r/InternationalNews • u/speakhyroglyphically • Oct 17 '24
Ukraine/Russia Videos of Ukrainians being detained by conscription patrols go viral
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Oct 17 '24
Why aren't the men in the crews on the front line?
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u/TheAwkwardGamerRNx Oct 17 '24
If you gotta start conscripting citizens up to the age of 60…shit is not going well for you.
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u/KJongsDongUnYourFace Oct 17 '24
This has been ongoing for the past 2 years tbh. These videos are only now hitting Western media because it's too difficult to ignore.
Forced conscription is slavery, pure and simple.
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Oct 17 '24
Anyone who gets kidnapped like that has the right to fight back, no one deserves to be thrown to the meat grinder, if the government wants to fight a war they can do it themselves.
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u/DatJazzIsBack Oct 17 '24
You must be confused. The Ukrainian government do not want to fight a war at all
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u/ArtifactFan65 Oct 17 '24
Then why don't they surrender
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u/AdDue7140 Oct 18 '24
They don’t want to fight, but they don’t want to lose their sovereignty obviously.
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u/lems34 Oct 18 '24
Ukraine and Zelensky cuts off their men from resources from Ukrainian Embassies in Australia/Canada/UK in order to conscript them. This is not Western Democracy, they are acting like Russians…. They will be Russians. Fuck Zelensky. He already has property in the Hamptons.
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Oct 17 '24
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u/menerell Oct 17 '24
It's easy to say from your couch
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Oct 17 '24
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u/Ostczranoan Oct 18 '24
Shit does being in a war mean you're never allowed to own a couch? Sorry man, that sucks.
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u/Valiantay Oct 17 '24
Sure extend that to women to while you're at it
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u/Informal_Reality1589 Oct 17 '24
While you sit in your comfortable house on Reddit…
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
As opposed to you?
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u/Informal_Reality1589 Oct 19 '24
I mean yeah I’m also sitting at home on Reddit but I’m not advocating for people to be forced to fight in a war and likely die
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
And I’m not advocating that a democratic government willingly subject its citizens to authoritarian rule under a genocidal regime which has deliberately committed thousands of war crimes, countless acts of rape, bombed literally over a thousand hospitals, and is hell-bent on systematically erasing Ukrainian culture and identity, as well as the Ukrainian state as a whole, against the overwhelming wishes of its civilian population.
Same thing, really.
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u/Informal_Reality1589 Oct 19 '24
I mean same I agree I just don’t think either side should force people to fight
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
That would be ideal, but it’s kind of like decrying the Soviet Union for choosing to conscript in light of the German invasion… sometimes it’s not that simple.
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Oct 17 '24
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u/InternationalNews-ModTeam Oct 17 '24
We want to remind you all to keep the discussions here civil and respectful. Please avoid name-calling, passive-aggressive comments, and any form of personal attacks. If you come across any inappropriate messages, please report them instead of responding with a retort. Let’s maintain a positive and constructive environment and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith until proven otherwise.
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u/Moist-Spread1510 Oct 17 '24
Please go , you go grab your shit go and leave us alone, I see legit people who don’t want to fight , I see legit people who actually want to fight , that’s a personal decision to be discussed only with your own soul, go to war is not something to play video games , is not for everyone not because you will die , because you will take shit, storms, rain , cold , hunger and many other shit that you all probably know but what cost you to take a life? Yes it’s the enemy he is traspassing my border, he is invading but maybe the enemy is in the same position as you someone forced to be drafted who doesn’t want to be there so please stop making fucking points about this without knowing.
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u/Logical-Volume9530 Oct 17 '24
Yeah, in this moment they also need the most help they can get. Why are you on reddit and not helping them, since you're so empathetic with the cause?
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Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
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u/jsfuller13 Oct 17 '24
Are there any reasons why people might genuinely disagree with you besides being Russians? I'm not Russian. I disagree with you.
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u/Personal-Expert3395 Oct 17 '24
I agree with you their are many that volunteered with the mindset that they will serve for certain period of time before switching to someone else but because they are people that escaped those that volunteered are staying for far longer but I also thing it’s kinda childish to call anyone disagreeing with you Russian
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u/Pre_spective Oct 17 '24
Are they not fighting for the country they live in?
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Oct 17 '24
Nobody should be dragged to fight in a war against their will, period
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u/Pre_spective Oct 17 '24
Pretty sure that’s how war works
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Oct 17 '24
Conscripts make poor soldiers. Look at the modern IDF and the USA in Vietnam. Turns out people who don't want to fight aren't good at it.
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u/_Kiith_Naabal_ Oct 17 '24
You sure? How do you know?
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Oct 17 '24 edited Nov 25 '24
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u/Pre_spective Oct 17 '24
So when ww2 happened how many people willingly dragged themselves into that war?
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u/Logical-Volume9530 Oct 17 '24
smooth brain gang!!!
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u/Pre_spective Oct 17 '24
Literally mass conscriptions, to fight for their country.
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u/_Kiith_Naabal_ Oct 17 '24
In US, hell, even in Russia, if you are a draft dodger, you will go to court and be judged. Whatever the sentence is, there is a trial. Ukraine is just kidnapping people on the street and sending it to the frontline. And like even they say, they die between 3 days to 3 weeks. You are defending this like an authentic keyboard warrior, because if it was you being kidnapped like that, you would be squealing and kicking like a dying pig.
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u/AgentGrange Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Conscription is slavery, and fragging works. A society that is not able to motivate its own citizens to fight for it of their own volition is fundamentally not worth dying for and should not exist. That's true whether it's America in Vietnam, Russia, Israel, or Ukraine.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
…Would you say the same about the Soviet Union conscripting their own citizens to fight the Nazis? That we should have let the Nazis conquer Eastern Europe?
