r/wec • u/valteri_hamilton • Dec 29 '21
SuperGT/DTM How are gt500 cars so fast?
So my question is basically this, how are gt500 cars so quick while still looking like normal cars. I mean the lmp1 cars looked crazy and ppl tell me that the gt500 cars would be faster at Fuji speedway so how is this possible.
Also if the gt500 regulations really are that good at speed then why weren't they used as a basis for lmh regulations? We could have had silhouette hyper cars going insane speeds.
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u/kwantus Bentley 8-Speed #8 Dec 29 '21
Loads of downforce, they aren't designed to be fast at Le Mans but at loads of downforce-dependent tracks as well; more downforce but less aero efficiency.
Tyres also make a difference; GT500 has several tyre manufacturers competing against each other, something I'd absolutely love to see in WEC.
DTM used to have the same regulations except with a spec tyre; not quite sure about the numbers but the Hankook DTM tyres were significantly slower when they did this combined race at Fuji a few years back
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 Dec 29 '21
Tyres also make a difference; GT500 has several tyre manufacturers competing against each other, something I'd absolutely love to see in WEC.
to add to this, the tyre war is so present in Super GT That the GT500 cars will have as far as driver specific tyre sets, crafted bespoke for that driver, in that car, for that team - it's seriously advanced over there
8
u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
Do you have a source on those "driver specific" tires? Because that doesn't sound very plausible.
Tyre war brings a lot of R&D in GT500, but I seriously doubt they are making specific compounds for certain drivers; it doesn't make any sense.
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 Dec 29 '21
No written sources but its one of those things commentary used to hammer home at like every race
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u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
Meaning, it's probably not true. As much as I liked Super GT commentary (when it was under Nismo TV), Sam Collins made a LOT of factual mistakes in his broadcast, while often parroting the same lines over and over again (gotta pay the bills...).
And the current ones are, kinda meh.
6
u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 Dec 29 '21
His facts were usually spot on, it was the rumours where he made shit up lmao
"oh yeah a privateer mercedes dealer is gonna enter a dtm in GT500, oh yeah wedsport is totally buying an aston dtm" and other such nonsense
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u/desmopilot Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #8 Dec 29 '21
He didn’t make up a lot of rumours much as he regurgitated the ones making rounds in Japanese media.
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u/shigs21 Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #7 Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21
The tires aren't driver specific, but its more like drivers will be works drivers for tire manufacturers, who work together to develop tires. For example, jenson button had a relationship with bridgestone in the past, and so he went to a bridgestone tire team in supergt (kunimitsu). Another example is when James rossiter moved from lexus to nissan, he went to another bridgestone tire team.
in a recent interview, kovalainen also mentioned how tire manufacturers will test exclusively with certain teams from each manufacturer. The development war gets pretty intense.
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u/kinto--un Dec 30 '21
That's pretty much how things work whenever you have a "tire war". But tires being developed for particular drivers is pure nonsense; I don't think such a thing has ever happened in any championship out there.
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u/gyudon27 Dec 30 '21
It comes down to how you want to describe it. The Tyre manufacturers don’t generally make specific tyres for specific drivers, but it can be the result of the process.
The manufacturers will make several families of compounds that will be tested and (generally) whittled down to those suitable for use in races. However, particularly with the stronger manufacturers, several compounds may have very similar performance - but slightly different characteristics in which lead to small but perceivable differences for each driver in warm-up, ‘bite’, stiffness, and drop. Depending on the preference of the driver, and to some extent the step of the car, different teams may choose to use different families of compound/construction (not discussed above). Even within the same team it isn’t unheard of for the individual drivers to have separate preferences, although this can make it tricker for the team to decide qualifying and race strategies.
Over a larger sample size (half season, etc.) the small differences perceived in testing will be seen over a wider variance of conditions and generally a clearer picture of the ranking of the compound families will emerge. Generally as this happens most teams switch over.
I hope this helps.
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u/kinto--un Dec 30 '21
A driver (or a team) can choose a different compound, if a manufacturer has it, and the rules allow it, but no manufacturer ever, in any championship, had developed a compound based on preferences of a single driver, and gave his teammate another one.
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u/gyudon27 Dec 30 '21
I think you are talking past my reply. Please re-read it if you are interesting in understanding how things work in Super GT.
Source: I am an engineer working in Super GT.
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u/achio Dec 29 '21
Yes I mean, GT500 silhouette cars have the pace of NON-HYBRID (this is very important for the conversation) Le Mans Prototype, and it nearly became the blueprint for DTM if there weren't a mass manufacturer exodus at DTM back at that time, which forced DTM to switch back to GT3-spec cars.
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u/Derpy_Bech Dec 29 '21
Late stage DTM and GT500 ran basically the same regulations dubbed “class one” already, with some minor differences like power and tyres between them
15
u/DismalMode7 Dec 29 '21
racing designed carbon monocoque + state of art aero + state of art michelin/bridgestone + powerful and efficient engine + lot of support from factories.
