r/JewsOfConscience • u/Educational_Board888 Non-Jewish Ally • 17d ago
Activism Imagine feeling threatened by a library display
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u/crossingguardcrush Jewish 17d ago
• "For safety" 🙄
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u/touslesmatins Non-Jewish Ally 17d ago
"for the safety of your false consciousness and untenable identity built on a house of cards from a deck called lies and war crimes"
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u/gatoescado Arab Jew, Masorati, anti-Zionist, Marxist 17d ago edited 17d ago
Don’t you know that displays of the mere existence of Palestinians can cause a lot of uncomfortable feelings for Zionists?! We need to respect their perspective. Pictures of dead Poets (assassinated by the Zionist state) and kufiyas and watermelons can be scary! This is literally what happened during Kristallnacht!!
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u/Gilamath Non-Jewish Ally 17d ago
History books and biographies, a kufiyyah, red poppies, and visibly Muslim library-goers in the background. That's all it is. That's all it takes
It is the very assertion that there is such a thing as a Palestinian, the very fact that Muslims exist in any given space, the very idea that peace is preferable to military adventurism that threatens the safety of certain people
It's because these folks sincerely believe that the notion of Palestinian history is antisemitic, that the concept of Palestinian identity is antisemitic, that the valuing of peace is antisemitic, that the presence of Muslims is antisemitic
And the sad part is, these hateful beliefs tend to win the day. Folks who hold them tend to get what they want. They view harassment and exclusion as tools of ensuring "safety". This version of peace is an perpetual violence done against anyone and anything that suggests that there is more to the world than the way they understand it
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
Safety?????
Books do be giving paper cuts sometimes I guess
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u/Baka-Onna Vietnamese Gentile Ally 17d ago
Just got a massive paper cut today. Kinda stung
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
That sucks. I stubbed my toe on my bookshelf just yesterday... those are also pretty scary too. A whole collection of books all in one place 😰
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 16d ago
I wish you both a God speed recovery from your fatal injuries. Damn those books! 😂🙏
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u/Playful_Tea_5268 Ashkenazi 17d ago
It’s at van nuys library if anyone in LA wants to support them on social media or go see it in person.
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u/touslesmatins Non-Jewish Ally 17d ago
Is it a specific branch? I have friends and family I could send to support :)
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u/Responsible-Ad8702 Orthodox 17d ago
They have good reason to be afraid... though not for their safety, of course. Knowledge and reading are dangerous to Zionism.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical 17d ago
I know a lot of pro-Israel Jews, and almost none of them are as reactive and out of touch as the folks on r/Jewish. They permabanned me and listed several reasons, among which was misspelling Israel as "Isreal," Dyslexics are a key part of the Axis of Resistance of after all
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
I know some out of touch Zionists ranging from liberal Zionist to full on kahanist... but yea no one is like the people on the main Jewish sub... It is ABSURD
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical 17d ago
Yeah anget strong sense that these folks are spending huge portions of their day consuming this content and not really living a real life.
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u/crumpledcactus Jewish 17d ago
They did a survey a while back. 50% of the subreddit back then was either an Israeli citizen, or directly related to an Israeli citizen (mostly spouses). It's been a while, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was 100% Israelis as of now.
It should be renamed to r-HasbaraEchoChamber.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Atheist 16d ago
46% of Jews worldwide are Israeli. Sounds like it's matching the demographics. Not sure what the problem is.
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u/AquaticCooch 16d ago
lmao they perma banned me because i said a pro palestine mural was not a threat to their safety that subreddit is so out of touch
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical 16d ago
Yeah, among there litany was me saying that Zach from the TryGuys was not a threat to their safety cause he raised some money for UNRWA
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u/Ryemelinda 16d ago
That sub has devolved into non-stop victimization. Such a shame when there's so many other aspects of being Jewish that can be expressed.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 16d ago
I noticed this change too. I originally joined began browsing that subreddit to research Jewish religious holidays (i have a passion for religious holidays- i think they're all pretty awesome and fun to look into ngl) but very quickly the subreddit became less filled with genuine "Jewish Joy" flaired posts and more poisoned with hasbara or extreme victimisation. It's a shame.
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u/Ryemelinda 14d ago
Every once in a while I go in there to deliberately upvote the Jewish Joy posts. Especially the ones involving food :D
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 13d ago
That's sweet of you! I love food so i'd do the same if i wasn't so paranoid about upvoting a Zionist. Shame we don't see many Jewish food posts here to be honest.
