r/socialism • u/diehardcommie12 • Jul 09 '24
Activism FRANCE IS NOT A VICTORY
France is in a deadlock now - for years we will be unable to advance our agenda because of coalition. We cannot use a loss of the far-right as an excuse to stop fighting, especially when the far- right continues to grow.
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
It is a victory in one sense - it shows that if you want to defeat the far right, you go to the left, not the worthless center.
The US, sadly, is about to demonstrate the opposite.
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u/benjm88 Jul 09 '24
The uk did the same going to centre and the us might not defeat the far right.
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
The UK elected the center because they'd removed the left.
With the exception of Corbyn, who had to fight like hell for it.
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u/TauntNeedNerf Jul 09 '24
The UK elected center because Reform split the right and they are first past the post
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
Yeah, and they'd destroyed their left wing even more thoroughly than the US did after 2016.
So sadly, you're probably going to see the right come back soon there - as the center does the only thing it can, nothing, and voters want to throw the bastards out.
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Jul 09 '24
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u/MainIsTheMain Jul 09 '24
Uh what? I couldn’t count the number of seats Labour won purely because the Conservatives vote was split by Reform and if combined, would have easily been the majority.
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u/AsTheCraneFlies Jul 09 '24
The Green Party are a left wing party which now have 4seats. Doesn’t sound like much but it’s encouraging. Plus they were 2nd in a further 43 constituencies.
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
yeah, and I'm glad that Jeremy took his seat. But still, let's not pretend Labour isn't a bourgeois party there.
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u/AsTheCraneFlies Jul 09 '24
Nobody on the left in the UK are thinking that. Labour in its current form is not representative of anyone on the left. We know!
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u/msdos_kapital Marxism-Leninism Jul 09 '24
Labour won the lowest voting share ever in British politics for a winning party. By percent and by numbers they did better in 2019 and 2017 under Corbyn. Of course liberals will ignore this or claim it doesn't matter, "if they did better why didn't they win those elections?" etc etc, explaining away with technocratic nonsense, but the fact will remain.
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u/benjm88 Jul 09 '24
Labour did better in 2017 but not 2019 under Corbyn in vote share. Since 2019 vote share went up under 2%
It is annoying though that people act like Corbyn was destroyed and starmner has saved the party. We have a major issue with the press being against anything left wing.
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u/msdos_kapital Marxism-Leninism Jul 09 '24
Hmmm I thought I'd read it was both. Maybe just total votes in 2019 then, considering turnout was so low this election.
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u/nassy7 Jul 09 '24
The US doesn't have any real left, it's a two-party plutocracy. You can choose colors, red or blue, but no real change.
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
Yup, and that's why the right in the US is going to cruise to victory over the center-right.
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u/apitchf1 Jul 09 '24
I wish more people understood this. I feel like so many people see what is going on in the United States and claim that centralism is the way to go. Centrism is not an ideology and you end up with diet Republicans. No Republican is ever going to vote for any Democrat and uninformed people seeing the problems in our society will only have the option of centralism, which will be viewed as more of the same or “”something new “and and get duped by the far right.
History has shown time and again that trying to appease or follow the right to the far right will only make them more powerful
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
What I can't stand is when the centrists try and justify their cowardice with "look at Nazi Germany!"
I wish they actually would - the SPD did the equivalent of "vote blue no matter who" and put Hindenberg in as an alternative to the Nazis. Hindenberg, meanwhile, would never accept the SPD (even after they helped the Freikorp murder the Spartacus communists), and when the time came chose the Nazis over even the most milquetoast liberals there.
The lesson is clear - you want to fight Nazis, you gonna need commies. Because fascism is always a reaction to the pressures that are driving towards socialism.
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u/TyroPirate Jul 10 '24
Anyone that doesn't spend time learning about what socialism actually is (pretty much everyone, they just assume it's bad without asking why) assumes that democrats are liberals and liberals are left wing.
