r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Oct 02 '24
AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday
It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.
Please remember to pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate! Thanks!
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Oct 02 '24
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u/BearWithScales LGBTQ Jew Oct 02 '24
I got banned from my local synagogue yesterday for saying that I would not share a 'I stand with Israel' post, so I'm sharing my baked goods with gentile neighbours and friends, and am going to do RH, KN, and YK online with a digital synagogue
If you're with family I wish you luck
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
I know that everyone around me is going to be nervous about hate crimes, and I've got a small group of (mostly younger than me) other anti-Zionists at my medium-sized shul. I'm not worried about KHAMASSSSSS or PIJ or Hezbollah attacking us, while a white supremacist on about ZOG and Israel's US-funded war on Lebanon always seems within the realm of possibility.
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u/Lumpy_Importance2236 Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
I'm hoping someone can help me with the loss of a loved one. I have a new-ish friend who is Jewish and she just lost her brother in an accident. I don't know if her brother was Jewish, since he had joined the family as a teenager, but I would like to do something nice for her. Is there a Jewish prayer I can say? A kind phrase or Torah quote to share? We no longer live close to each other so my usual go-to of bringing the family food is out of the question. I am a bit out of my depth here and I'm hoping to give her support during this time. I appreciate any help! Happy Rosh Hashanah to those who celebrate as well!
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u/BearWithScales LGBTQ Jew Oct 02 '24
Sorry to hear that that's a tough spot to be in, you can say zichronam livrocha (may his memory be a blessing) in english or in hebrew
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u/Lumpy_Importance2236 Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
Thank you! Yes it is and I really feel for her and her family. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and I have texted her this! I will go practice saying "zichronam livrocha" correctly.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
To her specifically, you would say to her "Ha-makom yenachem etkh b'tokh sha'ar aveilei tziyon v'yirushalayim"; to her family you would say the same thing except begin "Ha-makom yenachem etkhem".
"May the Omnipresent comfort you amongst the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem".
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u/Lumpy_Importance2236 Anti-Zionist Oct 15 '24
I apologize for my late reply! Thank you so much for writing this out and specifying what to say to her family. Next time I see them I will say this!
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 03 '24
Did Jews in the region of Palestine wear tatreez? The tatreez is an embroidery style that originated in the Palestinian region and today practiced by Christian and muslim rural palestinians. I want to know if jewish people practiced it too pre Israel, and in the case they did if they gave up this cultural practice to distance themselves from non jewish Palestinians after the creation of Israel.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Oct 03 '24
The short answer is no. Palestine was historically made up of various tribes, clans and groups with distinct dress. That includes multiple Jewish communities in Palestine that dressed differently and spoke different languages (Arabic, Judeo-Spanish, Aramaic, Yiddish). The rural Arabic-speaking Jews were not a part of the cultures that wore tatreez, they were known for having very simple clothes.
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 03 '24
What is the origin of tatreez and why was it only practiced by muslim and Christian Palestinians?
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Oct 03 '24
As I understand it all varied by community, location and status. The designs and patterns also changed over time. There wasn't a single Palestinian culture and so there were also Arab cultures including Bedouin and Druze clans that did not wear tatreez. It was also associated with rural villages more than larger cities. As for Palestinian Jews, they simply had their own varied cultural traditions.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
I'm asking for problem-solving with: I feel I can't participate in the U.S. debate about Middle East policy effectively without being able to make accusations that run afoul of the taboo against suggesting "dual loyalty."
My basic commitments shouldn't be controversial: I think that anti-semitism is a despicable attitude, and that simply assuming that because someone is Jewish that they are privileging Israel in U.S. domestic debates is wrong. After all, this would be an injustice both to the Jews I've met (including on this sub) who are quite critical of Israel, and, as shouldn't be forgotten, to apolitical Jews who like many Americans are simply living their lives and taking care of their households and avoiding the fray of political debates.
For example, I made this comment in the New York Times' comment section on Bret Stephens' Oct. 1, 2024 recent piece that was entitled "Actually, We Absolutely Do Need to Escalate in Iran."
"We (Americans) don't understand the Middle East and its complicated interplay of factions and ideologies. Again and again, our confident understandings and explanations have been met with embarrassment. Our intervention in Iraq lasted from 2003 to at least 2021 and devolved into a messy Islamic State insurgency. The total cost from 2003 to 2011 alone was $ 1.7 trillion. Seeking peace, our government told Netanyahu not to escalate the current conflict with Hezbollah / Iran and he ignored us and did it anyway. The answer may not be easy, but it is clear. Our government has no business inserting more American taxpayer funds and American sailors into this quagmire. Doing so is inconsistent with the responsible oversight of funds levied from American taxpayers and more importantly, with the responsible deployment of U.S. armed forces into harm's way. Is Bret Stephens really thinking exclusively about what serves American interests and America's reputation? Or is his partiality toward the State of Israel influencing his thinking?"