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u/AgentGrange Oct 19 '24 edited Oct 19 '24
Entirely different scenario that you need to examine from a dialectical materialist lens. The Nazis were waging a war of extermination against all of Eastern Europe for explicately settler-colonial purposes. Regardless of my own stance on conscription I'm not going to browbeat the Soviets for taking necessary actions the face of industrialized genocide. Despite what western press says about the "Russian orcs" even their worst offenses pale in comparison to those of the Third Reich.
Secondly, the soviet's had a fundamentally different mentality toward conscription and military service than we have today. By Leninist doctrine, professional soldiery were effectively mercenaries beholden to the capital holding class. To them swapping to a purely professional volunteer military would take out the working class influences from the military and create a counterrevolutionary institution. For example, commissars weren't only there to manage conscripts but were also charged with making sure the professional soldiers continued to act in the service of the people and the party rather than their own interests as military men. They didn't want any military juntas or having the professional officers make decisions that they felt should be decided by the will of the people. Meanwhile they saw traditional bourgeois conscription as essentially a continuation of peasant levies dominated by class hierarchy. To the Soviets, the conscript based Red Army was neither-- it was a workers militia where heirarchy was determined by ideological rigorousness. There was a difference to them between being forcibly enslaved under the rule of an aristocratic officer corps to serve capitalist needs and their system where everyone was (theoretically) at the same level as civilian militia and were fighting as an organic arm of the workers committees. We can argue about if that was right or not, but ultimately the soviet red army is not comparable to modern conscription both in form and function. It's faults and merits should be judged on their own or in comparison to modern western conscription policies, but should not be listed as an example of western conscription.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Okay, interesting points. I have a lot of respect for people who take the time to write long, detailed responses.
I’m just saying that there are examples throughout history where most people would try to justify conscription. What about… what about Britain conscripting during WW2? Was that justified? Or Greece conscripting in light of the Italian invasion?
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u/AgentGrange Oct 20 '24 edited Oct 20 '24
I'll admit that I'm not as familiar with those two examples so take my critique with a grain of salt here. I can't speak for Greece at the time but I know a bit about the British side of it. To my understanding British conscription had many carve-outs for conscientious objectors that were British citizens that included alternatives to active duty service, moreso than other allied nations. There's something to be said though about how Britains contributions during the war weren't determined by sure mobilization numbers but by advanced military innovation. It wasn't like the Great War where conscripts were being sent straight to a trench on the front line, since mass infantry was already being replaced with specialist forces like tanks, aircraft, and mechanized units. Most conscript units were used for civil defense roles on the British Isles doing things like firefighting or manning anti aircraft installations. Even when large numbers of infantry were needed the British were actually a bit more progressive in that regard compared to other allied nations by having a massive volunteer-only force made up of Commonwealth troops. The Indian army for example was the largest all-volunteer force in the world at the time and proved that an all volunteer army could be effective in wartime. In fact an inconvenient truth is that a big part of the reason why the British chose to conscript British civilians instead of relying more on properly incentivized volunteers was the fear that it would require accepting more volunteers from their colonies and would "culturally dilute" the "Britishness" of the army. So... They basically preferred conscription at home over making their Home Guard units less white. Make of that what you will.
So the British were a bit atypical when it came to conscription than every other allied army. But you can't ignore the contributions that American manpower made, largely through conscription. The thing is you can both recognize that something could have been in the service of something good while critiquing it at the same time. For example, yes it was good and morally justified that America fought the Nazis-- but that doesn't mean that segregation was good even if it was a segregated military that conducted Operation Overlord. Similarly, we can say that conscription was bad without diminishing the sacrifice that those conscripted soldiers made to win the war. Theres also something to be said about how that volunteer shortfall that necessitated conscription very well may have been due to segregation-- by making other races second class soldiers while denying them civil rights at home you are automatically greatly reducing the people who are incentivized to fight for you. Hell, a huge part of the reason that the draft became so unpopular in Vietnam was the fact that American GIs were being asked to fight for "freedom" overseas for a country that denied their rights at home. It's no coincidence that America has basically been a volunteer only force since the Civil Rights Act. Even when failing to meet their recruitment goals, there is still a consistent pool of volunteers to recruit from who are self-motivated to join the US military now. (We can argue about why that pool is shrinking and fewer people are joining now but that's a whole separate argument.)
I think the argument can be made at the end of the day that the nature of war has changed enough that conscription no longer makes a large enough material difference to justify the moral sacrifice of it. After WW2 it become socially and technologically obsolete, to the point that if you're employing it you are probably either mismanaging a conflict to the point that you are forcing a failing strategy (in the case of America in Vietnam) or you view it as a way of social indoctrination to maintain authoritarian control of your people. Judge for yourself which of those two situations Russia and Ukraine are in, respectively-- neither is particularly good.
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u/DankTell Oct 17 '24
fragging works
So you want them to kill someone who had nothing to do with their conscription as a protest?
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u/AgentGrange Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
"So you just want slaves to kill some innocent plantation owner who had nothing to do with them getting captured in Africa as protest????" They are professional officers leading conscript slave battalions. Forcing them towards certain death in combat often under barbaric hyperexploitive conditions under threat of punishment or violence if they refuse. Yes, fragging is morally justified and there are no "innocent" officers once the military pops the lid on forced conscription.
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u/DankTell Oct 18 '24
Is this an anarchist sub or something? Your ‘plantation owner’ analogy is complete baloney, Ukrainians as a nation and culture are dealing with an existential threat - plantation owners were using forced labor for solely economic gain. What a bunch of overly dramatic nonsense.
