r/socialism • u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) • Jun 23 '23
Anti-Fascism The spirit of Nationalism is a curse for every human being!
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u/NorShii Socialism Jun 23 '23
Nationalism creates nations, communism creates community
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u/ifsometimesmaybe Jun 24 '23
I'd honestly welcome any argument ultimately in favour of nationalism, from a socialist perspective, just to greater understand why people flock to it. I can see how nationalism can ever avoid cultivate 'othering' a group purely based on where they live, and ultimately exploiting them for nationalistic gains.
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u/ProgressiveCCCP Jun 23 '23
Since I believe that the international proletariat does not belong to any country, I avoid words related to the state or country as much as possible.
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u/thehobbler Fledgling Jun 23 '23
If only nationalism didn't so frequently lead down the road to the "sports teams" mindset.
But it does, so reject nationalism. Embrace joy and compassion for your neighbors
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u/ohcharmingostrichwhy Jun 24 '23
I’ve never understood nationalism. Why should one be obligated to prize the area where you happened to be born over all others? Why would you be proud of your arbitrary placement there? Why would you partially claim the achievements of others that you had nothing to do with, simply because you lived within the same chunk of land? It seems to me that all it does is increase ignorance and intolerance of other cultures.
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u/Unrealistic_fiction Jun 24 '23
Simply, community is powerful. People like it when they are part of a group. However Fascism and nazism use it to justify supremacist actions.
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u/herrsanders Jun 24 '23
One is not obligated to prize anything in a decent, western nation state - say and do whatever you like. In which way does it affect your life what to what extent do people feel connected to the history of their land, predecessors and what not? Your comment is ironically ignorant by itself. I am grateful to be born where I was - from there on, I could choose any country in the world to relocate if I wanted to. However, the feeling that you have a place on the planet where you also have social guarantees and safety is invaluable.
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Jun 25 '23
Go walk in your wilderness. Watch the native birds, trees, flowers, plants. Eat your native fish that you caught in your native waters. Enjoy your cultural celebrations, your cultural art, music and fun. Having pride in that is nationalism, not hating others. You mightnt understand nationalism until your country has been taken away from the workers of your country by the ruling class of another, and turned into something terrible.
In my own country, Ireland, our nationalism has a long history with our leftism. Our nationalist struggles were anti imperialist class struggles. Looking back at some of our heroes like James Connolly (an immigrant, an Irishman, a Marxist of the highest order) who fought for freedom all over the world, including America, I have pride in him. Looking at Bobby sands, a man who never spent a Christmas outside of jail since he was seventeen, a man who was sent to prison by a foreign government, who learned his native tongue, and who learned the reason for his fight by reading theory and becoming a socialist, a man who sacrificed his life in the ultimate way, so that the children of Ireland may one day see freedom from British and capitalist oppression through sixty six days of hunger strike and many more long years of degrading protest. I have pride in him.
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u/liewchi_wu888 Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
Which is why the Titoist regime simply declared that Albanians are really just Turks and sent them packing to Türkiye. Nothing says "Internationalism" like ethnically cleansing a population.
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u/theDashRendar Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23
"Why should your neighbor be your enemy" with a photo of Balkan Hitler and the OP with a Ho Chi Minh portrait...
The Vietnamese people's war of liberation. On the eve of the Geneva Conference on Indo-China in April 1954, the Tito clique violently slandered the just struggle of the Vietnamese people, asserting that they were being used by Moscow and Peking "as a card in their post-war policy of cold war".
They said of the Vietnamese people's great battle to liberate Dien Bien Phu that it was "not a gesture of goodwill".
https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sino-soviet-split/cpc/yugoslavia.htm
It's absolutely obscene the amount of social-fascism tolerated and even celebrated by people on this sub.
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Jun 23 '23
Lol balkan hitler... shut the fuck up
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u/theDashRendar Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23
"Balkan Hitler" is the 75 year old historical communist criticism of Tito.
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u/blkirishbastard Jun 23 '23
Made by Stalin, who was responsible for exponentially more deaths and ethnic cleansings than Tito. Tito was also an active partisan leader while Stalin was conducting the war from his bunker in Moscow.
