Triple steps ≠ "syncopation"

[u/JonTigert]

Please dear God can we stop using this phrase wrong.

What you mean to say is that your triple steps are "swung".

Syncopation describes a moment; swung can describe an entire song.

When musicians talk about it, you don't say you have straight eighth notes and then syncopated eighth notes, that would be a nonsense statement. You say they are swung eighth notes.

If you want an example of syncopation, you could look to the song Castle Rock. That accent in the melody at the beginning is it good example of syncopation.

Syncopation does happen a lot in swing music, but it is not present in a step-step triple step basic in either six or eight counts.

[u/swingerouterer]

I also tend to twitch a little bit when someone describes the rhythm as "syncopated". It's not. You are dancing on the beat. The beat is swung. (Of course you also can dance in a way that's syncopated, but that's not what peoppe are talking about when learning the basic)

[u/Gyrfalcon63]

If we want to talk about something common that does have syncopation, the full (TOBA) break from the Shim Sham, and even the classic half break if you do the kick ball change on the & (and lots of other common breaks that appear in the big line dances) would be good examples.

[u/mightierthor]

Heed the Tigert. He is based.

[u/step-stepper → u/mightierthor]

Hearing "Heed that Tigert" to the tune of "Tiger Rag" ("Hold that tiger!")

[u/-tacostacostacos]

Syncopation is when one or a series of notes falls on a upbeat—any 8th or 16th note that doesn’t align on a major beat (1, 2, 3, or 4). Like OP says, it’s a feature of specific instances in the melody or accompaniment, not something that would describe a whole song or piece.

[u/Palaksa]

English is not my native language, i apologize if i am not clear or if i do not understand and need re-phrase.

Also, I am not a musician, i dance lindy hop. I like to discuss those topics around word, rythm ect. If you have recommended read on this topic, i am willing to read a lot.

If i describe a beat as "1 a & a 2", and i triple step by hitting "1 _ _ a 2" ( "_" is silent here). Can't i say that my triple step is syncopated ? In this case, i understand this triple step is an example of syncopation.

Because comparatively, i didnt hit the straight "1 _ & _ 2", which i would describe as not syncopated or straight (i may misuse word here, please feedback if that is the case).

[u/-tacostacostacos → u/Palaksa]

Musicians would probably count swung 8ths as “1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &.” And triplet 8ths as “1 & uh 2 & uh 3 & uh 4 & uh”

[u/No-Custard-1468 → u/Palaksa]

I’m only 80% sure of what I’m saying, but here’s my understanding:

• If you’re delaying a note, instead of making it flat or always exact same rhythm - swung Sounds like taa-tata vs ta-ta-ta

-If you’re accentuating a beat that is not usually accentuated - syncopated Sounds like taTA—tata vs ta-ta-ta

[u/JonTigert → u/Palaksa]

No need to apologize, it is a confusing thing to talk about. Even for us English speakers, it's a confusing word.

In swing music, beats don't break down to "1 a & a 2"; they break down to "1 & a 2" and in a Lindy Hop triple step you are hurting "1__ a 2".

This is not "syncopation". This is "swing". fAnd& Syncopation is something that happens one or two times. It is an accent. It has extra power. The middle of a triple step does not have extra power.

Another example of syncopation is at the end of Illinois Jacquets "sunny side of the street alt 1". The horns at the end have a big riff that has "three syncopated hits". This big horn hits are the syncopation.

Another way to think: A band is made up of the "rhythm section" (drums guitar and bass) and the " "melody section" (saxophones and trumpets).

The rhythm section "swings" all the time. (These is your basic footwork)

The melody section will have certain notes or phrases that are syncopated, but not all of them. (This is some of your variations and cool moves)

I hope that helps!

[u/Gyrfalcon63 → u/Palaksa]

Syncopation is not about the overall placement of eighths (the &'s) [that is, whether they are swung or not], but about rhythmic accents that do not occur on the beats. Swung eighths of themselves are no more or less syncopated than straight eighths. You can have syncopation without swung eighths, and you can have swung eighths without syncopation. Something that merely occurs in between beats would not be what a musician would consider syncopation. There are tons of notes that happen in between beats in most music. In general, notes between beats receive less stress than notes on the beats. If you add special emphasis to something in between the beat, that's basically what syncopation is. Length is usually a great way of adding that emphasis, as is pause and separation. It's hard to have that emphasis on the & of a triple step when the second step flows into a longer, held step. You could find a way to add emphasis, but it would be an interruption of the natural flow of a triple step. A normal triple step would not feature syncopation as a musician would understand the term.

[u/Liqourice_stick]

Just here to say, thanks… I feel this.

[u/Separate-Quantity430]

Never heard anybody say this tbh

[u/shpalman_bs]

Annoys me too. Dancers seem to think syncopated means any slightly interesting rhythm.

Syncopation is about a strong beat arriving early and it's everywhere in swing music (it was already there in ragtime, which isn't swung). Think about the melody of Splanky, for example. Triple steps are the shuffle/swing rhythm and they have a weak beat arriving late. If you stepped hard on the & instead of on the following beat, then you'd be syncopated.

[u/JonTigert → u/[deleted]]

The easy unified term is swing.

I am a drummer as well. It's just swing. That's it.

Sorry if it sounds confusing, but swinging your steps is exactly what's happening.

[u/-tacostacostacos → u/[deleted]]

It’s called swing dance, why is swinging your steps confusing?

[u/Big-Dot-8493 → u/[deleted]]

So, This post wasn't about teaching people how to teach, But In the real world I actually don't think teachers super need to talk about this in any class.

Students will hear and see the rhythm if you say it out loud while you show it.

If I need to get this in I would use something like this:

"Hear how how are triple steps go ya-kida instead of ya ki da? That's the "swing" of swing dancing. There's lots of other things that make swing dancing, But that's where the word swing comes from and what it means"

I I don't find that to be confusing, of course some folks would.

The main problem with what you're saying is that syncopation is a completely different thing that also happens in this dance. Just because it's a big complicated word that people Don't understand doesn't mean we can assign it a totally new meaning.

[u/Swing161 → u/[deleted]]

It’s really not that complicated, but if is an issue, jus say swing or swung rhythm, or “has swing in it” that can separately from a physical swinging motion.

[u/lwpisu]

Context feels important here. Within the scope of swing music, no, triples aren’t “syncopated”. But if you’ve never heard swing before and someone is trying to explain what those either are doing, syncopated makes sense as a descriptor.

No, technically swung 8th notes are not syncopated, because it doesn’t deviate from the norm of swing music. But in the greater context of all music, swing is highly syncopated.