Not to mention you’re all in here clutching your pearls about Ukraine in particular practicing conscription, but an odd lack of pearl clutching posts about Russia doing it in the same war. Very much smells like imperialism bootlicking around here
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u/AgentGrange Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
I literally said its as bad when America, Israel, and Russia does it. Also you simultaneously calling this an "anarchist sub" pejoratively and calling me "overly dramatic" while simultaneously accusing someone speaking out against forced conscription as "imperialism bootlicking" really is proof how much liberals have fully metabolized "progressive language" to justify western militarism. I bet you think everyone who isn't in favor of endless war is a "tankie" too huh?
Also I'm not going to let someone entertain that there's a moral difference here because "slavery was just for economic reasons" when there are very real material and economic incentives for the people waging this war on both sides. These people aren't dying to "preserve their way of life and culture", the war can stop at any point of they agree to a reasonable peace plan. It's not a war of extermination like in WW2. At this point they're just fighting to preserve economic resources in Donbas and strategic resources in Crimea. How is that not a form of forced labor for resource extraction?
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u/DankTell Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
Sure it’d be proof of “liberals” doing yada yada… if I was a liberal. We probably align on a whole lot of issues, I just don’t buy into the hug box on this one so I’m alienated as a “lib” for it lol. ‘Western militarism’ oh yea, those pesky Westerners that invaded Ukraine… wait…
Your analogy was awful, period. You aren’t ‘letting’ me do anything when I call out nonsense out for what it is. There are economic benefits for the people waging every war. WW2 was full of them too. I came here because it’s not overrun with Zionists like every other major news sub, but instead I’m seeing its overrun with Putin apologists. It’s gross.
the war can stop at any time if they agree to a reasonable peace
Since you invoked WW2 I assume you know what “appeasement” is, and the history of its efficacy? “Reasonable peace” like when Ukraine ceded Crimea? How can a reasonable peace be made with a nation that has forcibly taken land from you and several others on many occasions in the last 20 years?
it’s not a war of extermination
They are quite literally trying to destroy Ukrainian cultural identity. Separating children from parents to re-educate them on Russian culture and language, destroying cities to be re-built and re-populated by Russians, the list goes on. It’s fits the bill of a genocide by definition - yet for some reason you don’t want to call it that, and would rather the victims of a genocide make a “reasonable peace” with an unreasonable man. Once again I’ll say it is gross.
So yes, you are being overly dramatic about conscription. How can we explain terrorism as a natural form of resistance against an occupier, but conscription is where we draw the line? I guess you just want to wait until Ukraine is a sliver on the map like Gaza and then it’s okay for the people to resist.
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u/saladedefruit Oct 17 '24
Imagine going to a rock concert only to find yourself at the front lines 🥲
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u/lems34 Oct 18 '24
Just like Russians to use Rock N Roll and fun as a trap to force military service. Wait a second we are fighting them. Apparently us American men between 18-60 told Zelensky, NO!! We gave you 18 billion dollars….. apparently it hasn’t been enough….. fuck Ukraine.
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u/speakhyroglyphically Oct 17 '24
Oct 16, 2024 - "Videos of Ukrainian men resisting detention at a rock concert in Kyiv have gone viral, as conscription patrol teams say they detained men with missing documentation to exempt them from the war."
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u/DependentFeature3028 Oct 17 '24
But western media told me this is only happening in Russia
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u/KJongsDongUnYourFace Oct 17 '24
Western media would never lie to you. Ukraine has actually killed 700,000 Russians, mostly with pickle jars. They wouldn't need to conscrip like this
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Why are you talking about the Ukrainian Genocide like this?
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u/KJongsDongUnYourFace Oct 19 '24
Why have there been less civilian casualties in Ukraine compared to Gaza despite this being a much larger conflict. Weird genocide no?
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
We don’t. There are very likely more civilian casualties in Ukraine than in Gaza- at least if we go with the 40,000 dead estimate for Gaza. The United Nations estimates 11,000 dead Ukrainian civilians- but that ‘estimate’ isn’t an estimate, it is literally just the raw number of civilian bodies international organizations have managed to not just find, but locate the identify of, and verify them as actual Ukrainian civilians.
Meaning, that 11,000 dead estimate is completely excluding all civilian deaths that may have occurred within the occupied territories throughout the entirety of the war. And given the many, many mass-graves we found from their Kyiv assault alone, each filled with hundreds of dead civilians? And given how this standard excludes all civilian deaths that are simply not able to be catalogued appropriately (i.e, most of them)?
Like, come on. You know Russia has (according to the United Nations) destroyed or, quote, ‘damaged beyond repair’ roughly 80-95% of all the buildings in the city of Mariupol? Within the first three months of the war? That was a city with a pre-war population greater than 39/50 U.S state capitals. And it’s just fucking gone. It got Dresden’d. It got Hamburg’d. Berlin’d, Warsaw’d, Stalingrad’d, Rotterdam’d, fucking Hiroshima’d. It’s just gone.
Over 200 schools were hit within the first three months of the war. The United Nations estimates over 10,000 cases of rape. Civilian casualties likely exceed the amount of people that have died in fucking Gaza, for goodness sake. We have dozens of cases, all spread out, of Russian soldiers firing upon civilian vehicles. Kharkiv has been struck with over a dozen missile strikes every single day for over a year now, almost all of which go on to strike purely civilian targets. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), as of the 4th of April, 2024, Russia has bombed roughly ~1,682 hospitals and healthcare facilities in Ukraine. Over 1,500 hospitals and healthcare facilities. Like, holy fucking shit.