Isn't Buden called "extreme radical leftist" by Trump or something? Left/right/center have no meaning. No one actually knows what a centrist is, no one knows what a leftist is. So they think the counter to Republican party is liberalism
On some dating apps, like Hinge, the options for politics is Liberal/Moderate/Conservative/Other Implying that liberal is a leftist. (And I don't think that's part of an agenda to bury socialism, I think that's the purest example of the normie political spectrum in the US)
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u/leontrotsky973 Leon Trotsky Jul 09 '24
Genocide Joe is doubling down on not dropping out. Claims he has a mandate from the primaries. Coincidentally omitted out the huge incumbency advantage and plus some states like Florida didn’t even hold a primary and just gave him their delegates.
Biden has now benefited from the pandemic shuttering the primary process in 2020 and incumbency advantage in 2024. How democratic lol.
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u/Radiant-Tackle829 Jul 09 '24
Turkey also is taking the US route
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
Turkey has been held by a nationalist for over a decade at this point?
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u/Radiant-Tackle829 Jul 10 '24
Yes, and one of the reasons for this is that the centre-left was becoming more center. Although CHP(centre-left) is under new management now it’s still an issue amongst the voters. There are many parties in Turkey from all over the political spectrum.
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u/Bernie4Life420 Jul 09 '24
Grandpa Joe is going to win this.
He's the only real candidate.
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u/a_library_socialist Jul 09 '24
He was behind before he shit his diapers on national TV.
He's way behind now.
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u/molotov__cocktease Jul 09 '24
It's fine to celebrate a legitimate win, my man. Celebrate any victory, big or small.
We know we haven't permanently defeated reactionaries. This was still objectively good.
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u/alons33 Jul 09 '24
Listen to Melenchon speak these days,he is so well aware of where they have arrived.
That is why they know there is no compromise, only the strict following of their agenda, this is what articulates the Front. A hardened leftist perspective is what pushes their fusion forward, their political program.
Only the left builds sustainable economic and social paths, the liberals follow and benefit from them, they either dismantle them or opportunistically use them but then do nothing at all.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
If we don’t find moments of celebration there can be no revolution in any meaningful way. Yes, there’s more work to do. Let’s be happy for the limited leftist victory.
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u/_FoFo_ Jul 09 '24
What revolution?
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u/rsIashsounding Left Communism Jul 10 '24
Don't you know? The social democrats won. The revolution is here. Another Marx prophecy fulfilled.😱
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u/ReddestDave Jul 09 '24
Celebrating is fine. We all like to celebrate from time to time, but we shouldn't let ourselves be pacified by the false belief that we are in some sense victorious. We aren't. The fight must go on.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
100% but if dancing isn’t part of the movement then it’s not a movement I want to be a part of.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
But what exactly are you celebrating? Only that the FN hasn't won? Or is there anything more meaningful, vis-a-vis the construction of a socialist programme, that you want to celebrate?
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u/ReddestDave Jul 09 '24
We should celebrate the fact that the worst case scenario, the inevitability of which was widely presumed, has not (yet) come to pass. That is worth celebrating. Celebrations do not only mark the ends of wars, they also mark the ends of battles.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
This is a petty logic through which anti-socialism can easily be advanced. If your goal (even tactical!) is only for X not to win, even if this means reproducing and/or enhancing the conditions that create the FN in first place, why wouldn't you also then have to equally defend a "lesser evil" (insert whatever example: Keit Starmer, Pedro Sánchez, Donald Tusk...)? This is liberalism.
In order not to end in this logical scenario, something else has to constitute this "victory". What is the strategic and tactical goals which are achieved through it? Are there any?
Like, literally... You have a multitude of examples of socialist analysis that justify framing this as positive, like the NPA's lecture, but without this prior clarification celebrating it as a "victory" is nonsensical.
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u/SocialistIntrovert Jul 09 '24
It had been a foregone conclusion that France would be ruled by far-right fascists. Instead, not only are they not a majority, but the left wing alliance has a plurality. It’s not going to become a socialist state overnight but it’s a MASSIVE step forward for the left in France.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
Third time: a step towards what? How does LFI, the PCF or the NPA, advance from here? How is a programme to be deployed? What are its organitzative and political basis?