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u/hasthisusernamegone Dec 29 '21
Who is telling you this? A quick Google shows the 919 and TS050 were lapping around the 1:23 mark, while the GT500 outright lap record is 1:27.1.
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u/kwantus Bentley 8-Speed #8 Dec 29 '21
They often got compared to LMP2's pace-wise, which is pretty similar to the current LMH/LMDh cars
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u/gyudon27 Dec 30 '21
I fully agree with you on the subject of lmp1s being quicker, but the outright record at Fuji for GT500s is 1’25.7, just wanted to point that out.
Also, as a function of their purposes and tracks they race on, the GT500 cars likely accept a higher drag penalty to run slightly more downforce. In fact, you can even see this balance within the 3 types of GT500 car, as the Toyota, which is generally quick at Fuji, have less drag (and downforce) than the Nissan or Honda. The only other circuit on the calendar that prioritizes L/D over outright downforce is Suzuka, which I suspect is different the the WEC calendar. I suspect the distance adjusted gap for somewhere like Le Mans would be much larger, and somewhere like Autopolis would be smaller.
The other aspect with Fuji is season/temperature. Need to compare in similar conditions, as this will affect lap times by about a second (and more when wind is factored in). WEC raced in mid October, I don’t think we (Super GT) have raced in that season at Fuji recently, but generally temps are most similar to November.
Anyway, I always find it fun (although not very useful) to compare different categories like this!
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u/DismalMode7 Dec 29 '21
infact gt500 able to match old lmp1 timelaps at fuji is a fake myth carried on mainly by people who knows little about gt500/lmp1
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u/PlanepHDN Dec 29 '21
Isn't current LMP2 faster than LMP1s from like 2012-2013? I think the comparisons were made between those early LMP1 cars , in which case the point stands. I don't remember anybody saying GT500s lapped as fast as the late 919 and TS050, but rather being on par or just faster than the LMP2 cars.
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u/razgriz2520 Toyota Gazoo GR010 #7 Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 30 '21
Yeah, people were comparing GT500 with LMP2 (..and some NON-HYBRID LMP1), not the Hybrid LMP1 monsters.
I'd say GT500 is very much comparable to early diesel LMP1 cars and the current LMH cars. Maybe not so much with the straight line (although the Supra GT500 can probably do that since its using a low downforce setup compared to NSX-GT & GT-R GT500) but they will give them a run for the money on more downforce related tracks.
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u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
Depends on which year LMP1 you are talking about. Prior to 2015, GT500 was almost equal to LMP1 at Fuji, afterwards, 2-5s slower, depending on a year, with qualifying and race laps being proportionate.
Which is quite impressive for a car that's 200kg heavier, much less powerful, and not as aerodynamic as LMP1, while costing much less. And remember that GT500 got pegged back almost every year, just as LMP1.
GT500 slots somewhere between the fastest LMP1 hybrid, and the fastest LMP2, with LMH close behind.
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u/DismalMode7 Dec 29 '21
actual gt500 specs debuted in 2014, so it's pointless to compare it with different cars of previous seasons...
2014 fastest fuji gt500 pole: 1.28.8
2014 lmp1 pole: 1.26.8 (which is an average time, absolute time was faster)
2015 fastest fuji gt500 pole: 1.28.0
2015 lmp1 pole: 1.22.7 (again average time, not fastest absoute time)gt500 cars were about 3 seconds slower even in 2019 when toyota was heavily nerfed by the new handicap system.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact... people who thinks that gt500 timelaps were comparable to lmp1 timelaps are just people who don't know what they're writing about... it's just a fake myth that pops up here and there sometime.
And you're wrong about the power... gt500 had powers close to 700hp in first years of introduction of NRE engine that went down to the actual 650hp only later with progressive fuel flow rate cut, while 2014-2019 hybrid lmp1 were in the range of >1000hp only during hybrid boost (that couldn't go over a certain amount of cumulative MJ according to the track length) normally their ICE power was in the range of 600hp and those times are actually conservative since lmp1 drivers had to lift off all the time at the end of long straights.
In their short golden age 2014-2017, work lmp1 were just on a league on their own... slower only than f1.-1
u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
Thank you for the downvote, and for proving my point.
Also, it was foolish of me to not read the username before replying....I bow before you, steely eyed missile man! May the downforce be with you!
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Dec 29 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
I get paid five rubles per upvote. And you did confirm my point (provided your numbers are correct) - GT500 is 2-5s slower than LMP1, and almost equal to pre-2015 LMP1.
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u/DismalMode7 Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 29 '21
you just confirmed how stupid is to compare 2014-actual gt500 cars to pre-2014 lmp1... complete different specs of different ages... according to your silly logic why don't we compare also suzuka timelaps of actual gt500 with old groupC? lol.Whatever you get paid or not, are undeserved money.