Ukrainian POWs are being released severely malnourished and mistreated. I watched a video of over a hundred Ukrainian POWs exiting a bus after finally arriving back in Ukraine following a prisoner swap, and I do not exaggerate when I say that every single one of them looked like they just walked out of fucking Auschwitz. I’m serious. I actually went and compared real photos of Auschwitz prisoners out of disbelief, and I’m dead serious when I say they looked almost identical.
Russia has been deliberately targeting energy infrastructure throughout the winter, and almost every single fucking day they hit another apartment complex. The global community overwhelmingly agrees they have been, and currently are, targeting highway intersections at rush hour. They are also being tried for simply fighting- which is a war crime. So is driving around in vehicles marked as ambulances, but we have photos of Russia doing that. We have Ukrainian civilians being forced to wear Russian uniforms so they get shot at by Ukrainian troops while they dig mass graves to put the bodies of other Ukrainian civilians who died being forced to dig trenches.
Tens of thousands of Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and deported to what are literally called ‘re-education’ camps within Russia- hastily made prisons built out of former convention centres, and the like. There are dozens of reports of them being forced to listen to the Russian national anthem on repeat, being forbidden to speak Ukrainian, being told their parents abandoned them, etc. Do you not know just how many people… children, even… report not just witnessing torture take place, but being tortured, personally? The sheer rate of human right abuses in these ‘re-education camps’ is actually fucking unfathonable.
There are dozens, fucking dozens of cases of them launching missiles at civilian structures, and then launching a second missile roughly 30 minutes after. All the time. Over and over and over again. This is clearly an attempt to kill firefighters and medical workers- it’s called a ‘double-tap’ strike. Torture chambers are found en-masse wherever Ukraine liberates territory. I know of videos of fucking children, crying, while confessing to having been tortured there. Apparently, the torture rooms for children are just the same as the others… with the exception that they have carpet. That’s the difference. I remember reading testimony (from a fucking child, my god), about a guy he saw hanging from the ceiling, suspended by hooks in his body, with blood pooling half an inch deep on the floor.
There are videos, made by Russian soldiers, of them openly laughing about the war crimes they have committed. We have leaked footage of a Russian teleconference call literally discussing the logistics of kidnapping children. Russian state-owned media regularly features people openly advocating for the deliberate murder of literally millions of Ukrainians. I remember one clip I watched of someone suggesting Russian soldiers systematically drown Ukrainian children in the Dnipro river. Putin literally denies the existence of a Ukrainian identity.
An article was published exactly 48 hours after the start of the war, on the dot, by Russian state-owned media channel RIA Novosti. It called for, quote, the ‘liquidation’ of the Ukrainian leadership; referred to, quote, the ‘Ukrainian Question’ (sound familiar?); and celebrated the assimilation and obliteration of Ukrainian culture. An exact quote is ‘did the old fools at Berlin and Paris think Kyiv would forever remain out of Russian hands? That the Russians would forever remain a divided people?’. Said article was taken down a few hours later, so clearly it was leaked by accident. Thankfully, it’s available on the Internet archive.
It also talked about Ukraine in past-tense, so it was likely published automatically, and intended to as a celebration for when Russia conquered Ukraine, which explains the to-the-minute perfect timing. It also just goes to show they really did intend to conquer Ukraine in mere days. Which makes sense, we found parade uniforms in the 60 kilometer long tank column that rode in a straight line directly towards Kyiv from the minute the war began, after all. You know, the one Ukraine blunted entirely?
We have over a dozen instances of Ukrainian soldiers being castrated- one of them was caught on video, for the love of god. There is literally a fucking example of Ukrainian civilians being murdered in a literally fucking gas chamber by a Russian general. But it’s just the one example, so no biggie, right? There were photos that surfaced of a Ukrainian soldier, whose head was fucking decapitated and impaled upon a stick outside of Bakhmut. They literally directly struck a tiny, 5x5 meter large Holocaust Memorial, in an empty field, with no military targets of any kind around for miles. It was just a small circle with a statue in the middle, dedicated to a massacre that occurred in that very field, It was less than five meters wide, and yet the very top of the statue was struck directly by an artillery shell, blowing it to pieces. A fucking Holocaust Memorial.
What does all that tell you?
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Oct 19 '24
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Oct 19 '24 edited Oct 19 '24
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Oct 19 '24
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We want to remind you all to keep the discussions here civil and respectful. Please avoid name-calling, passive-aggressive comments, and any form of personal attacks. If you come across any inappropriate messages, please report them instead of responding with a retort. Let’s maintain a positive and constructive environment and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith until proven otherwise.
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We want to remind you all to keep the discussions here civil and respectful. Please avoid name-calling, passive-aggressive comments, and any form of personal attacks. If you come across any inappropriate messages, please report them instead of responding with a retort. Let’s maintain a positive and constructive environment and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith until proven otherwise.
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We want to remind you all to keep the discussions here civil and respectful. Please avoid name-calling, passive-aggressive comments, and any form of personal attacks. If you come across any inappropriate messages, please report them instead of responding with a retort. Let’s maintain a positive and constructive environment and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith until proven otherwise.
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u/CyonHal Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Yeah conscription into a losing war with a high casualty rate is a great way for fragging to start, Ukrainian officers better sleep with one eye open
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u/Stacysguyca Oct 17 '24
More drama funded by the USA
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
What.
…How is Russia’s war somehow America’s fault? What the hell are you even talking about???
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u/Stacysguyca Oct 19 '24
Get your head out of the sand
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Oh, so you have no response. Great.
