I mean, Israel's been evicting legal arab landowners at gun point in the region for the better part of 100 years. The moral high ground has been so thoroughly abandoned that it would've been overgrown and reclaimed by nature if not for the fact everyone in the region keeps on carpet bombing it.
Remember when they stayed in their legally gained areas and every nation around them declared war with the explicitly stated goal to eliminate all Jews in the region? I guess when you start a war like that and lose, you donât get to have the military high ground back
Remember when they stayed in their legally gained areas...Â
No.  Â
The UN has condemned Israel every time the subject comes up, for illegally expanding outside of the partition plan's borders, for the last 80 years.  Â
Israel has never respected the territorial borders, or the sovereignty of the native people, since the country was founded.
Man, you should read up on the aftermath of ww2, you know the legal land buys, the borders agreed upon, the literal attempted genocide by 6 neighbouring countries. You will learn a lot. I wish I knew bot commands so I could add that to your reading list
You should read up on the origin of the conflict, circa 1915-1917. This conflict began toward the end of WW1, not the end of WW2. You will learn a lot. I wish you'd add the Sykes-Picot agreement, and the Balfour Declaration to your reading list as well as the UN partition plan of 1947, and the literally dozens of UN resolutions condemning illegal occupation of arab settled lands.
"The moral high ground has been so thoroughly abandoned"
To quote... Myself. In literally the post you just replied to. Perhaps I'll emphasize this again.
Nobody in the region can claim the moral high ground. Perhaps I'll translate that for clarity of those who struggle with reading comprehension.
There is no good guy. Yes, Hezbollah is the bad guy. Yes, Hamas is the bad guy. Hamas in particular was born in 1987, and is a direct response to Israel being the bad guy for nearly a century.
A 100% guaranteed method of creating a bad guy like Hamas is to forcefully settle a region by evicting a nation's legal landowners and executing any and all opposition systematically for the better part of 100 years.
the US really should thank themselves that they almost annihilated all the native people, because if they had enough numbers, theyâd be organised well and be called terrorists for wanting their land back.
If i were to toss all nuance out of the window, i would completely agree with you. It makes sense why easily digestible takes like these are so popular on the internet
You would have to toss all nuance out the window to disagree with me. I've studied the origin of this conflict, dating back to the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the Balfour Declaration, the treaties Great Britain made with the arab nations during the collapse of the Ottoman empire, and then the slow creeping expansion that disenfranchised existing landholders in the region for the better part of a century. I wrote my graduate thesis on the conflict.
Nothing is "easily digestible" about arguing that a nation currently under missile bombardment is at least as much the villain in the story as everyone else involved, it just happens to be the truth.
The people, the citizens of Israel, don't deserve to suffer. Nor do Palestinians deserve to have their hospitals bombed, and their land swallowed up by a western backed, religious colonial superpower.
You have no idea how refreshing it is to find an actual nuanced take supported by the actual history of the region. Even ignoring reddit, it is so hard to find informed people with nuanced opinions on the subject in general.
Your comment on the subject not being "easily digestible" I think illustrates one of the main problems we face when discussing the subject.
Everyone seems to want a boiled down summary of the conflict directing them on who to "root for." Many seem to treat this conflict like a sports event rather than the inevitable conflagration from decades of abuse and escalation. Meanwhile, the citizens of the region suffer at the hands of leaders who prolong the suffering to further their own agendas.
What really bothers me about all this, beyond this conflict largely tracing back to undue British influence, is that until Britain started getting involved in the early 1900's, the population of the holy land for over 1000 years ranged anywhere from 10-30% Jewish, and the jews and arabs who lived there co-existed in relative peace.
There's no way of knowing what would have happened absent western influence, but in another timeline, perhaps there would've been a lasting peace.
It's hard to have rational reactions in the face of visceral violence, so I understand people reacting emotionally first. But being fair means moving beyond that - and learning the history.
Absolutely cooked with this one right here and its the correct take (thats coming from someone that wrote their master thesis on sykes picot and studied PPE)
It certainly doesn't help that Jerusalem specifically is the epicenter of three major religions. Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses all went to the same high school ffs.