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 2d ago
Eh I’m Lebanese American (from a southern Shia village). I love food. I feel it’s safe to upvote food posts. Even if the poster is a Zionist, we all gotta eat.
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u/the_anxiety_queen 17d ago edited 17d ago
As a Jew, this is so embarrassing
Edit: do we (I use the term “we” loosely) really need to be reminded that Nazi Germany burned every book that was considered unaligned with their movement? How are we so blind to the repeating of history?
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u/ignoramus_x Jewish Anti-Zionist 17d ago
When we are being told to fear books & poems of genocide victims - that should set off red flags for anyone who has not yet woken up.
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist 17d ago
I'm morbidly curious about what the comment section looks like.
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u/bit_banger_ 17d ago
I’m going to go check
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u/bit_banger_ 17d ago
Okay , it’s officially crazy Zionists in their echo chambers
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist 17d ago
True.
Controversial question but in your experience, is there more anti-Palestinian bigotry in the jewish community than the general population?
I've noticed that pretty much all jewish subs has a lot of zionists and hasbara.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical 17d ago
I think there is both more anti-Palestinian bigotry and more support for Palestinians in the Jewish community than the general public just because we are naturally more connected to the conflict than the general public.
We also are often forced to form opinions on this and publically declare them (I'm sure this is just as bad if not worse for Palestinians); I am frequently expected to present the Jewish opinion on Israel/Palestine.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 17d ago
Yes, I gotta admit feeling obligated to prove you are a "good" Jew gets exhausting...though in a way I understand.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical 17d ago
I wouldn't even say that I get this in mostly leftist spaces. In just neutral spaces, I feel I have often had the responsibility to explain "what's going on" and my take. My fricken landlord asked me to explain "all the mess in the middle east" to him, just as a form of small talk.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 16d ago
I cannot wrap my head around how your landlord thought a whole regional conflict (that had been pretty much ongoing for decades with no real end in sight) was a good prompt for small talk. That is so bizarre. Does that happen a lot to you?
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 2d ago
Happens to me all the time when someone finds out I’m Lebanese American from a southern Shia village.
I ask: how much time do you have?
And then I’ve got some standard bits I use for 5mins, 30mins, 1hr, etc.
I also ask what they already know about the region.
It’s a burden and a gift. It’s emotional labor but I also appreciate when people are interested in “my” side of the story.
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u/bit_banger_ 17d ago
I think it is the result of holocaust and small community centered around Israel, which in turn is ruled and formed by Zionists. The scare that everyone is out to get the Jews is still present and deeply rooted. They use fear as the tool to keep zionism alive I feel
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist 17d ago
Zionists overtook the Jewish subs which is why places like this popped up in response. It's the classic "make room at the table for everyone and you'll end up with only the worst people". The phenomenon has a real name I can never remember.
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u/neotokyo2099 17d ago
Paradox of tolerance maybe?
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist 17d ago
That's it! Thank you.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 17d ago
This explains what happened to twitter maybe?
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist 17d ago
Exactly. Welcome hate speech and everyone who finds it hateful will leave. I almost used that as an example!
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 17d ago
Fascinating. I'm glad there is a term for it! G-d what a cesspool that has become...I am shocked it is even legal. Then again, nothing should shock me anymore...