I have spent more than two years desperately trying to make that logic work. I have heard almost every single major argument people have ever made to try and say that the West is in any way responsible for the war in Ukraine, in any fashion beyond ‘they failed to stop it’, which is a far cry from causing it, and certaintly from making you responsible for it.
They all failed.
Fact is, this is the fault of Russia, and nobody else. Obviously… that should be apparent to anybody who has any capacity to be honest with themselves.
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u/Stacysguyca Oct 19 '24
The Ukraine is a puppet state for the US. So it gets really tangly.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Literally, it is not. That’s… ridiculous. Belarus is hardly even a puppet state… though I’d probably still call it that, even then, it’s only just.
…And why are you calling it ‘The Ukraine’? It’s just ‘Ukraine’. The phrase ‘the Ukraine’ is a leftover from the Soviet Union- it’s a Russian perversion that is meant to imply Ukraine isn’t a valid state… just call it ‘Ukraine’.
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u/Stacysguyca Oct 19 '24
Ukraine is a puppet state. You seem like the type to believe everything spoon fed to you on CNN lol
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
And you seem like the type to exclusively get their information from so-called ‘third parties’ that are totally unbiased and totally aren’t paid by Russia, or have a very distinct political advantage to spreading Russian propaganda.
You also didn’t address my point about how saying ‘the Ukraine’ is basically just spreading deliberate Russian propaganda.
Have you consider making an argument, by the way? Because I claim that Ukraine is not a puppet state- and it’s on you, to substantiate that it is.
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u/popularpragmatism Oct 17 '24
Into Zelenskys meat grinder they go, generally after one months training
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u/Row977 Oct 17 '24
Just because leaders and powerful people wants more power and money these young men are dragged into a war like this! Screw this world…
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u/HikmetLeGuin Oct 18 '24
I know Putin's invasion is criminal. But I'm really looking forward to a day when there is peace.
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Oct 17 '24
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Oct 17 '24
Seems like a great idea to give the guy you just kidnapped off the street a gun and tell him to go die for his country... I'm no russian sympathizer but this is pretty fucked up. How bout tell the people doing the human trafficking's in this video to go to war instead.
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u/Personal-Expert3395 Oct 17 '24
I don’t know about this I have mix feelings I don’t think you should force unwilling people but also I believe everyone should fight for their country survival
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u/notnotnotnotgolifa Cyprus Oct 17 '24
No one should fight for any country.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
I take it you believe we should’ve let the Nazis conquer Eastern Europe, correct?
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u/notnotnotnotgolifa Cyprus Oct 19 '24
Well nazis would not have soldiers in this scenario
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
But they’re not going to adhere to your moral standard. And now they’re invading you… do you believe it’s morally just to conscript people then?
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u/notnotnotnotgolifa Cyprus Oct 19 '24
You are talking about they as if they are demons of another species that we can not comprehend. You made a nonsensical comment based on a false scenario where everything fits into your argument, you probably think you are being a realist.
Both in terms of effectiveness and morality forced conscription does not work. People do not want to go to war. They are just meat shields if they do not have the will to murder others for state goals. In this scenario nazis would not be doing forced conscription as well. I or any other person living in a state does not owe that state anything the state is there to serve us not for us to serve it. If you are happy to make sacrifices please go to Ukraine right now and die a pointless death among the masses.
With this logic of yours I can justify slavery if you wish.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24 edited Oct 19 '24
What the hell are you talking about? You just ignored literally my entire argument and started talking about something else entirely.
You are talking about they as if they are demons of another species that we can not comprehend.
What…? Mate, I said the Nazis are not going to adhere to your standard of ‘never using forced conscription’ because, like… obviously? Like, I mean, sure… maybe there is some bizarro universe out there where the Nazis never used conscription. But, like… what even is your point here…?
The Nazis literally used forced conscription. All I’m suggesting in my hypothetical scenario is them doing the same thing they literally already did in reality.
You made a nonsensical comment based on a false scenario where everything fits into your argument,
?????
All I proposed was a scenario where:
A) The Nazis, using forced conscription, attacked your nation. As they did to many nations they would go on to conquer in real life.
And that’s it. That was my hypothetical scenario, and I asked if in such a situation you would support using forced conscription to defend said nation, or not (invariably leading to that nation collapsing and being conquered).
Both in terms of effectiveness and morality forced conscription does not work.
I’m going to ignore the ‘morality’ part because that’s literally what we’re arguing about here. I’ll agree that it is extremely challenging sometimes… but to say it doesn’t work is to ignore the fact that the Soviet Union wouldn’t have won the war without it.
By what standard does it ‘not work’?
People do not want to go to war. They are just meat shields if they do not have the will to murder others for state goals.
You sure are saying a lot of negative (and mostly true) stuff about how bad forced conscription is. I agree… it’s awful, tragic, and messed up.
It’s unfortunate that you refuse to admit you actually support it, however. Because you do support it; you have to- unless, of course, you unironically believe the Soviet Union shouldn’t have conscripted anybody in light of the Nazi invasion.
Which, given the fact that you refuse to address that point… I’m guessing some part of you realizes you don’t.
In this scenario nazis would not be doing forced conscription as well.
…No. Actually, they would be using forced conscription… because that’s the fucking point. You don’t get to tell me the rules of my own hypothetical scenario, lmfao… I’m the one challenging you here.
I’m presenting a scenario and asking you what you think is the most moral choice given the options available to you in such a scenario. The point, is that your answer will do one of two things: oust you as having an insanely unpopular opinion that almost everybody will dismiss on the spot, or oust you as a hypocrite.
That’s what hypotheticals are for. Making a point by pointing out moral inconsistencies.
I or any other person living in a state does not owe that state anything the state is there to serve us not for us to serve it.