Correct, but Jewish migration to the holy land in the aim of creating a sovereign religious state began in earnest in 1917 after the Balfour declaration. 2024 happened more than 100 years after 1917.
If you want to talk about the modern conflict, you have to talk about the whole conflict.
If we talk the whole conflict, where are the Jews of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, etc? Where have they gone? The Arab-Israeli conflict also has roots in that.
Also, Jewish refugees purchasing land dates back even further than the Balfour declaration, and Jews have inhabited the region since basically forever.
Well if England and allies didn't pushed for the creation of a "Jewish" state to get rid of as many Jews as they could and forcing the people living there for 100s of years maybe this wouldn't be happening.
If people from all over the place - Europe, Russia, Middle East for over a millennia - didn't persecute the Jews, this wouldn't be a situation.
But I'm not exactly hearing a solution for the Jewish people while weirdly letting Iran - the state sponsor of radical Islam - continue to completely destroy Yemen and Lebanese societies among others.
I'm not here to defend all aspects of Israel. They certainly have committed their share of wrongdoings.
You seem completely biased, however, thinking Israel is the only source of bad things in this specific region. You don't think Hamas hoarding international aid resources and purchasing weapons (instead of building up the Gaza Strip) and sending suicide bombers into Israel is a negative? Iran not funding the same in Yemen and Lebanon fighting (in addition to Israel) people worshipping non-Shia Islam?
Hope to get your thoughts on the two terrorists that killed ~6 people at a train station a couple hours ago in Jaffa.
He went to a point different to what we were discussing, the exile of Jewish people of Arab countries happened after the start of the creation of "israel" after WW2.
Why wouldn't I be snarky when he's moving goal posts to keep his false narrative?
Jews were ruthlessly repressed in those Arab countries for years including laws that forbid them from owning land. Most land in Israel as of 1948 was purchased, not stolen. And Jews were also forced out of their homes at gunpoint.
Israel has carried out 82% of the attacks between them and Hezbollah since October 8. Israel is very much the aggressor, that whole self defense BS argument has no ground to stand on.
They get to keep self defense since the expansion happened after the neighbours explicitly stated they were starting a war to eliminate all Jews, not Israel, Jews. So Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Jordan have no legs to stand on. Funny how the ones who normalised relations with Jews and stopped attacking have no issues with their new neighbours. Funny how that happens? The ones who dropped their stated goal of genocide arenât at war with the country they threatened genocide with???? Wow, a logical step forward. If only the ones who still state death to all Jews (and im not misspeaking here, they arenât saying Israel) would stop that
Funny how you are talking about claims of genocide when an actual genocide is going on from... Dun dun dun.... Israel.
Funny how your argument falls apart when the vast majority of Israel's attacks have been on innocent citizens of these countries, not the militant forces themselves. They are practicing collective punishment and you and everybody knows it. I'm so glad the world is waking up to these nonsensical arguments.
Funny you can say actual genocide when real genocides happen. Donât bastardize the word because you donât like how people sre being treated. They arenât being hunted down and murdered. If Israel wanted to they could, Hamas and Hezbollah want to but canât. Intentions matter to me
And intent matters to the International Court of Justice as well which is why they voted 15-2 that it is plausible Israel is committing a genocide according to four main components under the Genocide Convention. Congrats, you just played yourself.Â
You are not that stupid surely. You do not think the âplausible genocide could occurâ means a genocide is happening? Like, words matter as much as intent. Do better
I like how you quote "plausible genocide could occur" when that's not what anyone said. Maybe go watch the fucking ruling so no one has to ask if you're the one who's stupid. And then you can do better by not supporting baby killers.Â
I donât find the leftist part helpful. Media seems to portray Israel v Palestine as right v left, but I feel the is only the extremes of left and right. I would definitely be considered a leftist in US politics and 100% support Israels right to exist (though hopefully with less bombs). I wish people could form opinions without being forced to march down partisan lines so offen
Youâre right. Tankies wouldâve better a better descriptor.
I totally agree with everything you said though, the true American left doesnât support violence on either side and just wants it all to stop with the last amount of deaths possible, regardless of who wins the morality battle. Plus a lot of these Reddit tankies just want to see the destruction of the state of Israel and arenât concerned about the lives of Israeli citizens.