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u/_ce-miquiztetl_ 17d ago
If I were a Jew, I would feel threatened by the childish and hateful behaviour so many Zionist adopt when they hear or view the word Palestine. And then trying to take the whole Jewish community as a hostage of their views. That's not good at all.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 17d ago
Ridiculous, embarrassing, and a big part of the reason no one pays attention to actual antisemitism.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 16d ago
All the more reason why I am grateful that this subreddit exists. As i am not a Jew, i don't always know what every single form of antisemitism looks like, or understand when something i see online for example is genuinely antisemitic or just antizionism being made out to be antisemitism. If it weren't for this subreddit, I'd probably still be more or less none the wiser.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 10d ago
Thanks for saying so! And so glad you are here, it is very meaningul that there are peiple like you who haven't bought into the idea that antisemetism doesn't exist because of Israel weaponizing the term to deflect rightful criticism oof the state's actions! It's probably wise to also keep in mind that not all Jews will always agree on what is or is not antisemitic (just as I'd imagine not any marginilized frroup would agree on what is or isn't an "-ism" at times) Individuals certainly have varying levels of sensitivity, background experiences that makes them percirve things are certain way, etc....there's been tiimes I saw something as antisemetiv that other Jews did not and vice versa. That said, it is important to know what the historical tropes are and how to confront them-which is especially challenging in a time where Israel has watered-down the meaning of the term "antisemitism" so tremendously, while at the same time enacting some of the very antisemetic stereotypes we are working to combat.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 10d ago
That's some very thoughtful advice you've given me to keep in mind, so thank you very much for sharing that with me! I come from a rural part of a western European country, so there are not many Jewish people around, and i personally have never met anyone Jewish in real life. This means that from the get go, my knowledge surrounding Judaism in general is incredibly limited (more so than most i would say tbh), which didn't really cross my mind as an issue until i realised how my ignorance could not only lead to me being offensive to any Jews i may encounter either online or irl at any point, but how it could also be easily weaponised by antisemites and people of bad faith (until last year, i didn't realise that being Jewish was part ethnicity AND religion i thought it was just religion, or that there were so many different types of Jews (Ashkenazi, Hasidic, Mizrahi etc) as i had only ever heard of Orthodox and uh- not orthodox 😅). The rise in antisemitism after Israel began it's genocide in Gaza last year following Oct 7th was the push i needed to invest time into educating myself more regarding antisemitism, and Israel's weaponization of antisemitism has not and will not weakened that push.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 8d ago
What a beautiful, heartfelt message! This truly gives me hope among all the vitriol I've seen online this past year (and slowly but steadily rising since QANON got big in the U.S. around 2017...)
It is certainly so incredibly dangerous that very few people around the world have ever met a Jewish person (let alone more than one-ha!)and now likely associate ALL Jews with Israel's actions...and it doesn't help that most people went from knowing nothing about Jews or Judaism to "learning" everything they know about it from 30 second TikTok explainer videos on the history of Zionism.... (many of which sadly do cross over into antisemitic territory...because they are often made by random people making "educational" social media content who just took the "antizionism doesn't equal antisemitism" and ran with it without learning what antisemitism actually is....(i.e. historical tropes like "Jews control the media/economy," etc...) The amount of pretty blantantly antisemetic content I saw reshared by people I once considered allies was a real bummer to say the least....Though I also understand how we got here...
Anyhow, that is all to say thank you so much taking the time to learn more, to build connections, and thank you for being here and being a thoughtful, engaged, loving human!
This will be a long-term struggle because Israel (not the state itself necessarily, but the historical "holy" land...is indeed very intertwined with Judaism (referenced in many Jewish prayers, is in the name of many synagogues, etc...) That coupled with the fact that the majority of the world's Jewish population does live there now (people debate the causes, but displacement is certainly the case for many-though definitely not all!) Add all this to the fact that the current state of Israel has caused so much irreparable harm and I am indeed worried for our future. I am hoping little moments like these can help build understanding, compassion, and a better future for all people.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 7d ago
I'm so glad i was able to give you some hope, thank you so much for taking the time to engage with me and share your thoughts and advice! Not a lot of Jewish people outside of this subreddit are interested in having long discourses with someone like me who knows little about the culture, religion, antisemitism (which i don't blame them for that at all, i can only imagine how tiring and even worrisome that it can be tbh) so i appreciate that you've written me lovely replies to read!
It really is dangerous how very few people have met Jews, conversed with Jews, and established meaningful relationships and connections with Jewish people across the world, and i really hope this is something that will change in the future so that we can all be more united and less divided. I understand though why this is a change that will take time to happen for many reasons such as, like you said, Israel being the home to the majority of the world's Jewish population (and Israel is quite far away from the Western world), Gentiles such as myself coming from different religious backgrounds that influence onto us to try and avoid people from other religions, and the fact that with a rise in antisemitism comes the need for some Jewish people to distance themselves from people outside their own community- even to the point of social isolation (this is of course not the case with every Jewish person, but its something i've noticed more online since last year as a form of what to me looks like self defence/protection. I've noticed many if not all Zionists encouraging this too, probably for a few different reasons).
There are lots of important issues that will need to be tackled before we can all be more united, but i do genuinely believe that we can get there and that the future of the Jewish legacy and even Israel's future is brighter at the end of the tunnel. I for one really hope this will happen in my life time because i'd love to move away from my rural home and live in a diverse community with Jews and Muslims as friends and neighbours like i believe we are all supposed to be. 😊
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u/boredjorts 16d ago
Imagine being threatened by the victims of the most well documented genocide in history. Starving, homeless, sick, disabled people trapped in a prison under constant bombardment. It is the most absurd victim complex I've ever witnessed.