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u/Crni_SKadu Jun 23 '23
You're making it seem like Tito did the fighting on the ground, which he didn't. It's also unfair to compare them because when October revolution happened Stalin was doing a lot of on the ground work. He was an old man by ww2.
As for being responsible for numerous deaths, so sad for the Nazis and kulaks.
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Jun 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/liewchi_wu888 Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23
Is there some wierd balkan ethnopolitics "great replacement" thing going on there?
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u/YouWillOnlyBanAMan Jun 25 '23
They literally have an albanian party in parliament, albanians in high positions in government, entire villages/towns where the only flag you'd see is the albanian one. When's the last time you saw any of that any other country else? How do you think this will end up?
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u/furansisu Jun 24 '23 edited Jun 24 '23
The idea that nationalism runs contrary to socialism is a narrow-minded view mostly coming from socialists in the developed (EDIT: this used to incorrectly say developing) world. For you, nationalism may be some oppresive and racist ideology, but for us socialists in the third world, as well as other countries that have a long history of being colonized, nationalism has been instrumental to anti-imperialism for centuries.
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u/El3ctricalSquash Jun 24 '23
in the developed world we have already privatized our own resources and a large chunk of the developing world’s resources, so the only thing to gain from nationalism in the developed world/in settler colonial states is the ability to try and take more of what someone else has. In the developing world you often have to rely on foreign exchange to buy equipment to extract your resources if your country has suitable capacity for that kind of trade and if you can’t trade for dollars you have to contract foreign corporations to assist with the extraction, from which they take a heavy cut and may even ask the US to intervene militarily if they “need” complete market domination of a strategic resource.
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u/furansisu Jun 24 '23
I only now realized I wrote developing when I meant developed. My comment made no sense.
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u/nerd866 Socialism Jun 24 '23
There's no socialism without international, globalized socialism.
The superstructure of global capitalism will permeate and overpower national socialism. Global progress is the only way forward.
Nationalism runs contrary to progress and is an alluring trap to protect capitalism.
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u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) Jun 23 '23
The post shows a barely seeable image of Yugoslav housing.
In the foreground is a yellow and blue colours neon grid with the emblem of the socialist Yugoslavia in the centre of it.
On the left side is also a picture of Josip Broz Tito.
In the upper left corner is a blue, white and red text which says: why should your neighbour be your Enemy?
On the lower right side is also a text in blue, white, and red which says: Workers of all Countries unite!
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
nationalism and internationalism are not mutually exclusive
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u/xMYTHIKx Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
Woah woah woah, are you advocating for some kind of dialectical understanding here?!? Nonsense!
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Jun 23 '23
This isn’t dialectics lol this is just saying to actual mutually exclusive thing next to each other. Being a dog and cat isn’t mutually exclusive. Dialectics!
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u/xMYTHIKx Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
"If the dialectical approach to a question is required anywhere it is required here, in the national question." - J.V. Stalin
Read some Stalin (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm) and some Mao (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_17.htm), probably some Fanon as well.
Nationalism vs internationalism is a classic and long-studied and discussed Marxist dialectic.
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u/GloriousSovietOnion Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
Depends on whether it's oppressed nationalism or oppressor nationalism.
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
not every nation can be classified as oppressed and oppressor
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u/GloriousSovietOnion Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
Then we can analyse those at a deeper level to come to a nuanced conclusion. But for most nations, it's pretty easy call.
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Jun 23 '23
How would you classify the US? England?
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
notice how I said "not every", rather than "no countries"
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Jun 24 '23
ok, didnt answer the question tho
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 24 '23
I would classify them as oppressor, and those they have colonised as oppressed. This same logic can’t be applied to a country like Bhutan for example
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u/EisVisage Jun 23 '23
Nationalism insofar as it doesn't lead back to dividing the working class / humanity as a whole, right? Wouldn't it be rather difficult to find a good balance there?
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
you could say the same about literally anything else, why single out nationalism?
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u/EisVisage Jun 23 '23
Because nationalism finds common use as a major bourgeois tool in most efforts to divide humanity, especially when it comes to warmongering and (the justification of) persecution. That's why finding a good balance between "let's liberate the lands we always lived on from our oppressors" and "let's make it our land and ours alone like we're the only ones who live here" strikes me as very important. Like figuring out where to draw the line before that becomes a problem for liberation. And because this whole discussion is about nationalism, including the comment I replied to.