If you can answer this you have a valid strategy. With which one might or might not disagree, but valid. If you cannot answer this (i.e. determining tactics and strategics) you need to redirect your focus from electoralism and start organising.
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u/SocialistIntrovert Jul 09 '24
A step towards building some kind of electoral power for the left. Obviously electoralism isn’t the endgame, but do you really think the material conditions for the French people won’t improve at all as a result of socialists having the most seats in Parliament?
Firstly, the fact that NFP beat the Macronies shows me that despite popular belief from much of the world, the French people are more than open to “far left” ideas. It bodes very well for Melenchon in the 2027 presidential election, especially if there’s a Le Pen-Melenchon runoff. If the NFP plays their cards right and builds off of this victory it’s very possible that by 2027 the French could have a socialist president, socialist PM and socialist governing party. Thats fucking massive dude.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
A stable electoral platform (e.g. Venezuela's GPP, Uruguay's Frente Amplio), rather than a purely conjectural joining, requires a certain level of political unity. Even if we ignore, which we shouldn't, the differences between the PCF, NPA and LFI, the FP also includes the PS and Greens, with whom no serious political unity exists. To make it even more troubling, there is no meaningful difference in power-sharing ratios between LFI and the PS (I'm ignoring the rest here because they are only minoritary partners). This already rules out any kind of possibility of positive collaboration like the one in the two examples I gave.
There can indeed be (or better be, although the recent experience with European social democracy isn't promising) some minimum reforms with material impacts. I don't deny that. But those can also exist as a result of national conservative governments: conservativism is not necessarily opposed to welfare structures, only certain traditions are. Should we defend any such project? Obviously not, because we need some kind of further demands (and not only not being nativist). Those can take a lot of different forms: can it, maybe, allow for the construction of a new radical movement? Will it provide a transformation of a given economic structure, even if not of economic relations? Can it have a critical impact on people's material conditions (e.g. Syriza's initial promise)? Will it allow for the development of dual power structures from which the conditions that create the far-right can be challenged?
You just keep repeating that, essentially, "they will have the opportunity to win". Without the slightest reflection on what this can actually mean. And this is precisely what I have been repeating since the first comment, and which has still not been done. If, as you yourself recognize, "electoralism isn’t the endgame", to consider this a victory you must FIRST define what the strategical and tactical aims of the FP are, can or should be in relation to what I'm sure we both want: the construction of a socialist project.
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u/molotov__cocktease Jul 09 '24
Blocking fascists from seizing power is definitely meaningful in the construction of a socialist program.
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24
Blocking fascists from seizing power
Those fascists got the most votes in both rounds and could still theoretically form a coalition with the centre if LR and enough of Ensemble look rightward. The government has not been formed yet
Also, preventing fascists from winning elections is policing fascists. That's something anyone can do, not just the Left. The centre does that all the time, letting them loose when necessary, reining them in when not. I don't know about you, but I don't want to police fascists. I want to eliminate them as a political force.
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u/molotov__cocktease Jul 09 '24
Also, preventing fascists from winning elections is policing fascists. That's something anyone can do, not just the Left. The centre does that all the time, letting them loose when necessary, reining them in when not. I don't know about you, but I don't want to police fascists. I want to eliminate them as a political force.
Okay? Policing them is still a crucial step to eliminating them. I'm not sure what your point is. A practical victory is still a victory.
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24
Okay? Policing them is still a crucial step to eliminating them.
How? Policing them and eliminating them are strategies. Defeating them in elections are operations which any movement or force can do to fulfil its strategy.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Don't count the fascists out yet.
A practical victory is still a victory.
What practice can be attained through this victory? It's absolutely unclear, since the government hasn't been formed yet
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u/molotov__cocktease Jul 09 '24
How? Policing them and eliminating them are strategies. Defeating them in elections are operations which any movement or force can do to fulfil its strategy.