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u/tangerine138 Ashkenazi 16d ago
Damn, I used to be the person that would feel “unsafe” around a display like this. It was drilled into my mind that anything Palestinian was a threat against Israel, antisemitic, and of course full of lies and propaganda. It’s so crazy to think about that mindset now.
It was 100% childish and a failure to actually engage with the history I was taught as a kid.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 16d ago
Well done for being able to break out of that mindset. It must not have been easy having to unlearn lies you were fed from such a young age.
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u/tangerine138 Ashkenazi 15d ago
Totally, i would say it took a dizzying few years of doing a lot of independent reading and having some really painful realizations before i was even remotely ready to engage with the activism scene.
I was also becoming more politically left at the time, but I had a total Israel-defending hang up thanks to years of one-sided history being drilled into my young head.
I often see advice here to refrain from arguing with family and friends about Israel, and let them go on their own journeys. Maybe ask some good-faith questions just to get the wheels turning, but don’t fight. I was absolutely taught to feel threatened by anyone who challenged my talking points. Wild stuff.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 14d ago
Definitely wild stuff, but sadly it isn't rare. Do you reckon that after everything Israel has done in the past year in Gaza, Netanyahu's failure to bring home all the hostages and the invasion of Lebanon and soon Syria, there are many/more Jewish people in the diaspora who are currently in a similar position that you were in when you first began questioning your beliefs surrounding Israel? (assuming you are diaspora by your tag, please correct me if i assumed wrong).
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u/tangerine138 Ashkenazi 12d ago
Unfortunately, if that is happening I’m not seeing it. You are correct that I’m a diaspora American. If people I know are looking deeper, they are doing it silently. I try to be a bridge builder but it isn’t easy, I have to be willing to get berated without reacting angrily (level impossible), and I have to intuit what someone is ready to hear and what is going to make them think I personally planned oct 7.
A few people from my past have already done the work, but keep their opinions mostly to themselves. Many retreated deeper into their Holocaust trauma response and feelings of being personally victimized by 10/7.
People like my mom recognize that this is the worst attack on Gaza she has ever seen, but basically thinks they are getting what they deserve. My family in Israel also seems to think this, although we don’t talk much. My mom’s side of the family has always been very racist towards Arabs.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 12d ago
It seems to me based on your response that it will take time and potentially generations for people (particularly Jewish and Israeli people) to unlearn the racist propaganda they were fed by governments and communities and separate themselves from Holocaust trauma passed onto them by family and society. Time is a healer and I truly hope that this healing will come steadfast rather than slow and that peace will come in our life times and theirs.
I really appreciate your attempts at bridge-building within the community and cannot begin to imagine how hard it is to face criticism for your beliefs/stances from people surrounding you. It may not provide much solace to you but if you ever need someone to vent to or a void to use at a outlet, my dms are always open to you and people like you if you ever need it. And if there is anything you would like to request as a way that i and people who think alike can support you, people who think alike you or even just Jewish people in general, i am all ears. ❤️
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u/reydelascroquetas Sephardic 16d ago
Victimizing themselves when seeing pictures of genocide victims is crazy
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u/Far_Chapter1025 17d ago
Does anyone think that subreddit is totally astroturfed or actually legitimate?
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u/Artistic_Reference_5 Jewish 17d ago
I don't know what to think but it's like a nightmare of Zionist stereotype.
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u/crumpledcactus Jewish 17d ago
They did a survey once upon a time, and it's basically only Israelis who use the subreddit. It's astroturfed and nothing more than an echochamber for Hasbara.
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u/Far_Chapter1025 16d ago
That's actually sort of a relief to hear. I get disheartened when I hear the rhetoric that the majority of Jewish people are Zionists
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u/crumpledcactus Jewish 16d ago
There were two Pew Studies, from 2013 and 2020, detailing Jewish-American's emotional linkage to Israel, in 3 to 4 catagories and by movement (Orthodox, Reform, Secular, Humanistic, etc.)
On the whole, the non-attachmented (low key anti-zionist) share is now at least the simple majority (50%+), and probably is more like the supermajority (75%+) as of now due to the genocide and the older generations raised with propaganda being replaced. Zionism is a no-sale dead concept with anyone who's either non-Orthodox, or under the age of 50.