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
obviously nobody in this subreddit will be advocating for an ethnostate, so it’s a bit of a weird point to make
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u/EisVisage Jun 23 '23
Of course, but seeing how nationalistic (in the bad way) former Soviet countries got I can't help but feel like the balance wasn't handled well there, and might not be handled well everywhere in the future.
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u/theOGAmazingJAM Marxism-Leninism Jun 23 '23
notice that this bad nationalism you’ve specified occurred after the soviet union dissolved, not during it
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u/TheRealMolloy Jun 23 '23
Perhaps, but then there's the issue of cultural erasure by a dominant culture. Indigenous communities always seem to bear the brunt of Western concepts of advancement and rapid industrialization. For example, the Ainu people of Japan and Russia, Indigenous boarding schools in the West and acculturation practices in Siberia, not to mention the myriad dying languages around the world.
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Jun 24 '23
I'm sorry but I completely disagree. I am an Irishman and i am a nationalist. I am also a devout Marxist.
Irish nationalism has for centuries been tied in with our leftism, because our nationalist struggles were also class struggles against a massive capitalist empire. Just research James Connolly who was a revolutionary Marxist (would have come to similar conclusions as Lenin at the same time but in different places), a die hard nationalist and an internationalist. But us Irish revolutionaries loving our country and her people does not equate to a hatred or disdain for people of other countries. A very popular republican (meaning you support the existence of the Irish Republic seperate from the crown, typically a left leaning view) saying, Tiocfaidh ár lá, means our day will come. Us being the workers of Ireland.
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u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) Jun 24 '23
Yeah sorry I missused nationalism. But I clearified it here
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Jun 23 '23
Yugoslavia under Tito made enemies with their socialist neighbours, the USSR and Albania.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
He didn't, Stalin was the one that made Yugoslavia an enemy. Czech republic, Hungary and Bulgaria were not allowed to be as connected to Yugoslavia as they liked because of stalin. Not to mention Stalin attempting to assassinate Tito and assassinating bumgaria's leader for wanting to unite with Tito. There is a reason that after Stalin, tensions warmed up between all the socialist states and Yugoslavia
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u/8Bitsblu Samir Amin Jun 23 '23
I wouldn't ascribe it to Stalin either. The fact of the matter is that politics, Tito's embracing of "market socialism" and detente with the west, is what drove a wedge between Yugoslavia and the rest of the communist movement. Hence why Khrushchev's reforms and pragmatic abandonment of the political struggle allowed for a warming of relations after.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
Tito didn't have any issues with other communist parties. It's the reason he supported Greek communists, even though Stalin didn't. Same reason that Bulgaria wanted to join Yugoslavia, but Stalin didn't allow it. If Tito chose to run market socialism but fully subservient to Stalin, there wouldn't have been issues i suppose but Tito wanted Yugoslavs to run Yugoslavia, not have it directed from Moscow.
Tito already didn't like Stalin from the 40s. There are numerous well documented instances of Stalin promising people, material, or supplies to Yugoslavia during the war that simply never came for no reason.
It was Tito moving away from Stalin that made Stalin make everyone move away from tito, against their wishes
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u/grayshot ML-Maoism Jun 23 '23
Market “socialism” is a completely incoherent concept that only seems acceptable if you have a completely idealist conception of socialism divorced from any dialectical materialist analysis of its political economy.
https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sino-soviet-split/cpc/yugoslavia.htm
Your entire analysis is indistinguishable from liberal great man drivel.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
Socialism in Yugoslavia existed as long as socialism in eastern Europe, except for Russia. Socialism in that period was far more successful and accepted by Yugoslavian citizens than those of eastern European citizens. There is no comparison here, you want Yugoslavia to do socialism your way, but your way was deemed worse. The citizens are to this day happy they didn't go down the centralized path of the USSR. Ask any Yugoslav what they think of yugoslavia and they speak about it like heaven. Obviously it wasn't paradise, but the level of flattery they illustrate means they did something right, even since yugonostalgia exists and many long for its return.
