You see absolutely no difference between attacking military targets in civilian infrastructure to simply killing as many civilians as humanly possible?
What is the best way to deal with a force using human shields?
The only side I choose is that of the innocent people caught up in a land war between two fanatical religious groups of people who worship the same god in slightly different ways, who think that's what entitles them to that land they're killing people over.
Iran and Hezbollah are detested by their people, so being vaguely on the side of the "innocent people" demands a clearer anti-Iran and anti-Hezbollah stance. Meanwhile Hamas are loved by their people, yet being anti-Hamas is the most direct path to peace.
And there is clear historical fault over this land war, as Palestine's leaders and allies have rejected statehood deals multiple times. They aren't satisfied until they achieve conquest over the entire land by military force. You may have heard a catchy slogan about this.
Yea, definitely have quite a bit more sympathy for the people being oppressed, too. Obviously I would like to see both sides living in harmony, but if you look at the situation right now, it's clearly not even right now. Palestine needs a lot of help right now.
Except, agree with it or not, Israel believes their actions are just.
ok, i'll listen to a devils advocate, when you see a video of Israelis moving stuff into houses that were previously occupied by Palestinians for generations to STEAL them, what's their mental justification for it? how is that "just"?
and don't do a whataboutism to something else, i'm specifically asking you "when they do THIS, what's their justification for it?"
woops, you're right I did misread what you said, sorry about that. I'm glad to know that you don't condone the situation I mentioned and recognize that it's not justified either.
That is the problem with this conflict and the reason it will never end. Both sides can go back and forth for ages pointing the finger at the other.
here's a really well put response to this that I've enjoyed.
It's almost a turn based situation. Every time you go up one step, the opposite faction did something bad. Every time a faction talks about the situation, they only go up to a step where the opponent was doing something bad. Forgetting what came before that, and before that etc. etc.
One thing is for sure, we know who has taken the most land and which civil population has suffered the most.
Quickest way to see if someone knows nothing about this conflict. Not denying there is anti-Semitism there, however acting like that's the reason is hilarious. How about dont take people's homes, pretty fucking simple.
Don't waste your breath on these imbeciles. They're just tiktok-brained, and there's so many of them that I have to assume, partly for my own sanity, that most of them are bots.
It's just unfathomable to me that this many people are *this* morally confused about a death cult that sees rape and maximal civilian casualties as a legitimate weapons in their sectarian war.
From the "source" you mentioned which is a blog:
"ADL is the leading anti-hate organization in the world. Founded in 1913, its timeless mission is âto stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all.â Today, ADL continues to fight all forms of antisemitism and bias, using innovation and partnerships to drive impact."
Sure.
Using the ADL as the sole source to understand the conflict in the middle east is nonsense. You are correct in suggesting they have a bias and will not be a neutral source.
Using the ADL as a resource to centralize quotes from other sources demonstrating a proclivity for Hamas to be shitty is fine. If you have an issue with the content in the link, or want to claim that what is quoted there is either fake or lacks context, feel free to demonstrate that.
Actually itâs the only one getting away with it, while being funded from the same countries that react in horror when itâs now in their interest.
The major problem with this conflict is the blatant hypocrisy and bias from the west.
Who is the biggest escalator to all conflicts in the Middle East
I donât see America and Europe bombing Qatar for using slave workers for the World Cup do you ??
Itâs not the slave work that they care about, they most certainly are profiting from it too
It depends on what you mean by âgetting away with itâ, doesnât it?
Look up what percentage of Israel is Muslim. Now compare it with the percentage who are Jewish in Muslim-majority countries, where there were once many more Jewish people. How exactly did that happen? It takes an understanding of history before 1940.
This isnât an endorsement of the IDFâs behavior, but you are historically illiterate.
Well what do you expect me to say to this? Palestines in the right? We already know war is bad. This wonât end diplomatically. Or is NATO supposed to invade Israel?
I dont care what you say to anything honestly. Its not a zero sum game.
Palestinians get radicalized because of oppression and do bad things. Israel gets attacked and uses it as an excuse to opress and irradicate/decimate people.
This is where you stop getting replies, they just downvote and leave when you actually ask for solution other than âbut genocide is bad!!â Like no shit.
I never said anyone was right, but comments like I was replying to heavily imply that Israel âhad it comingâ and maybe they did because of what theyâve done, but this is just the nature of war though and both sides are in the wrong like you said, people seem to want to pick a side though.
I just mean genuinely whatâs anyone supposed to do about it short of actually getting involved in the war themselves?