There are brown skinned and light skinned people in all of these countries. Leave it to Americans to try to force this into another racial hierarchy narrative.
It's just lefty moral crusaders on Reddit that do this. r/publicfreakout and the rest of reddit is anti-jewish and anti-Israel so please don't that on all Americans. Americans outside of anonymous forums overwhelmingly support Israel.
But for different reasons they are both asian. They arenât targeting them for the color of their skin. Just like Israel isnât targeting their foes based on the color of their skin
The US military doesn't see different skin colours, so it is only a preventive strike when they do it.
You got to look out for numero uno and that is the US according to the US
actually the opposite, given that hezbollah has been launching rockets into israel for about a year, but the MINUTE israel responds, its suddenly "we need a ceasefireeeee"
Yeah, like imagine if the slow, methodical, unrelenting eviction of legal arab landowners in the region in order to create a religious nation state on top of a settled population had never happened. The locals would have nobody to fight back against.
legal arab landowners had land PURCHASED from them, mostly at exorbitant prices. And then, after the UN decided that splitting then land between the the people native from that land, Arab folks were asked to move out of the way so surrounding Arab armies could come and kill the nascent Israeli state
I do love hypotheticals though...can we imagine if the native locals never got forcefully evicted in the first place from that region, leading to atrocities committed against them worldwide for the last 1-2 millenia?
Imagine if the US kept the Japanese under occupation, stripping them of their human rights and routinely killing them, while systematically stealing their land.
Yeah. And the USA would probably feel like they could justify that based on Japanâs horrific behaviors (assuming their WW2 atrocities kept on going), Japan stating quite clearly that their goal was to kill every American on earth, and continuous attacks.
See how this works? Either side can justify violence. The âbut what aboutâ isnât going to lead to peace. Theyâve both done horrible shit to each other. It doesnât change that the only result of continued fighting will be more (mainly Palestinian) death.
They've engaged in tit for tat responses, sure...but none of that was a meaningful response.
The point was though, that no one was calling for a ceasefire from Hezbollah after they decided to start shooting rockets. It's only now, after Israels meaningful response
Are you... are you kidding? People have been asking for a cease fire this entire time. The cease fire in Gaza includes a cease fire for the Houthis and Hezbollah. Hezbollah did not attack Israel during the last Gaza cease fire. Also, how is a 10 to 1 ratio tit for tat? Are you delusional or on the Likud payroll?
"people" have not been pushing for one NEARLY as hard as now lol come on now. but, sure, technically theres always a small drumbeat of folks wanting a ceasefire anytime anyone does anything...clearly thats not what im referring to though
The cease fire in Gaza includes a cease fire for the Houthis and Hezbollah.
the ceasefire in gaza ensures Hamas survives, claims victory, and does this all over again. not that Hamas should have anything to do with Hezbollah/Lebanon. Or should the US announce itll start striking Iran until theres a ceasefire in Sudan?
Hezbollah did not attack Israel during the last Gaza cease fire.
I'm assuming you mean the one that Hamas broke, that then Hezbollah started also firing against Israel, in support of Hamas' attack? whats your point? Hezbollah, regardless, decided to thaw its temporary peace with Israel, in pursuit of trying to destroy Israel
Also, how is a 10 to 1 ratio tit for tat?
its not 10-1. not sure where you're getting that.
Are you delusional or on the Likud payroll?
oh i wish i was on their payroll. can you direct me to somewhere where i can sign up to get paid for sharing opinions i already have?
question, are you merely an idiot, or are you on Hamas' payroll? (see? silly questions are fun!)
You should flip that meme. Because nobody cared for the decades of missiles at Israel beforehand because they protect their civilians. Suddenly you fight back against people who donât give
A shit about civilians and you lose the morale war because of TikTok trends
How did you find a meme of my mother? She literally called me evil and satanic yesterday because I don't condone Israel's war crimes and genocide attempts.
Since it became fully operational the Iron Dome defense system has stopped over 400 rockets and missiles every year on average. Itâs not that Israel isnât constantly under attack, itâs that they have good means to defend themselves.
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u/Whale_Scrotum Oct 01 '24