At YK this year, in a temple full of mostly boomers, the rabbi outright said "there are intellectual discussions we can have about anti-zionism, and all that", but within a certain context. I never thought I would hear a rabbi, amongst older congregationalists, say the word anti-zionism. Collectively, we're washed out hands of Israel.
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u/sulamifff Jewish Anti-Zionist 15d ago
OMG! I just a a little look after ages in the r/ Jewish sub. Every second post is about 'Jew hate', antisemitism etc. when you look into it what they are complaining are some Palestine stickers!
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u/CoolRepresentative65 Jewish Anti-Zionist 12d ago
Education is definitely something to be feared, especially when learning about colonization.
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u/matchacry Israeli 17d ago
i am as pro palestine as it gets, but apparently there is a PFLP member and con artist (Bisan Owda) on the table.
our cause is grounded on the principal of morality, and isn't that immoral? i look forward to hearing thoughts.
also, how do you guys refute arguments of Israeli children being killed? i always feel very helpless in these arguments since, yeah you get it.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
Con artist Bisan? That honestly sounds like a Zionist talking point... maybe you can elaborate?
Which Israeli children being killed? None since October 7 afaik?
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u/Lamese096 Palestinian Lebanese Muslim 17d ago
Afaik?? We use this word in Arabic, if you don’t mind me asking, do you know if they have the same meaning??? I’m really curious. I’ve seen many users on here use it.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
Oh! "As far as I know" acronym!! It just means "as far as I know"
What's it mean in Arabic?
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u/matchacry Israeli 17d ago
Two comments from the original r/jewish post:
‘ “We Palestinians aren’t going away.” Sorry to disappoint, but neither are Jews, and we have thousands of years of experience from the Romans to the Nazis of groups trying to destroy us, and we’re still here. But sure, give it your best shot.🤭 ‘
’ This is my branch. Maybe I'll leave "People love dead Jews" on the table lol.
Look, there's nothing inherently wrong with books about Palestinian culture, but when I see a pic of PFLP member, propagandist, and con artist Bisan Owda prominently displayed it makes me want to puke. ‘
(i’m not supporting zionists lol i’m trying to bolster our arguments)
zionists claim “hundreds of innocent people were taken hostage by hamas. a UNRWA teacher took people hostage in their basement!”
as well as ‘The safety and wellbeing of children in Israel continues to be at risk amid the escalated conflict. The indiscriminate firing of rockets at Israel has resulted in civilian casualties, including Israeli children, caused schools to be closed periodically, and impacted the mental and psychosocial wellbeing of Israeli children. Like children everywhere, children in Israel must be protected.‘ - savethechildren.com
and there are also reports of israelis being displaced from northern israel.
and another point they love to bring up is the music festival.
how do we refute these and make our cause worthy in their eyes? we have to be logical, or else they won’t get it.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
Don't waste your time with people who make comments like this honestly. Save your energy for open minded people who actually seem curious about the Palestinian experience, even if they are currently Zionist.
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u/matchacry Israeli 17d ago
even if i’m not going to waste my time with them, i’d like to know why they’re wrong and how they can be rebutted.
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
I mean in some cases I am not even sure what to say... it's hard to prove a negative? Or disprove a negative? Whatever the case..? If they say "Bisan is a fraud" how am I supposed to disprove that?
If they say unwra is Hamas... how am I supposed to disprove that?
You really can't... point to people that aren't Hamas? Oh they'll point to the one person that had distant ties or was involved. They'll point to a time Bisan said something inaccurate.
One thing I'll say to the person who wanted to leave "people love dead Jews".... no one loves dead Jews more than that sub.
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u/matchacry Israeli 17d ago
exactly, that’s my point. how do you win? you can’t, not against them.
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u/gatoescado Arab Jew, Masorati, anti-Zionist, Marxist 17d ago edited 16d ago
You win by understanding that there is nothing to 'win' in the first place from debating with zionists. I was once a strong Zionist who grew up in Jerusalem and was proud to call myself Israeli. I did not come to reject that ideology and that identity because I encountered anti-Zionists who were really great at debating and could counter all of my rhetorical points. I had these debates all the time online and IRL, and they never did a damn thing to change my perspective
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u/matchacry Israeli 17d ago
Thanks for sharing your story, that really struck a chord with me.
What are your thoughts on Yoseph Haddad?