As for chinese newspapers, they also criticised the USSR and we're best friends with Albania. I see no consistency or anything in their opinion, a socialist state in east Asia, to comment on socialism in the Balkans. It's completely different material conditions
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u/grayshot ML-Maoism Jun 23 '23
So your reply is not to even attempt to justify the concept of market socialism scientifically by Marxism, but to point to approval ratings? Anything can be justified by such nonsense, that doesn’t constitute socialism.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
I don't need to prove to you that Yugoslavia was a socialist state. You're speaking about Stalin and Hoxha and by your flair, mao, in such bright terms that were completely on different aspects of where we sit in socialism and what we prefer. For you, if it isn't MLM it isn't socialism, and i reject that notion. Therefore i see no reason to try to convince you otherwise because a paradigm shift is too much for me to do on reddit
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u/grayshot ML-Maoism Jun 23 '23
I’m not asking you to convince me because you are wrong. I was merely pointing out how your inability to even attempt justifying your position in Marxist (eg scientific) terms in demonstrative of that fact.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 24 '23
I think it's pretty evident where you stand and how fixed you are in your position. What, a maoist is going to say "oh yeah actually Yugoslavia does seem socialist!" Of course not. It's a waste of time for both of us. There are plenty of reasons with the distribution of the means of production, Marxist education instituted within the state, and the specifications of what a market is within Yugoslavia that make it socialist to me.
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u/liewchi_wu888 Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23
Yugoslavia was never Socialist in any sense, it has always been a Capitalist state. Just because people liked it better than the various balkan statelets we have now, doesn't mean that it is any good. It just means the present state of things is much worse. It is not simply "they were doing Socialism differently", they weren't doing Socialism at all. As the old saying goes, seek Truth, even unto China, ther geographic location has nothing to do with the theoretical truth of their statement, or the fact that they had a falling out with Khruschev, or that they were, at this time, allied with Socialist Albania, as they pointed out, the Yugoslavs opportunistically sided with the non-Socialist west.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
The Yugoslavs didn't side with the west...they invented the non-aligned movement so they didn't have to side with anyone. It was smart considering how fucked up the cold war was.
As for Yugoslavia being a capitalist state, we can just end the conversation there then. If it isn't your socialism then it isn't socialism at all i guess
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u/liewchi_wu888 Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
Hence why so many Yugoslavs found their way to rebuildng West Germany. Non-aligned only meant that Tito vacillitate between one camp and the other based on sheer opportunism, and that came to bite Yugoslavia in the ass when they were no longer useful and that magical credit line just vanished.
As for my supposed sectarianism, Socialism means something, and that something is defnitely not whatever "Yugoslav Socialism" was.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 24 '23
Well yeah a maoist will of course not be interested in Yugoslavia. Your socialism doesn't exist anymore anywhere so you must hate all the socialist states that existed after mao, i'm assuming?
As for Yugoslavs in Germany, yes citizens went there for work and returned. I see no problem with that- Yugoslavia prided itself on not limiting the freedom of movement of it's citizens. It's also a reason Yugoslavia had the strongest passport in the world, being able to go to east and west Germany or new York and Moscow without issue.
Why would Yugoslavia stop it's citizens from working or vacationing abroad if the citizen wanted to 😂 makes no sense, that's dystopian. The economy was doing great and the lifestyle provided by Yugoslavia was far better than any other socialist state that existed then or now. Yugoslavia had less debt than the current Balkan states does as well, i think your numbers are totally wrong. Extreme communists that hate Yugoslavia amaze me- you all share this myth that Yugoslavia was fully funded by america and when they stopped paying Yugoslavia collapsed. Newsflash- the economy was growing consistently every year, as was the population, with less debt than currently exists. Socialism in Yugoslavia collapsed because of the ethnic and nationalistic tensions that existed in the Balkans far longer than socialism, and ultimately erupted in a war.
All of European socialism collapsed around the same time, not just Yugoslavia, so despite your love for Romania or Poland's system, they didn't do any better and actually only did worse.
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Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
That doesn't make a lot of sense, what would've being ''fully subservient to Stalin'' have looked like? Yugoslavia accepting less foreign loans? Stalin was actually supportive of a Balkan Federation initially.
Your view of politics is one of struggle between the egos of certain individuals, Stalin and Tito in this case. It is a flawed method of understanding history.