The New York Times approved the comment, but you can see the issue: The last two lines could easily get the whole comment branded as "anti-semitic," since I am suggesting that Stephens has a sectarian loyalty to Israel that conflicts with American interests and prevents him from participating in the debate on the same terms.
But I think any realist would say it's obvious that there are a subset of Americans who have adopted certain Zionist ideologies that make them extremely loyal to Israel and allow many of them to easily privilege Israel's interests in foreign policy debates, even over the interests of the United States itself. To me the problem is treating people prejudicially, assuming based on the mere fact of Jewishness what their views are. I agree that this is wrong. But the prohibition gets expanded to prevent even a reasoned argument that a particular individual's longstanding, reflexive and uncritical support for Israel combined with evidence of Zionist ideological commitments affects their credibility in a debate.
Look for example at the IHRA working definition of anti-semitism; it creates a convenient ambiguity about exactly what the prohibition on 'dual loyalty' accusations covers:
"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
I'm not totally sure what you are asking but I don't see anything offensive in your comment even implying dual loyalties. People are using this as a cudgel to shut down debate. Be reasonable and clear that you don't think Jews have dual loyalty, but that your concern is more about politicians (most of whom are evangelical) are prioritizing Israel- and the reason they are doing so is often because of belief in biblical prophecy that has to do with Christian doctrine than Jewish.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
I intend to imply, or explicitly allege, dual or ulterior loyalty on the part of some of my fellow citizens. The difference is that I do it on an individual basis based on evidence instead of a prejudicial assumption that because someone is Jewish, they must have dual national loyalties.
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
Sure, I don't personally have a problem with that, I'd just avoid the terminology of "dual loyalty" in general because it's such a loaded term that will sidetrack any argument. There's also plenty of people who support Israel because of misplaced righteousness rather than loyalty to Israel in particular- I'm talking about people who hate Muslims and think Israel is the way to westernize the middle east or destroy those they see as enemies.
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Oct 02 '24
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u/SerfBoi Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
I’m trying to help my friend find a synagogue somewhere in Indiana or Ohio that isn’t just quiet about Zionism, but actively anti-Zionist. We have both turned up empty handed on this search, and I just want her to have some sense of normalcy going into the high holidays. Does anyone have any suggestions, or know anyone who would have some answers? (Also brand new to this community, and thank you for being here)
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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish Oct 05 '24
Where in Ohio? My Synagogue isn't Zionist.
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u/SerfBoi Non-Jewish Ally Oct 06 '24
Dayton/cincinnati area. Or Indianapolis. Really anywhere along the i70/i74 routes, they’re open to traveling and I offered to host
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I was wondering how people felt about these two articles + twitter thread? They're from a Canadian news outlet I follow. The second is a rebuttal to the first, and the third is a counter-rebuttal. A lot to read haha, but I'm curious about people's opinions.
https://www.readthemaple.com/are-canadian-jews-complicit-in-israels-genocide-in-gaza/
https://www.readthemaple.com/moral-complicity-and-the-bigger-picture-of-canadian-support-for-israel/
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u/ApplesauceFuckface Ashkenazi Oct 03 '24
Nice to see another reader of The Maple and The Breach on here.
One thing I would note about the Mastracci article and Appel's response is that these are two Canadians commenting on the Jewish community in Canada. While there are Canadian Jews who oppose Israel on a more fundamental level than "oh, Bibi is bad but Israel has a right to exist and defend itself", I think Mastracci is correct to point out that we're very much in the minority. And we do not have the same pull economically, politically or socially as the Zionist bloc. I can also empathize to a degree with Appel, I had to go through a difficult period of cognitive dissonance as I shook off the Zionist indoctrination I grew up with, and I was blessedly able to do that more or less in private.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
Yeah! Those two and the Grind have been putting out consistently decent coverage, I drop them a few dollars when I can. I felt like I was going insane whenever I saw the CBC passive voice war crime apologia otherwise... every time Israel bombs something they'll be writing a stream of consciousness free verse poem in the headline to avoid saying who did it. It's good the Maple can have slightly conflicting opinion pieces like this, it's a sign of integrity I think.
I think there is a degree of unease I felt about Mastracci's phrasing, because there are genuine antisemitic goons who use similar stuff as a way to segue into their ideology, but it's pretty factually backed up and he does make it clear that he's discussing their material actions of support, not identity. And it is unfortunately an issue... I think if there were statistics floating around like "60% of Canadian Muslims think it's bigoted to criticize the idea of a caliphate" or "Russian Canadians raise 100 million for Russia as support after it invades Ukraine" people would be rightfully unsettled, but Zionism is more socially acceptable to support.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
I could come up with a critique of the initial article, but I only really have the time and energy right now for a critique of the rebuttal. My critique is pretty simple: it's sophistry. Appel simply sidesteps the core of Mastracci's argument, which is the organized Jewish community provides material support to the Israeli State. He dodges the fact that Mastracci isn't simply making an argument based on what polls tell us about the passions and sentiments, but also that what the polls tell us line up with the fundraising reports.
