to talk to Jewush groups including ones like this. . Many people I know also don't hate zionosm or israel. I have meet many different Israeli zionists who not even like netenyahu.
We had events where they would come to both Ramallah & Hebron and we would discuss things. I meet a man named Rudy Rochman. I don't agree with all he says But I still think he is a good soul in all honesty. Also I meet all other types. You don't have to hate Israel as a country to help Palestinians. It's truly a wrong view
51
u/Unhappy_Entertainer9 13d ago
Just esthetically I like the direction I'd maybe not include the darkened star, to me it looks like an after thought in the corner and doesn't communicate what you set out for.
Maybe also swap white and blue to see if that makes the menorah less busy looking
54
u/Kiizzaa Jewish Anti-Zionist 14d ago
Not to be too negative about it, but it’s a little bit loud imo
43
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox 14d ago
I think so too, its a rough draft
20
u/Vladimir_Zedong 13d ago
Take out the flames or at least make the flames something less fancy. Flags should have simple shapes in my opinion. The kind of things you could draw very easily.
18
10
u/twig_zeppelin Jewish Anti-Zionist 13d ago
I love this design idea! I think playing with the layout of the Menorah, and having the bottom row centered with the middle of the color divide, and then trying out different simplifications of the Menorah, and placement of the Magen David, could give some interesting results as well. I would love to see other future versions if you end up tweaking it at all.
All that said, it’s a cool project and an earnest representation of a non-Zionist Jewish flag.
28
u/awolf_alone Anti-Zionist 13d ago
What is the rationale for a flag for non-Zionist Jews? Nothing such existed prior to Zionism and their adoption of a flag for the state of Israel. Is this not entirely contradictory? However, I do understand in the modern age, flags are now being used in more varied ways such as the pride flag. I'm still not clear what this is seeking to achieve
17
13d ago
[deleted]
-3
4
u/reenaltransplant Mizrahi 13d ago
Likewise... flags are associated with nations & nationalism, not faiths or even shared ancestries... Renouncing Zionism means renouncing the idea that Jewish people are a nation, so why a flag?
Symbology by itself is fine and occurs in religions, shared cultures and bloodlines.
17
13d ago edited 13d ago
There are certainly well-known flags associated with things other than nations and nationalism. I'm also confused by the idea that renouncing Zionism means renouncing the idea that Jewish people are a nation. Can Jewish people not be considered a "nation", not in the nation-state sense, but in the sense of a group with a shared identity, without the idea of Zionism?
Edit: I forgot that I wanted to mention the Romani flag, which is a great example of a flag that represents an ethnic group/shared culture but not a nation-state.
5
u/Beatrix-Morrigan Non-Jewish Ally 13d ago
the red and black of anarchist communists is another example. ancoms all around the world reject the idea of a nation-state but have rallied around the red and black for the better part of a century, at the very least
0
u/reenaltransplant Mizrahi 13d ago
A nation is much more than a group with a shared identity, even if it doesn't control a specific piece of land with lines drawn on a map. It has a shared structure of governance. Women have a shared gender identity, we don't think of ourselves as the female nation. More examples of groups who share identities that we don't think of as nations include redheads, people with disabilities, parents...
But you know what, LGBTQ+ people are a great example of an identity prominently represented by a flag that has helped people express support without thinking of themselves as a nation, so I do stand corrected about the association between flags and nations.
3
13d ago
To be fair, it seems like many Jews consider themselves a nation, and that's not referring to the state of Israel. I can see why people would also feel differently.
12
u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox 13d ago
Respectfully, the hell it does. We’ve been a nation long before Zionism and the Westphalian idea of nation-states. We will continue to be afterwards. That’s how we’ve always defined ourselves. I for one refuse to let our self-perceptions be dictated by gentile whims, which is why among other reasons I’m an antizionist
9
u/crossingguardcrush Jewish 13d ago
What a cool project. I like this a lot and actually like the boldness of the color scheme.
It's funny bc at first I thought the blacked out magen david was to represent the deaths and destruction caused by zionism....
2
u/KingPickle07 Jewish Anti-Zionist 12d ago
I have no real issues with this post personally, and I LOVE flags, and I understand your intentions. Plus, it's not a bad flag. However, I think Anti-Zionist Jews should be careful about falling into the trap of homogenizing Jews into one lump and "nation", rather than a big, diverse, and messy collection of groups who identify with the vague label of "Jew." I get what you're going for, but ya don't want people to misinterpret you
2
u/Diabel_Hanta 13d ago
I'm non Jew and sad that Israel used star of David for their flag. It's very meaningful but this is nice
2
1
1
1
u/sumtinsumtin_ Non-Jewish Ally 13d ago
I like it! That tangent in the middle is rough times but an excellent start! What if the star was the middle flame? I’m not Jewish and not sure if that would offend or mixing these symbols changes their meaning in any way. Cheers and thank you for sharing your artwork!
1
u/Time_Waister_137 Reconstructionist 13d ago
Nice start! But I think it would carry more emotional depth if instead it contained one or more symbols as those displayed on, say, the jewish catacombs in Rome, for instance ? It would signify that we are directly connected to deeper, more ancient traditions.
1
1
1
1
u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi 12d ago
Personally, I like white bands on top of color bands. It feels more correctly "weighted."
1
1
13d ago
[deleted]
3
13d ago
I wasn't the one to downvote you, but I'm guessing it's because the flames on the Menorah are already an established symbol for the fire that keeps burning. It doesn't seem like there's a need to create a different symbol to represent that idea here. And not having the Menorah lit might feel like it's saying something else, or at least that something's missing.
0
u/TinyZoro Jewish Anti-Zionist 13d ago
I wouldn’t put the star of David in. It has a place in Jewish mystical history but I think it’s now too associated with Zionism. If the aim is to connect to a Judaism free of modern Zionism I would lose it.
0
u/Carlsen021 Anti-Zionist 13d ago
I like it. I hate the one they have now, it gives me the same reaction as looking at a Nazi swastika flag.
Right now, after a year, it stands for nothing good.
0
u/elieax Jewish non-Zionist Israeli/American 13d ago
I have to say, a big menorah in the center reminds me too much of the racist Beitar Jerusalem hooligans at this point. (Also evokes the State of Israel's official emblem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Israel)
I don't think the star and menorah need to be discarded as symbols of the Jewish people, but need to be used very differently. I like the small black star in the corner. I think I'd like the flag better if the menorah was also a small black menorah in one of the other corners... I feel like that would symbolize both the grief of the suffering of the Jewish people, and of the suffering that we've inflicted on Palestinians. The two inextricably related darkest chapters in our modern history.
I also think that blue & white, in the context of a Jewish flag, is irrevocably associated with the State of Israel now. Maybe on solid blue, or blue/white/black, or something to really differentiate it visually and emotionally from the colors of the modern Israeli flag.
That, and/or maybe some kind of anti-state symbol in order for it to be a recognizably non-Zionist flag.
-5
•
u/AutoModerator 14d ago
Hi everyone,
'Discussion' posts require users to choose an appropriate flair in order to participate.
Please remember the human & be courteous to others. Thanks!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.