The two aren't mutually exclusive and the former is a step towards the latter. If you expect a perfect solution to arrive wholly formed you will achieve nothing.
Don't count the fascists out yet.
Where have I done this?
What practice can be attained through this victory? It's absolutely unclear, since the government hasn't been formed yet
It's easier to organize when fascists are kept from power. This... Should be obvious.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
You’re using the subjunctive. Could/if/may/might. Let’s focus on what did happen. Leftists were voted into office.
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24
Let’s focus on what did happen.
Sure.
Those fascists got the most votes in both rounds
This concretely happened. Is this not a threat to the left?
The government has not been formed yet
And this concretely is still true; therefore, subjunctive statements like
[Those fascists] could still theoretically form a coalition with the centre
Are still relevant.
Leftists were voted into office.
They were voted into Parliament. The government hasn't been formed yet. It's unclear who will make up the cabinet, whether entirely NFP, partially NFP or no NFP at all.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
Leftists got voted into parliament (that’s the victory).
We will keep working/fighting. But let’s be sure to appreciate the wins (even fleeting or small).
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
But has the programme of capital actually been blocked? They still hold, being moderate, 2/3 of the assembly.
Furthermore, a socialist programme is not managerial, what you are proposing, but transformative. Even if one works under gramscian terms, the different phases of socialist struggle are always drastically different to what you are implying.
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u/molotov__cocktease Jul 09 '24
Show me where I propose a managerial program.
I am speaking in terms of practical reality. A situation does not have to be perfect for it still be better, and waiting for a perfectly transformative revolution to arrive fully formed is revolutionary defeatism. Socialist organizing is prefigurative, and blocking out fascists is absolutely part of that.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
What do you want me to cite? Its not like you wrote an essay.
I've literally referred to Gramsci's theory of fascism specifically to allow for the most conjuncture-based, and even contradictory, possible strategy to address a context of acute crisis of capital. But I guess he's not worth attention. Just an out of touch ivory tower intellectual. As per the other recent examples in this same situation? Nothing to learn about its social movements either. Not even considering them is worth it. The "practical reality" of permanent action that will surely be achieved without permanent organisation (in the Gramscian sense) in a form different than a preparation of ground for a reactionary tendency.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
If 100% revolutionary proletariat victory is the ONLY win that you can accept and you’re unwilling to see progress you will burn out. Support yourself and your fellow travelers. See victory not only in this win, but in any mutual aid that you are a part of or witness.
We can not win the war without acknowledge the small victories along the way.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
Read the linked article on Gramsci's lecture of Italian fascism. Gramsci, the example I'm using here, is literally the antithesis to "revolutionary victory" in a great-man-theory sense. Gramsci, in the second phase of his analysis (again: read the article), literally drives away from the bordigist opposition to a united front. The difference here, however, remains fundamental: he is still engaging in a revolutionary analysis, even if not through frontal attacks but rather through molecular actions.
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u/HikmetLeGuin Jul 09 '24
A coalition of socialist and communist parties unexpectedly received the most seats. It's a positive step forward, at least, and shows some degree of class consciousness.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
Leftists won office.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
And what is their programme? How is it going to challenge the conditions that have brought by the rise of the far-right? Might it not work in a counterproductive way like we have seen in similar scenarios (Portugal, Spanish state...), thus merely paving the way for an assured victory of capital in a context with an even weaker social contestation?
A victory is not engaging in a managerial response (which, by the own nature of capitalism, you will ALWAYS end up losing). A victory is that which allows for the advancement of a transformative agenda. For the break with capitalism.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
We are a ways away from a break with capitalism, you’re going to get an ulcer if you don’t smile at small moments of progress along the way.
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Jul 09 '24
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u/socialism-ModTeam Jul 09 '24
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
Social Democracy: Refers to the modern political tradition which seeks to achieve a zone of comfort within capitalism by "reforming" the existing capitalist system rather than breaking with it in order to achieve a socialist system. Does not refer to the social democratic tradition (e.g. Rosa Luxemburg) that was represented by the 2nd International, prior to its break with socialism in favor of the European idea of the welfare state (capitalism). Modern Scandinavia is an example of social democracy.
Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24
This is cold comfort for someone who doesn't believe it was a victory.
In other words, how could this possibly convince OP if you fundamentally disagree about what happened in France?
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
I guess I don’t understand the perspective. If lefties gain office, power, attention etc… I see that as progress. If all we see is defeat how can we see any hope?
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24
If lefties gain office
They've gained seats (not offices - the government hasn't been formed yet) in a parliament that belongs to the French capitalist class. Even if the Prime Minister comes from the New Popular Front (NFP), they have to contend with a centre-right President.
Also, the centre-to-far-right remainder picks and chooses who among the Front it will work with (i.e. isolating the parties from each other, encouraging splitting) and can torpedo a left-wing cabinet with one no confidence vote.
The only solace is it'll take a year for snap elections to happen. It's entirely possible, given these circumstances, that there'll be a caretaker government until 2025.
[If the lefties] gain power
Power is the ability to make the changes you see fit, on your own terms, without delay or mediation.
Does the NFP have the lion's share of votes, thereby commanding the respect of the French electorate? No.
Can the NFP securely govern without forming a coalition with parties that'll compromise its agenda? No.
I'll concede that some power has been gained, but not much through the electoral process. It's only one of many fronts to fight on.
[If the lefties] gain attention
Positive attention is positive. Whether the attention will stay positive depends on what the NFP and the other groupings do within and outside of Parliament.
I see that as progress.
A partial failure and progress are not incompatible.
If all we see is defeat how can we see any hope?
OP never told anybody not to hope. Neither they nor I can tell you not to hope.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
We see things very differently. We do not live in an all or nothing world. I am all for radical change but I recognize that we must coax and convince along the way. We may even have to compromise in order to get closer to our goals.
Power is not government by fiat. Power is a seat at the table and having the ability to shape policy.
The river is powerful because of the force of the movement, the stone is powerful because it can stay in place, the fish is powerful because it can swim upstream. These are all different forms of power and all important.
I’m suggesting that choosing to see a win as a defeat is to invite hopelessness.
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u/kokokaraib Jul 09 '24
We see things very differently.
Yes.
We do not live in an all or nothing world
This does not explain how we see things differently. I never said it was a complete failure. I even said
A partial failure and progress are not incompatible.
I am all for radical change but I recognize that we must coax and convince along the way.
That's not power. That's influence.
We may even have to compromise in order to get closer to our goals.
You can compromise from a position of power or powerlessness.
Power is not government by fiat.
Power is not government by any particular means. Power may be channeled through government, but the two things are distinct.
Power is a seat at the table and having the ability to shape policy.
Again, that is not power but influence. Why should we go to a particular table and have a seat? What if we want we own table with its own seats? Or just seats, perhaps?
The river is powerful because of the force of the movement, the stone is powerful because it can stay in place, the fish is powerful because it can swim upstream. These are all different forms of power and all important.
I know these are analogies, but I'll interrupt the rhetorical device for a moment: Unlike rivers, stones and (some) fish, humans are sentient beings that have complex interests and an ability to consciously change their environment. What interest does the river have in flowing forcefully? What interest does the stone have in staying in place? What interest does the fish have in swimming upstream? And can any of these entities do anything to make their work easier, acting upon the others when doing so?
I’m suggesting that choosing to see a win as a defeat is to invite hopelessness.
Seeing it as a defeat doesn't make me feel hopeless. It makes me aware of certain limitations. If I believed it was a victory only to be disappointed later, then I'd probably lose hope. If I believed it was a victory, then saw Mélenchon or some other New Popular Front figure become PM only to be stonewalled by Macron or the National Rally, I'd definitely lose hope.
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u/Aktor Jul 09 '24
As you pointed out those are analogies.
I’m not sure how to respond to any of what you’re saying. You don’t want to see this as progress that’s your business.
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u/leontrotsky973 Leon Trotsky Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24
OP, being miserable all the time seems exhausting.