The world offered and offers diplomatic solutions to these things
but this is just the nature of war though and both sides are in the wrong like you said, people seem to want to pick a side though.
yeah agreed, and it's hard to break through the general agression behind the "pick a side" argument. It's been how many decades and this is still a problem?
I wish there was an easy solution that the people in power agreed with, but conflict is useful for both sides of extremists and will continue to funnel power into the war machines of both countries rather than efforts to improve their own lives and the lives of their neighbors.
This is pure redditor delusion. Isreal is always expected to just tolerate agression by it's neighbors because it's a more powerful country backed by the U.S.
A rational response to being attacked is to go to war. If you think the way Isreal wages war currently is "genocide" i'd love to see you describe an acceptable way for them wage it.
me saying one person is bad, doesnt mean the other is good.
Now you're just equivocating because you're too much of a coward to stand by your dumbass statement.
This isnât about Gaza. The Iranian government doesnât give a shit about Gaza or they would have done something in the past year to âhelpâ them. This is about them being afraid that their proxy army in Hezbollah are being threatened and so is their imperialist dream.
Yeah so they should just bend over and let rockets kill their citizensâŚi fucking hate how people on the internet pick sides. If youre against the bombings in Gaza, you should have no excuse to be against these bombings WITHOUT CAVEAT.
âOh shit, maybe our genociding has consequencesâ
Is basically saying to me that Hezbollah is justified in bombing israel.
Comments like these just contribute to the cycle of violence. âIsraeli evilâ is not the only reason why so many people died in Gaza in the last year. However you disagree with that statement, you probably agree with the people who are lobbing these bombs at Israel
Look, it's incredibly complicated (as are all things Israel-Palestine related), and Hezbollah are terrible. But since October 7th, Hezbollah have been launching rockets at the Israel occupied Golan Heights. Most of the world (including Israel) considers Shebaa Farms to be Syrian territory. Lebanon and Syria consider it to be part of Lebanon.
So Hezbollah is attacking occupying forces in either their own land or Syrian land. Either way, Israel isn't supposed to be there, even by their own admission. If they respected international borders and continued to be attacked by Hezbollah, they would be justified in retaliating. But as long as they are an invading force, it's fair game.
Look at a fucking map. They've been launching missiles at far more than the Golan Heights. Mostly parts of Israel proper by any possible definition that are outside it. This is the evacuated region, Google image search and you'll see a paywalled Economist map with location of detected fires from missiles, which are again mostly not in the Golan.
Golan Heights was occupied and taken from Syria after they lost in the Six Day war which they participated in starting. it was never part of Lebanon. It would frankly be a disaster for Syria to take it back at this point and they're in no state to govern it. Feel free to ask the original locals who are mostly Druze what they would want right now, with Syria in shambles from the civil war. Hezbollah also killed 12 Druze children with a missile in June.
First of all, 80,000 Israelis in Northern Israel (not Golan Heights) are displaced due to Hezbollah rockets.
Second, the Golan Heights is not Lebanon's to combat. Syria ceded control of the region when they lost their war of aggression and refused to demiliterize the region as a concession for its return. The Druze living there would rather be a part of Israel, and no one of sound rational thought is seriously believing that Israel should return the Golan Heights to Assad's regime.
Third, Lebanon was obligated to keep the Litani demiliterized as well under the terms following the 2006 war, which they haven't. So you're woefully misinformed.
And 1.9 million Palestinians were displaced by Israel when they invaded Gaza, which is Hezbollahs stated reason for launching missiles across the border.
As for your second point, I'm not really following the logic. Even if Lebanon and Syria didn't consider Golan Heights to be part of Lebanon, they would still have the right to assist their allies in taking back their land. In WWII, did the British have no right to attack Germans in France? The majority of the Druze in Golan Heights consider themselves to be Syrian. That's been changing gradually in the past few years, especially since October 7th, but still. And as I said in another reply, it doesn't really matter. Most of Russian occupied Ukraine is ethnically Russian. Crimea would much rather be part of Russia. It still isn't Russias to take.
Lebanon broke the terms of the resolution, and so did Israel by continuing to violate Lebanese airspace. Not sure what this has to do with Israel's illegal occupation of Golan Heights, the West Bank, or their invasion of Gaza.
Edit: And he blocked me before I could respond. No, I'm not dickriding for terrorists. One of the first things I said was that Hezbollah is terrible. All militant jihadist groups deserve to be destroyed. That doesn't justify the killing of 40,000 Palestinians. It doesn't justify the illegal occupation of the West Bank or Golan heights. And it won't justify the inevitable war crimes that Israel will commit in Lebanon.