So… do you believe the Soviet Union was justified in using forced conscription to fight against the Nazis, or do you think that they shouldn’t have done it, thus letting the Nazis win?
If you are happy to make sacrifices please go to Ukraine right now and die a pointless death among the masses.
The only one saying nations should always choose to keel over and let their population be genocided is you.
With this logic of yours I can justify slavery if you wish.
?????????????????
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u/notnotnotnotgolifa Cyprus Oct 19 '24
Your scenario ignores what I said and puts a situation that would not be happening if what I said was the way of life.
It’s like me saying there should be no atomic bombs and you say its 1940 your enemy has atomic bombs would you not make them??!??!?
In my scenario the way we live and states function would not put us into such a situation
But even to entertain your idea, no there should be no forced conscription. Funnily enough the main reason nazis rose to power was due to forced conscription in world war 1
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
…Okay. I see what you’re saying now.
But my point still stands. Again, consider the Nazis invading the Soviet Union. You haven’t been clear about this example specifically- do you think the Soviets should have refused to conscript (thereby leading to them scumming to the Nazis) or not? Answers can be both at-the-time as well as in hindsight, it doesn’t really change my point.
Because I somewhat doubt you really think the Soviets choosing to conscript in their fight against the Nazis was unjustified.
It’s like… it’s like I propose a trolley-problem to you, ‘who would you pick to survive, if you could only pick one group: three old ladies, or one orphan child?’, and you respond by complaining about how people shouldn’t have, to make those decisions in the first place.
I feel we both just missed what the other was saying.
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u/Striking-Ad9623 Oct 17 '24
Exactly. It is tragic. And I don't know what I would do in a similar situation. But imagine being a soldier on the frontline with a family back home. You want others to fight as well.
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u/ArtifactFan65 Oct 17 '24
Narcissism. If you care about your family then take them with you and leave the country
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u/levi_Kazama209 Oct 17 '24
I think most people here will just say let russia have whatever they want as long as people dont die hell let russia have all of europe as long as no one dies.
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u/rd-- Oct 17 '24
Why should Ukrainians be forced to fight and die for Europe? Europe is shedding no blood for Ukrainians.
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u/levi_Kazama209 Oct 17 '24
They are throwing money and aid russia can simoly choose not to invade yet they did all this is russias fault for starting.
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u/rd-- Oct 17 '24
Europe and the USA are paying Ukrainians to die on their behalf. There is one problem though. Money and F-16s, crucially, don't stop conscripts from dying.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Ukraine is choosing to fight of its own voalition. We’re simply failing to give them enough to win, because of our own petty internal power struggles… but we’re not forcing them to do anything.
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u/levi_Kazama209 Oct 17 '24
That still dosent solve the problem that all of this is russias fault they can stop the bloodshed anytime they want. In the end do we give russia whatever they want to end bloodshed no matted how unreasonable fhe request.
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u/rd-- Oct 17 '24
Damn, that was so convincing even I now feel motivated to enlist on the front lines of Ukraine.
2
u/levi_Kazama209 Oct 17 '24
sarcasm is unbiffiting if you disagree then just say so and tell me why.
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u/rd-- Oct 17 '24
Let me put it more succinctly:
Europe, the entity you believe a random Ukrainian cares about, is apparently under threat by Russia. Europe, in response to this existential threat to themselves, has given Ukraine <100 fighter jets to fight Russia's 3,000+.
I'm sure if the police officer had simply said all this, the Ukrainian would have stopped resisting and agreed it is infact worth being immediately bombed by Russian air superiority; inspired of course by the spare Jets Europe graciously gave to match his sacrifice.
Ukraine should hire you, this is convincing as fuck.
0
u/DankTell Oct 17 '24
I get that you’re saying Europe/US is using Ukraine as a proxy/buffer against Russia (which I agree with) but that doesn’t really address the fact that they were invaded… they fought back before any of the F-16s or HIMARS or Leopards or anything else arrived. So am I to understand that you believe Ukrainians would roll over willingly if not propped up with Western equipment?
It seems to me like Ukrainians are fighting for the continued existence of Ukraine, and NATO is materially supporting them because it serves their interests.
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u/ArtifactFan65 Oct 17 '24
I'm sure many people would prefer to serve under Russia than be enslaved by their own country. What's the difference.
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u/levi_Kazama209 Oct 17 '24
So just let russia take anything tbey want to end the bloodshed is what your saying that always works well.
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u/Pre_spective Oct 17 '24
Beware rus bots operating in this area!
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
It’s crazy how much pro-Russia simping there is in this sub. It’s like people here apply a completely different standard of logic to Ukraine than they do to literally anything else.
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u/BobdeBouwer__ Oct 17 '24
Well it's good they fight invading Russia. But imo you can never force a person to risk his life.
If they are short on soldiers there is only one solution and that is to retreat.
Another thing Ukraine could do is offer Russia a corridor to Nato borders in exchange for being left alone. The only problem is the Russian snake can never be trusted.
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u/ionetic Oct 17 '24
People may complain, but this is what you get when the West refuses to send the weapons Ukraine has been asking for to strike Russia’s military bases over the border.
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
Why exactly should western taxpayers continue to fund Ukraine’s defense?
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Because arguing about whether it’s financially worth it to stop a genocide is fucking evil?
Holy shit. This is blatant pro-Russian commentary… you people make me feel sick.
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Oct 19 '24
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
You know Russia has (according to the United Nations) destroyed or, quote, ‘damaged beyond repair’ roughly 80-95% of all the buildings in the city of Mariupol? Within the first three months of the war? That was a city with a pre-war population greater than 39/50 U.S state capitals. And it’s just fucking gone. It got Dresden’d. It got Hamburg’d. Berlin’d, Warsaw’d, Stalingrad’d, Rotterdam’d, fucking Hiroshima’d. It’s just gone.