The socialists won a plurality in a G7 nation. Yes coalitions require concessions but we aren’t the junior parter, the moderates are. They lost their mandate.
And this is a launching point to a majority victory in the next election. This victory does not mean socialists will stop fighting for more votes in the next election.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
The moderates are literally part of the coalition, not outside of it. Macron is not a "moderate", Macron is the rule of capital in its most vicious state.
Also, as a correction, the LFI is the THIRD force in the French Assembly, after Macron's party.
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u/leontrotsky973 Leon Trotsky Jul 09 '24
Huh? Where did I say they are outside the coalition? I didn’t even mention Macron, who is outside the legislature as France is a semi-presidential republic.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
By Macron I was obviously referring to his party, RE. Not him physically.
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u/chaseinger Jul 09 '24
both can be true. you can celebrate a success and be motivated to keep fighting.
in reality politics, there's no victories. the fight never stops.
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u/Kronzypantz Jul 09 '24
It’s a first step. And coalition doesn’t mean compromise on absolutely everything. The Popular Front agrees on some good short term policies like wage hikes, rejection of austerity, and the recognition of Palestine.
They may be able to push more leftist policies later
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u/monoatomic Jul 09 '24
It's not a first step at all - the election win is not an outcome, but an indication of the foundational work being done elsewhere in the labor movement, etc.
Elections are political mechanisms which can't be ignored, but a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees.
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u/Adrian_Bock Jul 09 '24
We cannot use a loss of the far-right as an excuse to stop fighting
Literally no one has said the fight is over, but there are French fascists crying on the news, why can't we party about that? The constant misery is demoralizing and exhausting.
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u/turtlewelder Jul 09 '24
Reform only delays the onset of fascism, the leak is patched but the dam is structurally flawed.
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u/IWantToSortMyFeed Jul 09 '24
France is now in the exact position the capitalists that control both sides of the government want it to be in. The same position they desire all governments to be in.
All the people are so distracted by the squabbles on the ground they forgot there are still oligarchs that need tending to.
I hope they don't get stuck here and take the next step before it's too late.
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u/tonormicrophone1 Jul 10 '24
I honestly believe theres going to be a gigantic far right reaction after this election. Like the current "leftist" gov is social dem at most and neolib at worst. And the ruling structure is a coliation, one where the left doesnt really even have a majority. Bad things are going to happen.
Im incredibly cynical and think we need to prepare for the most pessimistic outcomes.
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Jul 10 '24
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u/tonormicrophone1 Jul 10 '24
They can claim that, but when the coliation isnt the majority. When the centerists and far right still control large parts of the seats. When the coliation itself is filled with different groups that can betray those promises. And when the history of leftist parties that take over in western countries, tend to moderate or cant do their promises. Than well Im going to remain cynical and say in practice they will be neoliberal at worst.
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Jul 10 '24
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u/tonormicrophone1 Jul 10 '24
well let us see. let us see if they do indeed do that.
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Jul 10 '24
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u/tonormicrophone1 Jul 10 '24
I hope that wont be the case too. All we have left is to wait and see. LEts hope they dont capitulate
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Jul 09 '24
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u/nassy7 Jul 09 '24
In such times of aggression and violance, I don't think this term should be used in a double sense. Especially if you want to win people for your cause.
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u/WebElectronic8157 Jul 09 '24
France is most likely going to end up like SYRIZA back in my home country of Greece.
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u/sech1p Socialism Jul 09 '24
I heard that SYRIZA from leftist party goes to neoliberal, idk even that correctly because I known not enough a Greek lore but Greeks people already are tired of neoliberals because of crisis. Greetings from Poland and I wish better times for you, Greeks.
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u/WebElectronic8157 Jul 09 '24
Thank you my for friend, I wish you the same. Unfortunately, the more left wing part of Syriza was slowly purged even before the elections in 2015. Those who left where those comprimised and cared more about the position of power than anything else.