This is a brute fact of Zionist occupation of Judaic institutions and it is one of the mechanisms by which the Zionist state can interfere in other countries' politics.
The second thing that neither Mastracci nor Appel touch on is hasbara: Zionists donate their time to the colonial project by volunteering themselves as amateur propagandists. Eylon Levy is perhaps the most hilarious archetype of this person, but as a group they provide material support for genocide by trying to gum up popular opposition to it.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
Thank you! Yeah, that's what I didn't agree with in Appel's article - he kind of frames it as "well, the facts say that a lot of Jewish people and institutions support Israel, but it's not real support, it's just posting online and donating money sometimes!" which is still quite morally wrong, and it helps prop up Israel's economy as well.
Also I wish more journalists in general would cover the widespread employment/educational discrimination going on... neither Mastracci or Appel did, I guess understandably bc Mastracci's initial article was already fairly long. It should be way more of a scandal than it is, and I think the publicized cases are a tip of the iceberg because a lot of people are afraid to say anything, or are of marginalized backgrounds already, and don't have the resources to make a legal case out of it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/chilling-effect-pro-palestinian-1.7064510
https://breachmedia.ca/abuse-of-power-hospitals-med-schools-crack-down-on-palestine-advocacy/
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u/4woodfallMA Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
Non-Jewish Zoomer from Massachusetts here. I admire the folks on this subreddit a lot for their courage. I've been meaning to ask you guys, have any of you been disowned by a close family member because of your opposition to Zionism? I was recently reading the comments section of a video that NBC News uploaded to Youtube. The video was about Israelis who have chosen to refuse to perform their compulsory military service to the country.
I found an English language comment, presumably from an Israeli who explained that he knew a girl whose entire nuclear family disowned her for refusing to serve. Have any of you guys guys had a similar experience?
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Oct 02 '24
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Oct 02 '24
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Oct 02 '24
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Oct 03 '24
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Oct 06 '24
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 07 '24
On tumblr Ive seen a post by a zionist stating that those who delegitimize Israel by saying there shouldnt be a Jewish state in Israel before the coming of the messiah are clearly "acting in bad faith" and are gentiles who have no right to tell Jews what to believe. The OP also said its a fallacy to claim religious texts should be interpreted literally.
I want to ask this sub if theres any weight in the argument that a Jewish state in Israel cant be built before the messiah, and if its wrong for gentiles to bring this up.
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
I want to ask about the zionist idea that the modern state of Israel is the direct continuation of the bronze age Kingdom of Israel in the Bible/Torah. Obviously thats a load of bull, but I want to hear from a historian why.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
Well the fact that neither Chaim Weizmann nor David Ben-Gurion were anointed with sacred oil by the Prophet Elijah might have something to do with it.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
I've never heard of that as a mainstream Zionist ideology, even among Religious Zionists. Jews have always viewed it as the Land of Israel, but it's rare to hear those who consider the State of Israel as the continuation of any ancient Jewish kingdom (which is itself not so important in Jewish tradition or religion).
Edit in response to downvotes: The traditional Jewish concept of the Land of Israel isn't based on an ancient kingdom, it's based on the land itself and centered around the Temple in Jerusalem
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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
To me, using the ancient kingdom of Israel to justify the modern state's existence implies there's some direct continuation. Zionists deny the legitimacy of the Palestinian identity on the grounds of it being modern, claiming there is no Palestinian history or historical figures that identified as Palestinian, but by the same standards there were never any historical Israelis from premodern history. Implying that the modern state of Israel has legitimacy because there was one jewish kingdom named Israel 3000 years ago thus implies with this logic that the modern state is a continuation of the ancient one.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Oct 03 '24
But the modern State of Israel isn't claiming to be the continuation of an ancient Kingdom of Israel, this isn't a Zionist ideology. The name of the country comes from Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), "Israel" itself just refers to the Jewish People. Jews have always referred to it as Eretz Yisrael, that isn't a Zionist invention and also has nothing to do with whether there was once Jewish rule in the region.
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Oct 04 '24
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Oct 04 '24
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
Zionism isn't traditionally Jewish, so you can't argue Zionist beliefs from Jewish tradition.
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
I know I'm asking this pretty late, but it's still Wednesday for me and I only just saw a video about this. I remember Simone Zimmerman making a comment in Israelism about the "hot IDF soldier" thing, and I just saw a video on Instagram talking about the sexualization of the IDF(the account was called uncivilized.media). I don't feel like I know enough about this to have a coherent opinion, so I was just curious if anyone here has any thoughts, opinions on this, or experiences where you witnessed it?
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u/Blastarock Jewish Communist Oct 03 '24
Never went on birthright, but the pressure to do so for the purpose of finding a match is very real. ANd the hot idf soldier stereotype is real as well, whether you're pushed to marry an idf soldier or become one to become attractive
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u/wetbirds4 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I’d love to know if you could share some of your favourite dishes? Something that reminds you of a holiday or celebration or a recipe that was passed down in your family that you like making?