"Ask A Jew" Wednesday

[u/AutoModerator]

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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[u/PlinyToTrajan]

I'm asking for problem-solving with: I feel I can't participate in the U.S. debate about Middle East policy effectively without being able to make accusations that run afoul of the taboo against suggesting "dual loyalty."

My basic commitments shouldn't be controversial: I think that anti-semitism is a despicable attitude, and that simply assuming that because someone is Jewish that they are privileging Israel in U.S. domestic debates is wrong. After all, this would be an injustice both to the Jews I've met (including on this sub) who are quite critical of Israel, and, as shouldn't be forgotten, to apolitical Jews who like many Americans are simply living their lives and taking care of their households and avoiding the fray of political debates.

For example, I made this comment in the New York Times' comment section on Bret Stephens' Oct. 1, 2024 recent piece that was entitled "Actually, We Absolutely Do Need to Escalate in Iran."

"We (Americans) don't understand the Middle East and its complicated interplay of factions and ideologies. Again and again, our confident understandings and explanations have been met with embarrassment. Our intervention in Iraq lasted from 2003 to at least 2021 and devolved into a messy Islamic State insurgency. The total cost from 2003 to 2011 alone was $ 1.7 trillion. Seeking peace, our government told Netanyahu not to escalate the current conflict with Hezbollah / Iran and he ignored us and did it anyway. The answer may not be easy, but it is clear. Our government has no business inserting more American taxpayer funds and American sailors into this quagmire. Doing so is inconsistent with the responsible oversight of funds levied from American taxpayers and more importantly, with the responsible deployment of U.S. armed forces into harm's way. Is Bret Stephens really thinking exclusively about what serves American interests and America's reputation? Or is his partiality toward the State of Israel influencing his thinking?"

The New York Times approved the comment, but you can see the issue: The last two lines could easily get the whole comment branded as "anti-semitic," since I am suggesting that Stephens has a sectarian loyalty to Israel that conflicts with American interests and prevents him from participating in the debate on the same terms.

But I think any realist would say it's obvious that there are a subset of Americans who have adopted certain Zionist ideologies that make them extremely loyal to Israel and allow many of them to easily privilege Israel's interests in foreign policy debates, even over the interests of the United States itself. To me the problem is treating people prejudicially, assuming based on the mere fact of Jewishness what their views are. I agree that this is wrong. But the prohibition gets expanded to prevent even a reasoned argument that a particular individual's longstanding, reflexive and uncritical support for Israel combined with evidence of Zionist ideological commitments affects their credibility in a debate.

Look for example at the IHRA working definition of anti-semitism; it creates a convenient ambiguity about exactly what the prohibition on 'dual loyalty' accusations covers:

"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

[u/TurkeyFisher → u/PlinyToTrajan]

I'm not totally sure what you are asking but I don't see anything offensive in your comment even implying dual loyalties. People are using this as a cudgel to shut down debate. Be reasonable and clear that you don't think Jews have dual loyalty, but that your concern is more about politicians (most of whom are evangelical) are prioritizing Israel- and the reason they are doing so is often because of belief in biblical prophecy that has to do with Christian doctrine than Jewish.

[u/PlinyToTrajan → u/TurkeyFisher]

I intend to imply, or explicitly allege, dual or ulterior loyalty on the part of some of my fellow citizens. The difference is that I do it on an individual basis based on evidence instead of a prejudicial assumption that because someone is Jewish, they must have dual national loyalties.

[u/TurkeyFisher → u/PlinyToTrajan]

Sure, I don't personally have a problem with that, I'd just avoid the terminology of "dual loyalty" in general because it's such a loaded term that will sidetrack any argument. There's also plenty of people who support Israel because of misplaced righteousness rather than loyalty to Israel in particular- I'm talking about people who hate Muslims and think Israel is the way to westernize the middle east or destroy those they see as enemies.