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u/MrFolderol Jul 09 '24
Celebrating a victory is not an excuse to stop fighting. Who said that? On the contrary, poopooing every little advance that *is* made will make sure people are dispirited and think even fighting is pointless. It's one of the major issues we face as a left right now, in my view - that a better world often *doesn't* seem possible. No victory is ever final. And this is only a small one. But it's better than almost everyone expected, let's just appreciate that.
Also, on a very practical level, putting the left on the map like that in France makes it much more likely they'll be in the top 2 candidates come the next presidential election. And if it's against Le Pen, then I think there's a real chance for a left president next time around.
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Jul 09 '24
Can we even consider that the far right lost ? I am not sure. They more than doubled their number of seats at the assembly.
Still I am happy about what happened.
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u/library-weed-repeat Jul 09 '24
This post is right but missing the essential:
THE FAR RIGHT INCREASED THEIR SEATS COMPARED TO 2022 BY 60% (89 to 142)
In 2017 they had only 8 seats in Parliament!!
The far right actually made huge gains and everyone is considering the current Parliament as the last chance to avoid Marine le Pen winning the next presidential elections in 2027
The only reason people are considering this a victory is because some excited pundits teased the idea they could get a majority, which was mathematically impossible from the start. People also expected them to get a plurality, but the oppositions would have probably united to vote them out and there would have been a coalition government
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u/tonormicrophone1 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE WHO NOTICED THIS. I MEAN SURE WE STOPPED THEM FROM HAVING AN OVERWHELMING GROWTH BUT THAT DOESNT CHNGE THE FACT THEY ARE STILL GROWING.
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u/Beamboat Jul 09 '24
France is absolutely a victory;
The French left has been in shambles since the 2017 election, arguably even earlier since Hollande was implementing a centre-right program. The main figurehead, Mélenchon, is a polarising figure that even most of us left-wing French people dislike, myself included.
The left-wing parties have been able to finally get their shit together and make an impact in an election for the first time in 7 years, including 2 legislative and 2 presidential elections, and 2 European elections, and they did this in THREE WEEKS.
Don't get me wrong. The far-right is still progressing, fascism and hate are on the rise, and we are in a situation that our presidential democracy is not designed to incorporate (three large minority blocks instead of the presidential party + the opposition). But the left being the largest block in our Parliament is absolutely a victory.
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u/nassy7 Jul 09 '24
That's a start! With the far-right winning, we could be in a worse scenario already.
But I also recommend being vigilant. The problems and the supposed solutions (the right-wingers) are not out of the world.
What is needed now is to build on this success in order to expand it, but without excessive naivety and arrogance.
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u/raicopk Frantz Fanon Jul 09 '24
Is there any doubt that, unless something unexpected happens, the FN will win the next elections? A social democratic front, even less when it doesn't even have a majority, will certainly not bring about any meaningful transformation which alters the basis of fascism. Will they use this situation yo build a grassroots movement that can serve as basis for wider challenge? Obviously not. No possible coherent movement can be born out of something which mixes widely different groups like the CPF, the NPA, LFI and the PS.
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u/Bugatsas11 Jul 09 '24
It would be a victory if the far right got many less votes in the second round. This did not happen. We just delayed their (seemingly) inevitable road to victory. Let's hope that we will make good use of the time we have bought
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u/RLoge85 Jul 09 '24
It could be a decent starting point when compared to the rest of the Western world. Just gotta wait and see what happens.
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Jul 09 '24
Deadlocked until the left moves more centrists to their side. You either want progress or you don’t. It’s not an overnight thing. This is a step in the right direction. Be glad the right didn’t take all
Sincerely, a leftist in TX
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u/StarlightsOverMars Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Jul 09 '24
Or, we can all be less miserable if we just, you know, celebrated a battle won when we win it. A truly left-wing force just won a significant battle and stopped the rise of fascism. Now, other work is there, but celebrating for a day before getting to it won’t hurt.
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u/HikmetLeGuin Jul 09 '24
I don't think anyone thinks it's a total victory. It's like in any war; you can win a battle, push forward a little bit. And you can feel good about that. But that doesn't mean the struggle is over.