Over 200 schools were hit within the first three months of the war. The United Nations estimates over 10,000 cases of rape. Civilian casualties likely exceed the amount of people that have died in fucking Gaza, for goodness sake. We have dozens of cases, all spread out, of Russian soldiers firing upon civilian vehicles. Kharkiv has been struck with over a dozen missile strikes every single day for over a year now, almost all of which go on to strike purely civilian targets. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), as of the 4th of April, 2024, Russia has bombed roughly ~1,682 hospitals and healthcare facilities in Ukraine. Over 1,500 hospitals and healthcare facilities. Like, holy fucking shit.
Ukrainian POWs are being released severely malnourished and mistreated. I watched a video of over a hundred Ukrainian POWs exiting a bus after finally arriving back in Ukraine following a prisoner swap, and I do not exaggerate when I say that every single one of them looked like they just walked out of fucking Auschwitz. I’m serious. I actually went and compared real photos of Auschwitz prisoners out of disbelief, and I’m dead serious when I say they looked almost identical.
Russia has been deliberately targeting energy infrastructure throughout the winter, and almost every single fucking day they hit another apartment complex. The global community overwhelmingly agrees they have been, and currently are, targeting highway intersections at rush hour. They are also being tried for simply fighting- which is a war crime. So is driving around in vehicles marked as ambulances, but we have photos of Russia doing that. We have Ukrainian civilians being forced to wear Russian uniforms so they get shot at by Ukrainian troops while they dig mass graves to put the bodies of other Ukrainian civilians who died being forced to dig trenches.
Tens of thousands of Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and deported to what are literally called ‘re-education’ camps within Russia- hastily made prisons built out of former convention centres, and the like. There are dozens of reports of them being forced to listen to the Russian national anthem on repeat, being forbidden to speak Ukrainian, being told their parents abandoned them, etc. Do you not know just how many people… children, even… report not just witnessing torture take place, but being tortured, personally? The sheer rate of human right abuses in these ‘re-education camps’ is actually fucking unfathonable.
There are dozens, fucking dozens of cases of them launching missiles at civilian structures, and then launching a second missile roughly 30 minutes after. All the time. Over and over and over again. This is clearly an attempt to kill firefighters and medical workers- it’s called a ‘double-tap’ strike. Torture chambers are found en-masse wherever Ukraine liberates territory. I know of videos of fucking children, crying, while confessing to having been tortured there. Apparently, the torture rooms for children are just the same as the others… with the exception that they have carpet. That’s the difference. I remember reading testimony (from a fucking child, my god), about a guy he saw hanging from the ceiling, suspended by hooks in his body, with blood pooling half an inch deep on the floor.
We have mass graves filled with literally hundreds of civilian bodies, many with their hands bound, being found in liberated territories. Bucha wasn’t the only massacre… it’s just the most well-known. Every other day we detect a new one that wasn’t there yesterday suddenly appearing in the occupied territories- ominously filled in holes in church yards and stuff. We see them appear on satellite feed. How do you explain a hole in the ground filled with 500 dead civilians… curiously, where 95% of which were women? Ages ranged from 80 year old grandmas to 6 year old girls. I’ve literally seen fucking photos of it.
There are videos, made by Russian soldiers, of them openly laughing about the war crimes they have committed. We have leaked footage of a Russian teleconference call literally discussing the logistics of kidnapping children. Russian state-owned media regularly features people openly advocating for the deliberate murder of literally millions of Ukrainians. I remember one clip I watched of someone suggesting Russian soldiers systematically drown Ukrainian children in the Dnipro river. Putin literally denies the existence of a Ukrainian identity.
An article was published exactly 48 hours after the start of the war, on the dot, by Russian state-owned media channel RIA Novosti. It called for, quote, the ‘liquidation’ of the Ukrainian leadership; referred to, quote, the ‘Ukrainian Question’ (sound familiar?); and celebrated the assimilation and obliteration of Ukrainian culture. An exact quote is ‘did the old fools at Berlin and Paris think Kyiv would forever remain out of Russian hands? That the Russians would forever remain a divided people?’. Said article was taken down a few hours later, so clearly it was leaked by accident. Thankfully, it’s available on the Internet archive.
It also talked about Ukraine in past-tense, so it was likely published automatically, and intended to as a celebration for when Russia conquered Ukraine, which explains the to-the-minute perfect timing. It also just goes to show they really did intend to conquer Ukraine in mere days. Which makes sense, we found parade uniforms in the 60 kilometer long tank column that rode in a straight line directly towards Kyiv from the minute the war began, after all. You know, the one Ukraine blunted entirely?
We have over a dozen instances of Ukrainian soldiers being castrated- one of them was caught on video, for the love of god. There is literally a fucking example of Ukrainian civilians being murdered in a literally fucking gas chamber by a Russian general. But it’s just the one example, so no biggie, right? There were photos that surfaced of a Ukrainian soldier, whose head was fucking decapitated and impaled upon a stick outside of Bakhmut. They literally directly struck a tiny, 5x5 meter large Holocaust Memorial, in an empty field, with no military targets of any kind around for miles. It was just a small circle with a statue in the middle, dedicated to a massacre that occurred in that very field, It was less than five meters wide, and yet the very top of the statue was struck directly by an artillery shell, blowing it to pieces. A fucking Holocaust Memorial.
What does all that tell you?
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u/ionetic Oct 17 '24
Russia’s repeat many times that they’re not stopping with Ukraine.
