Questions about Sinwar's Death

[u/PlinyToTrajan]

1. What they thought was an opposing soldier was heavily wounded and armed with a stick, which he threw at the drone. The I.D.F.'s response was to kill him with a sniper shot to the head and then bring down the building with tank fire.

Why haven't any Western journalists asked about what Israel's rules of engagement were? Was it legal to kill what appeared to be a badly wounded, dying enemy infantryman?

1. For months, reporters relied on U.S. and Israel intelligence assessments that said that Sinwar was hiding in a tunnel, surrounded by Israeli hostages, with whom he was protecting himself. This description tended to give an image of an insulated leader cowering in fear while putting ordinary people at risk. Instead, it's very plain that he died by chance, in combat with no hostages anywhere near. His corpse was diminutive; not a man who fed on ample rations. How much has the narrative been distorted?

2. Something written in the June, 2024 Wall Street Journal exclusive about Sinwar's private messages has stayed with me. "'Things went out of control,' Sinwar said in one of his messages, referring to gangs taking civilian women and children as hostages. 'People got caught up in this, and that should not have happened.'" Wall Street Journal, Jun. 10, 2024, "Gaza Chief’s Brutal Calculation: Civilian Bloodshed Will Help Hamas."

The description of the planning for the Oct. 7, 2023 attack as reported by the New York Times in its recent exclusive based on minutes of Hamas meetings went like this:

"At this point, preparations for the attack were roughly a month from completion, according to the June 2022 minutes. The plans included striking 46 positions staffed by the Israeli military division that guards the border, and then targeting a major air base and intelligence hub in southern Israel, as well as cities and villages."

"The leaders said it would be easier to target those residential areas if the military bases were overrun first — a prediction that proved to be correct on Oct. 7."

New York Times, Oct. 12, 2024, "Secret Documents Show Hamas Tried to Persuade Iran to Join Its Oct. 7 Attack."

Did Hamas' high command, including Sinwar, plan a bloody slaughter of Israeli civilians, or did they have a different plan that went awry? Was it or wasn't it in Sinwar's nature to viciously and indiscriminately kill in that manner? With Israel's control of information and limitations on access for foreign press, the full story of Oct. 7, 2023 remains elusive.

Given the materials the New York Times has access to, minutes of a string of Hamas meetings in which the Oct. 7, 2023 attacks were planned, has it given an adequate account of whether Hamas high command intended to perpetrate atrocities?

1. New York Times, Oct. 18, 2024, "What will become of Yahya Sinwar’s body?" "Israel often holds the corpses of Palestinians, hoping to use them in a future exchange with Hamas or other militant groups, just as Hamas has done with the bodies of hostages killed on or after the Hamas-led attack in Israel."

What the fuck?

[u/Artistic-Vanilla-899]

I think it's fair to say Oct 7 was such a tactical embarrassment for Israel they took advantage of the atrocities by framing the story into a subhuman group of hateful savages attacked and terrorized innocent Israelis out of blood lust. Oct 7 was largely a military campaign with strategic objectives. Of course, many of those militants engaged in horrifying war crimes, which is unsurprising given the decades of oppression the Israeli government has exercised over them. I don't know about intent from Hamas commanders or participants that day. Im sure revenge and terror were on some ovtheir of their agendas, to be fair. Also too be fair, Israeli "civil diplomacy" "explains" the events in ways that seek to discredit Palestinian resistance.

The fixation on seeing events of October 7th in terms of normal ethical judgments is less helpful than seeking to understand why they happened. Israeli supporters or proponents of its Zionism are so misguided and self-destructing when they refuse to acknowledge Palestinian resistance outside of simplistic and self-righteousness moral judgments.

I cannot accurately and will not attempt to judge Sinwar. I think it's best to assess and analyze his historical importance as central figure in the story of Palestinian resistance - what made his methods of resistance, what of his martyrdom, how did he rise to leadership, and what led to his decisions and the State of Israel's obsession to discredit and knock him off?

I deviated from your central point. The main point i think is that Israel PR will not tell an honest and fair story. They must discredit him to frame resistance against them as hatred toward them.

I think after asking such and finding truths about the man we can assess the wisdom or insanity of his means of resistance.

[u/blishbog → u/Artistic-Vanilla-899]

Don’t forget he was a scholar who knew Hebrew and translated texts during his decades in Israeli prison. Born a refugee, died fighting on the front line. Just facts no editorializing here.

[u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 → u/blishbog]

Interesting. I did not know Maybe there can be fairer account in death than in life. I guess that's an aspect of martyrdom.

It seems many Palestinian leaders and advocates are highly educated and. Intellectual. By some measures I've heard Palestinians and especially Gazans among the most literate people on earth.

[u/iqnux → u/Artistic-Vanilla-899]

Your points above on martyrdom are interesting. How do you define martyrdom?

[u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 → u/iqnux]

I think it's different in each scenario. Life in Gaza is almost sanctified. Memory lives in in the liberation struggle. Maybe a prominent death that inspires the will to survive is martyrdom. I think it's different with suicidal terrorists who die for the sake of death. Sinwar did not want to die. But he knew he would in tbe resistance fight. I think a martyr must fight for life and venerate it, kind of like Sisyphus? I that way, martyrdom is definitely by a life of activism for justice. In Gaza living is resistance, in the middle of genocide. That's why Al quada are not martyrs. Their murder-suicide was self-serving amd hateful. Death was the only reward, so life neant nothing. What is that life for? A martyr would die while fighting for life. I don't really know much about Sinwar, and could offer an ethical judgment on his methods and I certainly cannot determine how it inspires me to action coming from a different world. Its the Palestinian people inspire them to action, often just keeping memory alive finding joy in life knowing death could happen instantly. The Early Christians are called martyrs sometimes for being fed to lions. They achieved a status and over time now just an ideology out of context. That raises questions about Jews in history forced to convert or suffer or even be killed. They denied themselves the status of martyrs, but cannot be blamed for choosing survival and the death of their historical memory. A martyr isn't good or bad.