Pretty sure he condemned Israel so not sure how he's dickriding terrorists. Now go ahead and respond then block me so it looks like I have no response just like you did with him.Â
Just stealing of more land. And few more settlements. And more dehumanising behaviour towards NATIVE Palestinians. And few more 2,000lbs freedom bombs to flatten whatever remains of Gaza. And more apartheid. And more killings of babies, women, old, and young Palestinians....
The idea that Palestinians are "Native" and Israeli Jews (60% of whom are Haredim/have lived in the Middle East and N. Africa for millenium) are somehow 'foreigners' is a pernicious lie. Jews are indigenous to the Levant, as much as Palestinian Muslims/Christians. All are native, and Western 'indigeneity' paradigms do not apply easily to the region. it's a family fight and that's the sad truth
If it's more missiles, that logic implies that Israel had it coming on October 7th after generations of Palestinian apartheid. The rational response is to sue for peace and to end the structural and literal violence.
If you're gonna subscribe to the idea that this missle attack is a consequence of Isreal's actions, then the war in Gaza is a consequence of the attack on october 7th.
The apartheid that you're saying caused october 7th also didn't appear out of thin air. Not to mention, if Isreal is justifying their occupation of Palestine by saying it's concerned about safety, how the fuck does october 7th do anything other than justify that concern? Why is it always Isreal's responsibility to make peace and end the violence? I don't see anyone in these threads call to Palestinians or the Lebanese to make peace.
Israel is being shown its not as untouchable as it thinks. It's in the best interest for everyone to pursue peace. Up until now Israel has had a near monopoly on bloodshed
There's actually a reasonable answer to this people pretend doesn't exist: appeal to the citizens of your opposition, not their mafia like leaders you describe.
Israel's current leaders have no intention of doing that.
Writing off all Palestinians as Hamas is as foolish as writing off Israelis as Zionists.
Right but why did Israel start shooting rockets in the first place? Iâm not saying their response has been fair or rational but it didnât come out of nowhere. War is a vicious circle my friend. Everyone loses.
War is a vicious circle my friend. Everyone loses.
That's why what we need is the leadership of Netanyahu, Hamas/Hezbollah, and Iran to all lose their power.
We need level-headed leaders who aren't bloodthirsty religious fanatics that want to eradicate their "enemy" from the region/planet. Ones that are actually willing to "live and let live" with people who have (religious) differences, and don't see somebody living differently to them as an existential threat.
but when one side has been calling for the death of all jews worldwide, and has high approval for that position, what sort of leader are you realistically expecting on that side?
Same goes for all the Israeli citizens who want Gaza wiped off the map.
It's why I hate the whole "citizens just want peace, but their strongman leaders keep fighting each other" narrative. Everyone "wants peace" in that they want all their enemies gone/subservient instead of actively hostile. And far too many people will prioritize war over a peace where their enemies aren't "properly punished".
and ill be the first to say, fuck those israeli citizens. but they arent CLOSE to being the majority, whereas unfortunately the "kill all the jews" crowd does enjoy majority support in the regions they operate in
The Israelis don't want to genocide the Palestinians, if they did, then they would. They have all the power.
The Palestinians, if they were in Israel's position, would genocide every Jew. It would be October 7, but on a national scale. They have already demonstrated their bloodlust when they indiscriminately murdered Israeli families in their homes.
West Bank has nothing to do with those three, yet they are still being occupied, displaced, and killed. The PA which governs the West Bank even formally recognized Israelâs right to exist. Hamas is the result of the PA not getting anything done to stop Israel and became a violent movement.
Out of curiosity, what would you, personally, feel is a ârationalâ response to thousands of missiles being fired at you, by a nation who you arenât at war with, and havenât attacked?
Funny you've kind of made by point for me. But not in the way you meant.
America supplies Israel with endless arms but at the same time some politicians (like Biden, Harris and others) will say that Israel should tone down the mindless killing. From my perspective, your mocking message could just as easily be pointed at the democrats.
To your actual point, Israel is invading despite being the aggressor already. Civilians aren't aggressive like this unless pushed to the brink. It is silly to hide behind antisemitism when they are actual reasons to hate Israel.
If Israel was living peacefully (never have), then yeah I'd blame antisemitism with you. Israel's entire existence is an affront to peace. When Palestinians refused to simply give up their nation to foreign invaders, that initiated the aggression.
A land without a people for a people without a land
The land was always occupied. And when those people living there refused, they were removed. This is called ethnic cleansing. And those who weren't removed became second class citizens.
Israel is in a constant state of escalate always, out there acting like american police with their big friend backing every shitty thing they do, and so many people running "both sides" rhetoric trying their best to not have opinions on a massive, important problem in the world.
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u/pvprazor Oct 01 '24
I'm sure israels answer to this will be rational