If you want to compare pre-2014 lmp1, you need it to compare to pre-2014 gt500 as well, that comparison makes sense since petrol lmp1 cars were using same NA engines specs of gt500 cars, but you're too ignorant to know details like that...
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u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
That's an interesting way to twist and interpret my words. I guess English is your 3rd language or something.
But let's forget all that; tell me, what color is your underwear?
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u/kinto--un Dec 29 '21
On average, GT500 is 2-4s slower than the best LMP1. So, comparable, but certainly not faster than LMP1. Although, faster than LMH. And to be noted, GT500 has less power than LMP1/LMH.
As for why they weren't used instead LMH....probably because ACO doesn't want to accept other people's ideas. That's why they need 5 years to finally accept DPI (as LMDH), and 3 years to accept GT3. They are reactive and stubborn, instead of being proactive and open-minded. They listen to a few manufacturers which have committed to WEC (or are "considering" it), instead of coming up with fresh, new ideas.
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u/Trololman72 Peugeot 9X8 #93 Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21
I think that's a bit of an unfair way to think about it. The ACO has the luxury of holding the biggest motorsports event of the year, so it makes total sense that they'd use their own regs.
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u/kinto--un Dec 30 '21
It's not unfair at all, because ACO has had their heads up their rear ends for the last decade or so, ignoring what mattered and catering to a handful of manufacturers who were paying/investing enough, while ignoring everyone and everything else.
Also, I hate to break it to you, but Le Mans isn't the biggst motorsport event of the year.
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u/flan-magnussen Dec 29 '21
It's basically everything. High tire grip from the tire war, lots of downforce (though I think this has been cut back some in recent years), low weight (I think around 500 lbs less than a GTE car!), and high horsepower with the 2.0L turbo engines compared to current GT cars.
In horsepower and weight it's much more like a Glickenhaus LMH than a GTE car.
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 Dec 29 '21
A lot of people here writing essays nobody asked for about GT500 vs LMP1 speeds but I believe the actual comparisons from the time were that GT500s were roughly equal to, or slightly faster than, the leading non-hybrid LMP1 (which at the time was the Rebellion R-One)
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u/valteri_hamilton Dec 29 '21
And that's still very impressive because even the non hybrid lmp1s looked crazy
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u/shigs21 Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #7 Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21
Sam collins wrote some great articles on racecar engineering about the 2017MY GTR , NSX , and LC500
basically, they are carbon tubbed prototypes with car bodywork. they actually have some extra development freedom compared to Regular DTM class one, and the manufacturers Commit lots of resources to make them faster through aero and Engine development.
Not only that, they have HUGE commitments from Bridgestone, Michelin, Yokohama, and Dunlop all competing against each other to build the best tires. teams will have specialized tire development programs to suit their cars. Its pretty nuts. Heikki kovalainen had a great interview where he mentioned that Driving in GT500 requires a lot of personal commitment because they work with the manufacturers so much and do lots of testing.
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u/Theiiaa Dec 29 '21
while still looking like normal cars.
From the outside it may look like this to an unobservant observer, but it is not.
These cars are silhouettes, and although the original design has very little influence (some areas must remain similar to those of the production car) the aerodynamics are truly advanced.
Nismo in 2018 stated that the 2015 cars were generating 1430kgf of load at 250km/h, and (I believe) today's cars are at even higher levels given the even lower times of around 2-3 seconds depending on the circuit.
gt500 cars would be faster at Fuji speedway
Faster than what?
The new hypercars? Probably.
Old LMP1s? No.
And don't get me wrong, the GT500s in cornering speed were superior to the 2018 LMP1s, despite weighing +1100kg with driver and fuel, so about 200kg handicap, they have so much downforce and advanced grip coeff. tyres that make them superior in corners, but on lap time they are inferior because they have a significant power deficit, as well as weighing more and consequently having a lower power-to-weight ratio.
Also if the gt500 regulations really are that good at speed then why weren't they used as a basis for lmh regulations?
Because the goal is not to have cars that fast, the regulations are made on purpose and the goal they set themselves was to have a lap time at LeMans of 3:30 I think, so even slower than the old LMP2s.
There is no modern championship whose goal, outside of F1 I believe (which is also very restrictive anyway) to have the fastest cars possible, it's all about developmental possibilities and spectacle, with BoP systems and whatnot.
I hope I was helpful.
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u/similiarintrests Dec 29 '21
All i know is people said making faster cars is super expensive. So i figure the gt500 cars must cost 5 times the amount of a gt3 car…
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid Manufacturers Dec 30 '21
Yes, it’s expensive. That’s reason why real DTM death because the car wasn’t cheap, and SGT starts to freeze new regulations.
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u/Artistic_Golf_7731 Apr 25 '24
Also, I don’t see the car has a lot of aerodynamic around the body. But I kinda felt like the design was a bit similar to the Mercedes clr
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u/BCNBammer Audi R8 #1 Dec 29 '21
A lot of downforce. The tyre war also helps.