The thing is, you're grossly over exaggerating how much of an effect that has. Yes for the average player you might need to do 2-3 more runs to reach 5M, but that hardly makes it completely unrewarding to run like you make it out to be. If you typically aim for more than 5M, then there really isn't much difference.
That's pretty inaccurate.
Even assuming your 70% bird rate is accurate, that's a lot more than "2-3 more runs". A run with the bird is worth 1 run in TM Nami.
Three runs without a bird are worth 1 run of TM Nami. It takes a bit more than two runs, not quite three, but obviously you're doing whole runs so it's three runs.
You miss one bird, and you're set back deeply. This is why I said it's a series of chasing losses. If you somehow never miss the bird, it's about equal (just a bit worse off) than TM Nami.
Completely unrewarding is entirely accurate. You barely get points and they barely go up. You need a chance to activate to earn a little bit less than the previous TM. How pathetic is that? Imagine if your boss told you that you only had a 70% chance to earn a full day's pay but if you fail the chance, you still have to put in the same exact amount of effort. You just don't get your full paycheck, you only get a third of it.
Also, the points boosters sucked. Anything useful was 1.2x or less. Even the latest and greatest Legends were a mere 1.35x and weren't even that great for the Ambush OR main bosses.
Let's look at other bird TMs:
TM Law: Legend Zephyr was a 1.75x booster and old legend Capone was 1.35x. In-between Shanks and Boa. Zephyr is great for both fights.
TM Boa: Legend Jimbe was a 1.35x booster. High bird rate. Jimbe is great for both fights.
TM Shanks: Legend Garp was merely a 1.5x booster just like the three RRs. Big Mom and Brook were 1.35x. Poor bird rate. Garp is not very good for either fight due to how awkward he is to build around.
TM Big Mom: Legend Tesoro was a 1.75x booster and G4 and Nami were 1.35x. Very high bird rate. Tesoro works great if you have his batch.
The one argument I will concede on bird TMs (that you haven't brought up) is that they are more skewed towards P2W.
I haven't brought it up because it's outright wrong.
Bird TMs are usually far more F2P friendly because you're supposed to be gaining a lot more points faster.
From some preliminary number crunching, if you use just 1 TM booster vs boss & invasion (which is actually doable without owning the booster, if you have the friends that is)
Can't use a friend one. We haven't had a useable "TM booster" (dedicated to the TM mode, so no counting Zephyr and Ain/Binz) as a captain since TM Inuarashi all the way back during Jack. Higuma was useable for a few useless navigation levels and nothing more.
you will break even with TM Nami (also using 1 booster vs boss) despite the lower initial points of TM Kaido, because you can use it twice.
No, you won't. Aside from the booster tanking your team hard by being a captain, you're forgetting how in the heck do you get them to appear on your friend list without owning them yourself for the friend matching. Hope to god that people have them up? Spend several minutes constantly relogging?
If you have more, then it becomes even more skewed in favor of bird TMs.
Bird TMs are supposed to be better. In reality, that's not always the case because absolutely horrific execution like this TM can cause that to not happen.
OK fine you get a reply due to just how many gross inaccuracies you have in your post.
Even assuming your 70% bird rate is accurate, that's a lot more than "2-3 more runs"
36 runs for 5M Nami (non-RNG reliant), ~39 runs for 5M Kaido (with 69% bird rate). Will vary due to how lucky you are personally, but not more than a couple in each direction. Not "a lot more".
weren't even that great for the Ambush OR main bosses.
??? Katakuri and Snakeman wrecks both Kaido and Jack. What are you on about???
I haven't brought it up because it's outright wrong. Bird TMs are usually far more F2P friendly because you're supposed to be gaining a lot more points faster.
And that's where you're wrong. In the ideal bird TM, yes F2P players will be getting points faster (in comparison to themselves that is). Why are they more P2W than F2P? Cause P2W players get to use their absurd point boosters twice. Yes it should be faster for F2P, but it is MUCH faster for P2P. Relatively, it's a lot more P2W.
Can't use a friend one. We haven't had a useable "TM booster" (dedicated to the TM mode, so no counting Zephyr and Ain/Binz) as a captain since TM Inuarashi all the way back during Jack. Higuma was useable for a few useless navigation levels and nothing more.
No, you won't. Aside from the booster tanking your team hard by being a captain, you're forgetting how in the heck do you get them to appear on your friend list without owning them yourself for the friend matching. Hope to god that people have them up? Spend several minutes constantly relogging?
36 runs for 5M Nami (non-RNG reliant), ~39 runs for 5M Kaido (with 69% bird rate). Will vary due to how lucky you are personally, but not more than a couple in each direction. Not "a lot more".