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u/Intelligent_Koala636 Jul 09 '24
France has been like that for years now. Macron was never a "centrist". The left has been stuck in a rut for decades in Europe because of the media distorting leftist ideology, infighting, and a general sense of hopelessness.
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u/Old-Passenger-4935 Committee for a Workers' International (CWI-CIO) Jul 09 '24
Of course it‘s a victory. The left is now definitely back as a major social force, and will probably only grow. I‘m not exactly counting on a coalition even happening, but it‘s not like the left losing would have been better, in any case.
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u/Loner_Gemini9201 Eco-Socialism Jul 09 '24
Believe it or not, you're both right and wrong.
You're right that France is in a deadlock. But Macron's party, Ensemble, is the biggest loser in this. They will not enter a coalition with the far-right or the left-wing. And their ineptitude will cost them everything. People who were leaning right will move rightward and vice versa with the left.
But right now, we should be celebrating the fact that people across the political spectrum in France, from communists to neoliberals, wished to beat the far-right. The people of France at large, recognize the National Rally as a threat and decided to do something about it.
The fight is obviously not over my guy, capitalism is still here. But let people have a dance and sing for a bit! Optimism and joy are necessary for a revolution to occur and overcome!
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u/BigPappaFrank Marxism-Leninism Jul 09 '24
We are not beating the leftists can't enjoy anything stereotypes, comrades
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u/TheAcrithrope Jul 10 '24
Thank you, Diehardcommie12 with a six day old account. We want eternal pessimism, nobody can be happy that the far right were defeated and the socialist gained some power, even if it was just a plurality with liberals.
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u/Mrhorrendous Jul 10 '24
I'd rather have the liberals working with the left than with the fascists.
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u/No_Singer8028 Marxism-Leninism Jul 10 '24
overall a very good thing. point is to keep the momentum going. the right backlash has already begun and will only intensify.
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u/MrDexter120 Marxism-Leninism Jul 10 '24
I believe people are celebrating for the sake of celebrating. It feels like good news in this endless wave of bad news but sadly in reality this isn't anything special. I see people pretending like the Paris commune is back and act like they crushed fascism. The coalition that won is yet another social democratic reformists coalition who in the end will manage capitalism and will continue the measures of austerity with maybe some walfare in return.
Fascism is far from being defeated as they're still one of the biggest party who will return when the coalition inevitably fails and feed fascism even more by making people think that "everybody is the same anyway so shy not vote the fascists? "
This isn't the first time we have reformists win, we know how it goes and how it ends up. France has no communist revolutionary party, it's current communist party is a joke and an insult to the party ho chi minh helped Co create. So French workers aren't ready to counter the inevitable rise of the far right, the EU is fully endorsing fascistic policies so the far right will rule one way or the other (whether people like lepen work who will act like meloni who started as supposedly anti establishment but ended up EUs and natos lapdog or the EU will fully adopt far right policies in order to win and "prevent far right take over)
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Jul 10 '24
UK isn't and never will be a democracy, unfortunately !
The Only Hope for them is to make Commonwealth a Union like EU.
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u/nostringsonjay International Marxist Tendency (IMT) Jul 09 '24
Bang on the money here. Fascism becomes a mass force in a country like France when large portions of the working class believe there is no other alternative.
By dropping any radical, class-based programme to appease the centrists and liberals, the socialists and communists leave no other 'alternative' than the far right.
Fascism in France has not been stopped, only delayed. The only way to effectively fight fascism is through mass proletarian struggle. The only way to defeat it for good is revolution. The Popular Front is a misstep.
Let's not forget the French 'Communist' Party helped the French imperialists bomb Algeria in the 1960s, as not to break their 'popular front against fascism'.
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u/kredfield51 Marxist-Leninist Jul 09 '24
If anything it should invigorate us to go even harder from here on out. This shows incremental progress is possible and we need to keep moving the cause forward.
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u/libra_lad Jul 09 '24
Jesus Christ, it is a victory. It has to just stay a victory. Take the W, The L would have been tragic.
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