E: Tito certainly had problems with other communist parties too. Their attempt to overthrow the Albanian leadership which failed because of Stalin, their withdrawal of support to Greek communists after the KKE sided with the USSR, their condemnation of the WPK's attempt to reunify Korea.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
It's not about Tito or Stalin, it's about Yugoslavia and the USSR. Being subservient to Stalin would have meant a more centralized method which wouldn't work in Yugoslavia for geopolitical and ethnic reasons. Tito pushed back on that and made a federal socialist system that worked better for the material conditions of the region
As for Albania, who was led by Enver Hoxha, an absolute paranoid maniac with numerous wild theories about every neighboring country and was confirmed by his obsession with building bunkers all over the country at the cost of Albanian wealth. His opinion doesn't really matter, he is an alien who maybe had early Alzheimer's or paranoia, and quite frankly is irrelevant in any socialist movement. To this day Albanians have the least positive view of socialism because of Enver Hoxha, and Yugoslavs have the highest positive view of socialism because of tito- why should Yugoslavs care what ever Hoxha had to say? There was no war, no skirmishes, etc
PS: Yugoslavia can't be blamed for withdrawing support for Greek communists when they were the ones who funded them, not the USSR who ignored Greek communists
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Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
an absolute paranoid maniac with numerous wild theories about every neighboring country
Untrue. The Albanian Party of Labor had a large pro-Yugoslav faction and Hoxha was very close to getting purged, Tito wanted Albania to become a Yugoslav republic which Hoxha and his faction opposed. Hoxha wasn't a madman for opposing Yugoslavia and his policy of building bunkers was to protect Albania from invasion which was a real threat.
Albanians have the least positive view of socialism
Untrue. Nostalgia is prevalent but unreported by media.
PS: Yugoslavia can't be blamed for withdrawing support for Greek communists when they were the ones who funded them, not the USSR who ignored Greek communists
You can blame them for withdrawing support because that's literally what they did. Yugoslavia wanted the KKE to be a vassal for their interests in the Balkans and would rather let the British win than have a pro-Soviet communist government in Greece. Mao in China still supported the Vietnamese communists even when they were more aligned with the USSR.
Admittedly though, I do believe Stalin made a mistake with their relative non-interference in Greece.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
Media hardly Reports yugonostalgia in the Balkans, but it's present in everyday life. The people themselves speak about proudly or as a system that was interesting but failed. The same can't be said about Albanians who look communism as the worst moment in their history. In Yugoslavia there is a feeling that the current countries are built on the foundations that Yugoslavia laid. In Albania, it's the opposite, that because of communism Albania is what it is today. The disdain they hold for socialism is famous, as is the appreciation Balkaners have for Yugoslavia.
And blaming Yugoslavia for stopping to support Greek communists when they were the only ones is like a bully beating a kid, no one does anything, then someone steps in to stop the bully. When the guy stops fighting the bully everyone goes why'd you stop? Well, why dient anyone else get involved? USSR had a far larger military and budget than Yugoslavia. If the user got involved I'm sure the communists would have won
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Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
The same can't be said about Albanians who look communism as the worst moment in their history
How exactly is that the case? Albanian communists freed their nation from fascist occupation, gave women equal rights, taught everyone to read, industrialised Albania which caused the population to nearly triple, eliminated homelessness, built hospitals, electrified the country. Their achievements were incredible, Socialist Albania was only horrible if you were a fascist collaborator.
Albanians today still have nostalgic memory for socialism
Former Yugoslavians miss Yugoslavia because it was the last time that South Slavs were united until the war.
why dient anyone else get involved?
The USSR didn't want war with the British and Americans immediately after WW2. Also, Albania gave aid to Greek communists too.