In what world is it average that with a 69% bird rate you're only having three runs fail to get the bird out of 39? Did you forget to mention something? 69% means, roughly, 1 in 3 runs fail to get the bird. You're calculating that as one to three runs fail to get the bird period.
??? Katakuri and Snakeman wrecks both Kaido and Jack. What are you on about???
Snakeman does okay against Kaido. Too bad 6+ Cavendish does *better. The much older Legend. Compared to how the TMs usually are for the new Legends, it's a horrendous showcase for Snakeman.
Katakuri isn't very good against Kaido since there's nowhere to stall and suck up damage to enable him to be good. Katakuri also doesn't have very many QCK units to use. Against Kaido he can use Cavendish as a sub to good success. Against Jack he has basically no one, but at least he can stall meagerly there.
And that's where you're wrong. In the ideal bird TM, yes F2P players will be getting points faster (in comparison to themselves that is). Why are they more P2W than F2P? Cause P2W players get to use their absurd point boosters twice. Yes it should be faster for F2P, but it is MUCH faster for P2P. Relatively, it's a lot more P2W.
They get to use them twice? That's your big justification? That's the weakest "reasoning" I've ever heard. You're still competing against the same amount of runs...
It's not more P2W at all.
You can use a friend booster for the first couple dozen levels vs Kaido. You can use a friend booster vs Jack up to over level 150
No one's going to have one up.
That's also the most unrealistic video you could have ever linked. "You can use a friend booster..."
You forgot the important words "if you yourself whale massively and have all of the boosters too".
In what world is it average that with a 69% bird rate you're only having three runs fail to get the bird out of 39? Did you forget to mention something? 69% means, roughly, 1 in 3 runs fail to get the bird. You're calculating that as one to three runs fail to get the bird period.
When did I say I had 3 fail runs? I went 27/39 and got 5M points. I went 36 runs on Nami and got 5M points. I wasn't particularly lucky with Kaido. In fact I went 50/50 in the latter half of the runs. It would've been better if I had the other way around and missed Kaido the first few runs and got him later. I didn't have the main boosters for either.
Something's up with your math, cause according to you this shouldn't be possible, yet that was exactly my experience.
Snakeman does okay against Kaido. Too bad 6+ Cavendish does *better. The much older Legend. Compared to how the TMs usually are for the new Legends, it's a horrendous showcase for Snakeman.
When the enemy boss has 3M HP and your Snakeman team can output 15M at any time, that's all you need. If being just "OKAY" can carry you to level 150+, then I'm sure literally everyone is fine with it (except you for some reason)
They get to use them twice? That's your big justification? That's the weakest "reasoning" I've ever heard. You're still competing against the same amount of runs... It's not more P2W at all.
That's literally the only advantage P2P has over F2P and they literally double it during bird TMs. They earn more than triple the points that of F2P players do vs the boss. Now they can do it twice. In the same run.
In a normal TM, a P2P can earn about twice as many points as a F2P per run. In a bird TM, a P2P can earn about 2.5x as many points, cause they can run it twice.
No one's going to have one up.
That's also the most unrealistic video you could have ever linked. "You can use a friend booster..." You forgot the important words "if you yourself whale massively and have all of the boosters too". That's exactly why I said it was P2W? ...what?
... I literally just said it was P2W. Whale = P2W no????
And the whole point of that was because you said you can't use friend TM boosters cause their CA suck. The video shows you that despite their CA sucking, you can still clear with them as captain up to over level 150.
When did I say I had 3 fail runs? I went 27/39 and got 5M points. I went 36 runs on Nami and got 5M points. I wasn't particularly lucky with Kaido. In fact I went 50/50 in the latter half of the runs. It would've been better if I had the other way around and missed Kaido the first few runs and got him later. I didn't have the main boosters for either.
Why were you using so many unboosted units on Nami but using boosted ones for Kaido?
How on earth does an effective ~31 runs of Kaido (since you had 12 without the bird, I'm counting those as 4 extra "bird" ones equaling 31 total) equal 36 Nami runs for you? Were you using TM boosters for Kaido?
Something's up with your math, cause according to you this shouldn't be possible, yet that was exactly my experience.
Something's up with your story that you're not telling anyone because you want me to believe 31 (being generous, likely closer to 30) = 36.
When the enemy boss has 3M HP and your Snakeman team can output 15M at any time, that's all you need. If being just "OKAY" can carry you to level 150+, then I'm sure literally everyone is fine with it (except you for some reason)
1.35x. Exciting. An orb boost. Exciting. STR type against a STR enemy. Exciting.
We'll also ignore how Snakeman deals with the bosses arguably less efficiently than lesser-boosted units.
15m? You're using suboptimal points teams for e-peen or something?