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u/gatoescado Arab Jew, Masorati, anti-Zionist, Marxist 15d ago
Yoseph Haddad offers nothing of value and should just be ignored. He just exists to tell Zionists what they want to hear. He’s a deeply unserious person
I’ve talked about him with Palestinians from a whole range of political positions, everything from Muslim nationalists to liberal atheists who have lots of Jewish Israeli friends. And not a single one of them takes him seriously
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi 17d ago
You win by not engaging. They sound ridiculous to someone who knows even a shred of detail. Engage with people who want to learn so they'll be immune to the silliness
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u/sulamifff Jewish Anti-Zionist 14d ago
If you are not already you might be interested in other (ex) Israelis anti Zionists who discuss a lot of these topics on how to engage with Zionists and refute some claims while living in Palestine on Instagram @elik_harpaz and @robeloviajwro and on YouTube their channels are The Hebrew Canaanite and Sound of Anarchy
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 2d ago edited 2d ago
Point out the logical fallacy. Not the content. It’s a distraction. Focus on the logic and ask further probing questions. The onus is on the accuser to make their case and provide evidence, not you. You’re going great! Keep your head up. It’s frustrating and has taken me a year to figure out how to handle the convos.
For blatant fallacies I just respond with something like this:
Whataboutism. 1pt. Ad hominem. 3pts. False equivalency. 3pts. Syllogistic fallacy: 5pts.
I enjoy this stuff - I studied logic in school and really enjoyed it.
My Meyers-Brigg type is also “The Debator” lol. I’m Lebanese American and from a southern village that’s been damaged. In the beginning this conflict was draining emotionally but I’ve spent the last year learning and studying and practicing my debate skills again.
I’ve started watching a lot of Chomsky/Finklestein/Dershowitz/Morris debates + other non I/P debates. Really interesting and I’ve learned a ton.
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u/Playful_Tea_5268 Ashkenazi 17d ago edited 17d ago
When they bring up the music festival you can attempt to refute it by pointing out West Bank objectively illegal settlements or the conditions of Gaza since the blockade but then they will just make excuses that Palestinians are violent blah blah blah and need to be occupied and discredit all human rights organizations all the way up to the UN. There’s no point with most of those people.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 17d ago
I feel like there is no point in reasoning or trying to communicate logically with Zionists anymore. I tried to do so for months, and every single time they just hit back harder with hasbara and nonsense. I'm amazed that you're even here, supporting the Palestinians right to live, because at the moment that is so incredibly rare and precious to encounter an Israeli who isn't a fascist zionist.
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u/gatoescado Arab Jew, Masorati, anti-Zionist, Marxist 17d ago edited 17d ago
Calling Bisan a con artist is disgusting. Whatever criticism you want to throw at her hardly compares to the immense good she has done by documenting what is going on in Gaza. And the fact that you say you are as pro-Palestine as it gets and then get upset about the PFLP, would be hilarious if it were not so absurd... If you make such broad dismissals of Palestinian resistance, especially of a group who’s goal is to create a single secular socialist-democracy between river and sea, you are standing in opposition to the cause of liberation. And you are specifically standing in opposition to the Jewish anti-Zionist cause, which favors resistance based more in secular internationalism rather than religious nationalism (but we still support resistance regardless of its source).
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u/Artistic_Reference_5 Jewish 17d ago
Why is Bisan Owda a con artist?
Sidebar, do you know where the name Bisan comes from? (I feel very haunted by this since I learned.)
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u/lalolilalol 17d ago
Violence leads to violence and there are 0 indicators whatsoever about the conflict cooling down. They should be cautious everywhere (as everyone related to the Middle East or zionism, but since Israel is the offender in the conflict, they're the ones who face more threat). Look at the synagogue and the school (Christian) that were attacked recently.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally 17d ago
Are you saying people actually need to be afraid of... library book displays? And who is the "they" that should be careful? I can rattle off any number of statistics or stories about Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians being violently attacked, but that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to at all.
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u/NeitherFollowing4305 Non-Jewish Ally (Christian) 17d ago
Violence isn't cooling down in the Middle East BECAUSE of Israel. They have not only committed genocide in Gaza, land theft in the West Bank and invaded Lebanon but now Israel is also bombing Syria and expanding forces further from the occupied Golan Heights. The Zionist's deserve to feel "unsafe" over a tiny library display at the very least after everything that they have supported in the last year.
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