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
You believe Russia is going to attack NATO and trigger WW3……?
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
I mean, if he’s not, then clearly there isn’t a risk of NATO intervening in Ukraine directly (as in, directly destroying Russian troops with their thousands of F-class fighter jets)… so surely you support that, right?
It would end the war in a week… and given that Ukraine’s leadership is unwilling to surrender, it would save more lives than any other possibility. Right?
Surely?
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Oct 19 '24
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
So… is Russia willing to risk WW3… or not? Because if they’re not, then there’s no risk to NATO intervention beyond standard military losses- of which there would be very little. And if so… then it is perfectly reasonable to worry about Russia potentially attacking NATO.
And China would do nothing. They, are too smart to risk a war with NATO.
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u/Prestigious-Log-7210 Oct 17 '24
I mean Putin is done so he has nothing to lose. No one thought we would be here.
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
I keep hearing from the western media hos unhinged Putin is, etc., then I hear him speak about political topics and he seems so much more calm and articulate than political leaders in the USA and some in Europe…
I don’t support invading people or wars of aggression, but as an American it’s absolutely hypocritical to judge Putin too harshly when NATO literally has Russia surrounded on the western border, and when the western media paints him as this unhinged tyrant 24-7, while ignoring their own support for decades of US wars.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
Holy shit, don’t start talking about Putin’s ‘strengths’. He’s a fanatic, genocidal dictator and an imperialist.
You people like to say you’re ‘just considering both sides’, like that’s somehow a virtue when it comes to genocide.
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u/DankTell Oct 17 '24
You believe appeasement works?
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
Who would be appeasing? The Ukrainian Government is one of the most corrupt on Earth. Ukraine itself is a hive of trafficking, drug-smuggling, and debauchery. Before Putin invaded almost all western media agreed that Ukraine was a political disaster.
Now western taxpayers are just expected to hand over countless $BILLIONS to them, almost entirely without audit or financial oversight, so they can perpetuate a war they cannot win, I guess so weapons-developers can test new battlefield equipment at the toll of human life, in perpetuity?
Nothing adds up about this situation. Nothing. Western governments have been wrong about almost everything during and since Covid, they should not be trusted, especially when it comes to foreign policy.
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u/DankTell Oct 17 '24
Don’t be dense, you know what appeasement is and you know who the west would be appeasing. I don’t give a hot damn about Ukraine’s political corruption in the context of a war of aggression, it’s not a valid reason to invade and annex a country. You sound like Zionists with their “ohhh they elected Hamas!” shit. Where does that line of thought end? The next-most corrupt country can be invaded by their stronger neighbor? Mexico is pretty corrupt should the US invade?
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
You tell me. Mexico allows well-funded and militant cartels to dominate their population, their government, and funnel $BILLIONS worth of narcotics into the USA every single year, the USA could quite easily argue it is in their strategic self-interests to pursue military action in that country.
But back to Ukraine, at what point is enough, enough? How many more $BILLIONS do you personally expect countries like the USA, who are already sitting with over $30 TRILLION in debt, dealing with inflation, to hand over to a corrupt AF Ukrainian Government to wage this war? Should it go on for another 5 years?
Since the USA is basically funding Ukraine's government at this point, should the USA just annex Ukraine, make it the 51st state, and put an immediate end to Russia's war? Or is it just easier to continue milking western taxpayers for endless amounts of cash they have to print out of thin air to fund the war?
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u/DankTell Oct 17 '24
Nah dude there’s no discussion to be had here lol. You are justifying the indiscriminate bombing and missile striking of cities because of the corruption of a government. NO the US shouldn’t invade Mexico, NO Russia shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine, NO a corrupt government doesn’t excuse waging a war that is killing thousands of innocent people. Ffs. Disgusting argument.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
a war they cannot win,
Have you considered Ukraine taking back Kharkiv, Kherson, and Kyiv? What about their recent offensive into Russia proper casually taking more land in a week than Russia took over the past year?
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u/ionetic Oct 17 '24
They’re already attacking NATO countries via various means and nothing’s been done about it.
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
Oh please…. The USA media and government treats Russia so unjustly. China is the country you need to be worried about. Once they begin their military expansionism, shit will get real, and fast. Russia is the distraction, China is the actual threat.
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u/ionetic Oct 17 '24
China learns from NATO’s treatment of Russia, so no Russia is not a ‘distraction’, rather it’s the main event.
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u/Knoscrubs Oct 17 '24
China doesn't give two shits about NATO. NATO doesn't even exist to deter China. NATO is an outdated and largely ineffectual organization built to deter the-then Soviet Union from launching an invasion of Europe post-WW2.
China isn't going to attack Europe. They're going to invade Taiwan. Hong Kong. South Korea, Japan. SE Asia. They are going to take military control of the areas of their region they already have under their political control. NATO will not deter them.
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u/Top_Effort_2739 Oct 17 '24
Russia said Ukraine was a redline and you didn’t listen to them then, why are you listening to them now?
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Oct 17 '24
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u/Gunbunny42 Oct 17 '24
From an ethical standpoint does Ukraine have to listen to Russia? No, not at all.
From a geopolitical standpoint was it wise to cross Russia's red line and try to join NATO? No, clearly not.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
This shouldn’t even be a consideration.
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u/Gunbunny42 Oct 19 '24
But in truth it is.
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u/Gamerboy11116 Oct 19 '24
It doesn’t have any relevance. If something isn’t moral, it can’t be done, at least not without being unjustified… and if something is, by definition, unjustified… you should never, do it.
There is no situation where doing what’s right can ever be wrong because if it was wrong then it wouldn’t be right.
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