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
Despite whatever socialist albania did for their citizens, the citizens don't like that system because of the various oppressive policies that existed and the lack of material wealth they achieved. They have one of the highest rates of anti socialism in Europe. Of course the introduction of socialism will improve the state but it was done with a strong hand by Hoxha that turned people away from it. Now, unfortunately, socialism is looked down upon in Albania because of Hoxha and his social policies
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Jun 23 '23
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u/HeyVeddy Jun 23 '23
Actually I'm just a Yugoslav, i have nothing to do with Trotsky nor do I care really
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Jun 23 '23
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u/danielimaxe Jun 23 '23
"The Bureau of Information believes that the basis of all these mistakes of the CPY leadership is the undoubted fact that in the CPY leadership over the last 5-6 months openly nationalist elements prevailed, which existed in a hidden form before, that the PCY leadership broke with the internationalist traditions of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and took the path of nationalism." - Resolution of the Information Office "On the situation in the Communist Party of Yugoslavia" June 29, 1948
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u/Carbonizedbread ❦𝜮𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒚𝒂𝒏𝒂🇵🇸🇨🇳🏳️⚧ Jun 24 '23
but my tribalistic inner nature tells me that palestinian dates are still the best in the world
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u/SciFi_Pie Jun 23 '23
To denounce all forms of nationalism does a great disservice to the many anti-imperialist struggles past and present around the world. OP's flair is Ho Chi Minh, a man who fought the empires of Japan, France and the United States as part of a nationalist struggle for his people's liberation. If I'm not mistaken, many Viet Minh fighters weren't even communists but Vietnamese nationalists.
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u/Quixophilic Jun 23 '23
It might be useful, but Nationalism is explicitly against the internationalist spirit of Leftism as a whole ("Workers of the wold unite", L'Internationale, etc.).
IMO nationalism only fosters division and bigotry in the long run, even if it gives pride and cohesion on the short term. It's a tool, but a very dangerous one.
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u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 24 '23
To dennounce every form of nationalism is not what my intention was. I think perhaps I did use the term nationalism a bit false.
From where I am from we use nationalist as a term for a person which is not only patriotic but hates on often a racist or cultural-chauvinist base other people and nations.
I would also never deny the important of a nationalism of for example a opressed country and their hatred against a opresser country.
My intention was to dennounce the hatred from one people group in for example the first world to another people group in the first world.
In conclusion it could be that I perhaps missused the term nationalism here. Sry
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Jun 23 '23
I think the issue here is nationalism (at least to me as an native English speaker in the US) has Avery, very different connotation.
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u/SciFi_Pie Jun 23 '23
Your message got across, don't worry. Just wanted to inject a little bit more nuance.
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u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) Jun 23 '23
Yeah thx, after reading the comments I suddenly realized that I completly missused the term nationalism and that just makes me a bit angry at myself now.
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u/Carbonizedbread ❦𝜮𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒚𝒂𝒏𝒂🇵🇸🇨🇳🏳️⚧ Jun 24 '23
bro u coulda just edited ur post to antagonistic or competitive nationalism
but i'd always luv me some nuance, so this is also fine ig
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u/Monsteristbeste Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterjugend (SDAJ) Jun 24 '23
No, I can't change the title of the post, otherwise I would obviously have done it already
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u/Carbonizedbread ❦𝜮𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒚𝒂𝒏𝒂🇵🇸🇨🇳🏳️⚧ Jun 24 '23
oh wait...
ohhhh nvm, me dummu can still repost?.... eh... (yea no, im just lookin for excuses
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u/human_totem_pole Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
But, you have those who argue there is good nationalism and bad nationalism. I've had this discussion with many SNP activists who see themselves as good nationalists, some of whom are republicans.
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u/Randy_Vigoda Jun 23 '23
Am left leaning Canadian. Depends on your definition of nationalism. You guys seem to be using it in the sense that it's a bad thing because of white nationalism. I use it in the positive sense that it creates national unity between Canadians regardless of what you look like or where you're from.
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u/hesalivejim Jun 24 '23
Nationalism is love of your nation. Nothing to do with race. I guess when you are one of the few countries sharing a continent with the "I swear allegiance to the flag" lot then you're doing ok as long as you don't paint a union jack onto your house.
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Jun 23 '23
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u/Connect-ExchangeOnli Jun 23 '23
This is such a distortion. The Bolsheviks fought off more foreign aggression in a few decades than any other country in history.
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Jun 23 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
They invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Ukraine, Poland, Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan
Nothing wrong with this, they wanted to liberate their neighbors from capitalism.
Also, the revolution wasn't just Russian.
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Jun 24 '23
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Jun 24 '23
free-choice
I don't bother much with liberal principles.
however this backfired amazingly as now every eastern European country is extremely anti-communist.