Navigation level 150+ is literally meaningless.
That's literally the only advantage P2P has over F2P and they literally double it during bird TMs. They earn more than triple the points that of F2P players do vs the boss. Now they can do it twice. In the same run.
The thing you fail to realize that it's "P2W" no matter what because in either case the F2Per simply can't catch up. I don't think it matters if you miss an inch or a mile so long as you don't beat them.
And the whole point of that was because you said you can't use friend TM boosters cause their CA suck. The video shows you that despite their CA sucking, you can still clear with them as captain up to over level 150.
That video isn't representative of anything though. Also, congratulations, you've listed the first use case in a long time that still isn't practical whatsoever. Please tell me how the 0x ATK, 2.5x Beli Chopper was hauling butt in the last TM and so on.
He also only found that friend captain because he has the captain in question too. No one's leaving those up.
No, both Nami and Kaido were both completed using 1.2-1.35x boosters. And the something I'm not telling anyone? Yeah those ~3? runs I completed with friend TM boosters maybe. But I used more of those friends on Nami than Kaido just saying.
Yeah P2W doesn't matter for 5M. But it starts changing for top 5k, 2k, 1k, which are milestones perfectly accessible for F2P.
And again, the only reason why I linked the video was cause you said the friend boosters aren't good enough captains to clear shit. But clearly you can use them as friends even up to 150. And again, I already said that this was P2W. Because for P2W, this is completely practical.
No, both Nami and Kaido were both completed using 1.2-1.35x boosters. And the something I'm not telling anyone? Yeah those ~3? runs I completed with friend TM boosters maybe. But I used more of those friends on Nami than Kaido just saying.
The math doesn't check out then since again, even with the bird, Kaido gives less points than Nami, and you only did about 31 effective runs of Kaido against 36 of Nami.
Yeah P2W doesn't matter for 5M. But it starts changing for top 5k, 2k, 1k, which are milestones perfectly accessible for F2P.
World Clash on JP was P2W. Several of the stages an F2P literally could not compete in because the top 5k consisted of P2Wers with a lot of boosters who never stopped playing. Everyone having the same 2 minute runs, who's going to win?
5,000 people getting 400+ points per run, or one guy with 120 points per run?
TM... is not like that.
And again, the only reason why I linked the video was cause you said the friend boosters aren't good enough captains to clear shit.
Because they aren't.
That video featuring a whale or whatever is actually meaningless to mention.
Again, show me the videos of Chopper "tearing it up" for TM Nami, or Rayleigh "tearing it up" against Boa, and so on. That video lucks out entirely on Katakuri allowing non-offensive (aka TM boosters) captains to participate.
saying meaningless to every bit of opposing info that Muffin is using does not make it so, you brought up a completely off-the-walls rebuttal that had no connection to what Muffin was saying, bringing up WC when he was taking about TM is hilarious, you keep saying meaningless, but you have no idea waht your even talking about
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '19
That's pretty inaccurate.
Even assuming your 70% bird rate is accurate, that's a lot more than "2-3 more runs". A run with the bird is worth 1 run in TM Nami.
Three runs without a bird are worth 1 run of TM Nami. It takes a bit more than two runs, not quite three, but obviously you're doing whole runs so it's three runs.
You miss one bird, and you're set back deeply. This is why I said it's a series of chasing losses. If you somehow never miss the bird, it's about equal (just a bit worse off) than TM Nami.
Completely unrewarding is entirely accurate. You barely get points and they barely go up. You need a chance to activate to earn a little bit less than the previous TM. How pathetic is that? Imagine if your boss told you that you only had a 70% chance to earn a full day's pay but if you fail the chance, you still have to put in the same exact amount of effort. You just don't get your full paycheck, you only get a third of it.
Also, the points boosters sucked. Anything useful was 1.2x or less. Even the latest and greatest Legends were a mere 1.35x and weren't even that great for the Ambush OR main bosses.
Let's look at other bird TMs:
I haven't brought it up because it's outright wrong.
Bird TMs are usually far more F2P friendly because you're supposed to be gaining a lot more points faster.
Can't use a friend one. We haven't had a useable "TM booster" (dedicated to the TM mode, so no counting Zephyr and Ain/Binz) as a captain since TM Inuarashi all the way back during Jack. Higuma was useable for a few useless navigation levels and nothing more.
No, you won't. Aside from the booster tanking your team hard by being a captain, you're forgetting how in the heck do you get them to appear on your friend list without owning them yourself for the friend matching. Hope to god that people have them up? Spend several minutes constantly relogging?
Bird TMs are supposed to be better. In reality, that's not always the case because absolutely horrific execution like this TM can cause that to not happen.
Then I wonder why you even made this post.