"Ask A Jew" Wednesday

[u/AutoModerator]

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

[u/ezkori]

Unfortunately the words we use are flawed. Judaism has (nearly) always been tribal, in the sense that there is a “communal” identity that exists. This identity is probably best described using the modern term “ethnicity”, but this “ethnic” identity is also given to those who convert into Judaism, so it’s not necessarily based on “real” ethnicity always. The answer is honestly that, while the idea wasn’t birthed by zionists, they have co-opted it and, as a result of much of Israel being secular practice wise (even if there is an undercurrent of Jewish religious beliefs in the secular culture) and the nation-state movement, it was eventually bastardized into the ethno-fascist identity that you see today. I’d say probably the ethnic aspect of Judaism is probably most similar to Roma people in that there is a distinct culture (or set of cultures in the case of Judaisms many sub-ethnic groups). Idk this is my (likely subpar) explanation

[u/HusseinDarvish-_- → u/ezkori]

And is the way Jews View their identity is it universal to all jews or do ashkenazi jews in perticular view it that way? Because form what I read europe was alot harsher environment for jew, and discrimination make a community close on itself and this mke cause the formation of a separate identity form the rest of society.

In the middle east and Africa their was discrimination as well but it was far less severe then that of Europe, and that's why the jews during that time were alot more connected and alot less separate than the rest of the arabic society. So this makes me wonder do the rest of jews outside of Europe saw their identity differently? And do you recommend any books made by none zionist authors on the subject? Because it seems that alot of the people covering this topic are covering it form a modern zionist identity point of view

[u/ezkori → u/HusseinDarvish-_-]

Universal to all Jews is a difficult thing, when different groups of Jewish people can’t agree on who is even considered Jewish. You’ll have trouble to find anyone who says that all Jews believe X. We have a saying, “two Jews; three opinions”. Unfortunately it’s not really something that’s super common for there to be a shared culture of a worldwide diaspora. I suppose a similar way to thinking of it would be the Palestinian diaspora in that there is a shared history that caused a diaspora and the result is lots of smaller diasporic groups forming. I suppose the level of integration in their specific communities was varied in those communities. I do think generally in Eastern Europe, Jews were much more isolated whereas in Spain, Germany (pre-nazi), Egypt and definitely probably many other places, there was a lot more integration in the local communities. At least in Germany, this lead to the first big modern “secularizing” of Judaism, the Haskallah. I’d definitely look also at mordechai Kaplan, an American Jewish rabbi who talks of Judaism as a civilization, rather than a religion. I think he makes a lot of salient points. I can try to find some excerpts.

[u/specialistsets → u/ezkori]

Unfortunately it’s not really something that’s super common for there to be a shared culture of a worldwide diaspora.

All Jewish diaspora groups have always shared universal Jewish cultural elements: the same Torah, same religious literature and (slightly differing) religious practices, the same Jewish holidays, the same concepts of ancient Jewish heritage and being descended from the Israelites, etc. All Jewish diaspora groups identified first as Jews, not by their diaspora group (even the definitions and labels of Jewish diaspora groups have changed over time). These concepts were not challenged by any Jewish groups until very modern times, beginning in the Haskalah.

[u/ezkori → u/specialistsets]

Are you elaborating or disagreeing? I’m not saying Judaism doesn’t have shared culture, I’m saying that it’s hard to conceptualize because there are not as many diasporic groups with this large of a population and as much variety in specific practices.

[u/specialistsets → u/ezkori]

I am not disagreeing but also not quite agreeing with the assertion that there is no shared Jewish diaspora culture. The very concept of belonging to a Jewish diaspora group is shared across Jewish diaspora groups.

I’m saying that it’s hard to conceptualize because there are not as many diasporic groups with this large of a population and as much variety in specific practices.

what Jewish groups would this be referring to? historically there has been a cohesive "mainstream" Jewish world (especially for the past 500 years) with only a few small remote groups outside of this framework.

[u/ezkori → u/specialistsets]

I’m talking about the Jewish diaspora vs. other diasporic groups who share a cultural identity. It’s hard to conceptialize on a scale like Judaism because of the sheer size and age of Judaism, as well as the relative size of the smaller diasporic groups. I’m also trying to simplify Jewish cultural identity in a way that still values the shared historical culture while also admitting that the diaspora changed and morphed the sub-cultures. For those not raised in this, it’s a weird thing to wrap one’s head around- this nebulous identity not linked (necessarily) to one nationality or religious beliefs or even necessarily one’s heritage! Jewish identity from the outside is confusing af

[u/specialistsets → u/ezkori]

I think you are talking more about Jewish self-identity than Jewish diaspora definitions. Historically, Jewish diaspora groups identify as part of the broader Jewish world, not strictly with their diaspora group. And not all Jews, both historically and today, fit neatly into common Jewish diaspora group definitions, while still being fully part of the Jewish world.

[u/ezkori → u/specialistsets]

OP asked about Jewish identity re: ethnicity, I was just trying to break down the many many aspects of how someone would Jewishly identity with relation to ethnicity (which of course is far more modern of an idea than Judaism but regardless). I don’t disagree that Jews were primarily Jews and then diasporic but to see all these “distinct” groups, I don’t blame OP for being confused about Judaism as an ethnic identity. Diasporic identities mattered w/r to the level of integration one had in culture and the effects neighboring cultures changed aspects of Jewish practice.

I dunno I think we’re generally talking in circles right now.

[u/specialistsets → u/ezkori]

Ethnic identities aren't exclusive, one can belong to many ethnic identities, including multiple Jewish identities. The distinctness of diaspora Jewish groups doesn't negate the concept of a shared Jewish ethnic identity that is inherent to all Jewish diaspora groups regardless of communal customs and traditions.

[u/ezkori → u/specialistsets]

I don’t think I said that it was exclusive but apologies if I wasn’t clear

[u/ezkori → u/specialistsets]

It’s also complicated when some Jews accept certain people as Jews but others don’t- ie. patrilineal descent. It just makes it hard to have one universal definition for “what Jewish identity is based on”.

[u/ezkori → u/ezkori]

Heck, I even know of orthodox groups who say that ALL reform Jews aren’t real Jews. It’s just hard to quantify when you’ll get different answers of who is a part of the “Jewish” community.

(Edited to add the word all for clarity)

[u/specialistsets → u/ezkori]

This is an ultra-modern (past 50 years) socio-theological phenomenon that some would even call a schism. But it doesn't change historical (past 2000 years) understandings of Jewish diasporic identity.