Mainly because of counter revolutionaries in the USSR after Stalin's death.
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Jun 24 '23
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Jun 24 '23
Why would you want a system that secures power for communism in the same way that our current system secures power for capitalism?
What system?
Please consider the idea that you are wrong, not that you are but that it is possible you could be
I'm a socialist because I believe in socialism. If I didn't, I wouldn't be one.
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Jun 24 '23
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Jun 24 '23
So socialism is your religion and you want a Theocracy
No
You believe in it irrationally
No
you want to punish sinners
I don't believe in sin so no.
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Jun 24 '23
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Jun 24 '23
Irrational means you are guided by emotion not evidence
There's plenty of evidence to support socialism and Marxism.
nobody resents them today, and they haven't made communism synonymous with genocide and Dictatorship have they?
It's not hard to believe that lies are made about them.
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u/NekoBeard777 Upton Sinclair Jun 23 '23
I am pretty sure there is nothing about nationalism that is incompatable with Socialism or Communism. Only western liberal socialism really has this sort of anti-nationalist flair to it. Across the East and global South, the focus was definitely within nations.
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Jun 23 '23
I think your acknowledgment on the importance of "nationalism" in liberation struggles in the east and global south doesn't actually support your claim of nationalism not being incompatible with socialism. Many of those countries, from Vietnam to the Algeria to Venezuela, used a sense of national pride as a counter to imperial rule. Their fight against colonialism was a fight for a shared national identity outside the colonial system.
However, the nationalisms of Europe in the early 20th century was a very different thing. Russia and Germany were (and are) imperialist countries fighting against one another in a terrain of global Capital expansion. Both the Russian and German revolutions were born in the chaos of WWI, and both had strong tendencies to end the war and unite socialists across Europe--hell, even Lenin said that for global communism to happen it needed to happen in Germany. They, as well, acknowledged that world revolution also needed to come through the colonized countries and colonized people (in the case of Black people in the US).
So, nationalism isn't necessarily incompatible, but it certainly isn't not a problem and each revolutionary moment deals with that contradiction as it sees fit.
Personally, I think that nationalism is incompatible with socialism as one socialist country doesn't negate the other and all workers of the world are exploited through total global Capital in this moment. We are in a globally connected world, and to win socialism I think we need to think of ourselves as a global proletariat not proletarians in specific nations.
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u/NekoBeard777 Upton Sinclair Jun 23 '23
It is like this in every thread where either nationalism or imperialism are brought up. Definitely not places I really like to tread, Because they are very divisive amongst socialists. For example on the Imperialism side, How can we spread socialism in a non imperialistic way? Some people would say that we cannot, and that ideas are not enough, and that Socialism must be spread by force which often takes a form that does not look any different than earlier or modern forms of imperialism - See USSR and China. Another is how can we get nations and their proletariat on board with Socialism if we don't respect national sovereignty as well as the culture of the people and are seen as a foreign assault on their values?
I really don't claim to have any answer, it really is up to the movement and what they find is most effective. We can try for theoretical perfection of the ideals of whatever socialist thinker you want, or we could be more practical and embrace things that marx may have found disgusting for the sake of aiding workers of a nation and allowing workers more freedom and power through nationalism if the working class so desires.
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Jun 23 '23
I guess don’t get mad at me if you don’t want to engage with nuanced issues like this. Your want to step around this issue, claiming it’s okay to embrace nationalism (which I don’t think you actually have a coherent reading or understanding of) because it’ll be most effective is simplistic.
Nationalism and having pride in one’s individual culture are very different things. I wonder if you understand that difference.
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u/Crni_SKadu Jun 23 '23
Tito was the exact reason why Yugoslavia fell apart the way it did. So this post is nonsense
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Jun 23 '23
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Jun 24 '23
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u/Napletnik Jul 06 '23
Every Nation is like family; you don't have to hate other families, you can love spending time with some, but you will always prioritize your family and its intrests, and other families shouldn't mess in your housholds
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u/GermGuy200 Marxism-Leninism Jul 22 '23
Interesting that you put tito in here considering he constantly tried to annex another socialist country he bordered and the people of the said socialist country living inside yugoslavian borders began being treated like shit under his rule.
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