r/OnePieceTC • u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins • May 03 '18

JPN Analysis TM Kizaru - The Misconception of Multi-Component Specials (PART 1)

Introduction

WARNING - LOTS OF TEXT BELOW

SEE TLDR IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE MATH OR EXPLANATIONS

Ever since TM Kizaru's CA and special were introduced, players have been shitting on him, complaining that he is the worst TM unit and not worth farming (although Bandai decided to spice things up this time with the free Legend pulls).

Originally, I wanted to discuss his special and compare TM Kizaru with other TM units overall in this post. However, it's getting quite lengthy so I'm going to split it into 2 posts.

In this post, I want to begin with his special and how multi-component specials (especially health cuts) are seemingly misunderstood by most players. In particular, players seem to read specials such as 1.75x boost as being automatically weaker than specials with 2x boosts - this is NOT the case.

My next post will compare TM Kizaru with other TM units.

 

Part 1 - Multi-Component Specials

Most units these days have multiple components in their specials, including utility components such as reducing attack down, defense up, damage reduction, healing, etc., in addition to damage components such as attack boosts, orb boosts, HP cuts, nukes, etc.

I will not be spending any time analyzing utility components, as they are incredibly difficult to compare across units, as it is completely situational. It's practically impossible to theoretically say whether a special that reduces despair by 3 turns is better or worse than a special that reduces paralysis. Events may need an orb locker, or multi-turn attack booster, or perhaps a paralysis reducer, but these specials could be completely useless in other events. However, it is still important to note that TM Kizaru has other utility components, namely a 3 turn boost that extends across multiple boss stages, as well as an orb lock which synergizes well over multiple turn burst.

Therefore I will be only focusing on the damage components of specials, specifically excluding nukes (which although may be necessary in certain situations and definitely contributes to how much damage a unit deals, is situational and much more difficult to compare between different units).

 

Damage-Components of Specials & Health Cuts

Different boosts can stack with each other multiplicatively, but not with boosts of the same nature. However, health cuts are essentially damage boosts that can endlessly stack, both with other health cuts and with other attack boosts, provided the stage does not have a barrier and can be HP Cut.

How do HP cuts work as damage multipliers? A very simplified answer would be to divide the other damage multiplier by the percentage health remaining (or 100% - HP Cut). So a 20% health cut would be equivalent to a 1 / 0.8 = 1.25x damage multiplier.

While that's true for a single turn burst without other assumptions, let's get into the nitty gritty details and assumptions for some specific scenarios. For all the calculations below, we'll assume that each unit in the team has the same attack stat for simplifying purposes.

 

Definition: Effective Damage (ED) - If an enemy unit has X HP and the team deals Y > X total damage (which includes all damage components of specials, including HP cuts and nukes), the team's effective damage is equal to X.

Note: This excludes the effect of IntHawk and V2 Doffy specials from the remainder of the calculations as their specials are extremely unique and situational.

Example: Enemy unit has 5M HP. Your team after using all specials deal a total of 5.5M, including 1M from a 20% HP cut and other damage of 4.5M. Your effective damage is 5M. The principle is - it does not matter how much overkill damage you deal if you are still able to defeat the enemy unit.

 

Definition: Equivalent Multiplier (EM) - Suppose with unit A, the team is able to deal an effective damage of Y. The Equivalent Multiplier is the minimum flat damage multiplier X that a replacement unit B provides such that the team with unit B instead of unit A deals exactly Y effective damage.

Example: Enemy has 1M HP. Unit A does a 20% HP cut, after which the team one shots the enemy. ED is 1M. Without any other information, the team with A will deal at minimum 800k in damage after the HP cut. The minimum flat damage multiplier that a replacement unit B needs is then a 1.25x damage boost. Higher damage boosts, like 2x, will result in the same ED of 1M, but it is not the minimum damage boost. The EM is 1.25x.

 

Equivalent Multiplier for TM Kizaru

Suppose we have TM Kizaru's special, which has a 20% health cut in conjunction with a 3 turn 1.75x adaptable attack boost. Both components contribute to damage, but how much damage does TM Kizaru deal in total?

 

1) Single turn burst, mono-DEX team

To keep comparisons simple, assume that TM Kizaru is boosted in the team. Further assume that after the health cut, we are now able to 1-turn the enemy. Let X be the EM of a replacement unit. Let C be the damage multipliers from the remainder of the team, including the captain ability and chain multipliers and excluding TM Kizaru and the replacement unit.

  • Then for TM Kizaru:

    • 0.8 * ED = 1.75 * C
    • ED = 1.75 / 0.8 * C

  • For the replacement unit:

    • ED = X * C

  • Equating the two gives:

Conclusion

For a single turn mono-DEX team, TM Kizaru provides the highest attack boost @ 2.1875x in the game except for V2 Shanks.

 

2) 2 turn burst, constant attack boost, mono-DEX team.

Let's suppose that instead of a 1-turn situation, we now need 2 turns to completely burst the enemy, with the ED over 2 turns being the entire enemy's health bar. In this calculation, since TM Kizaru is a 1.75x boost for 3 turns, let's assume that the replacement unit provides a constant EM of X for at least 2 turns.

Let C1 being the remaining damage multiplier for the first turn and C2 being the remaining damage multiplier for the second turn.

  • Then for TM Kizaru:

    • 0.8 * ED = 1.75 * C1 + 1.75 * C2
    • ED = 1.75 / 0.8 * (C1 + C2)

  • For the replacement unit:

    • ED = X * C1 + X * C2

  • Equating the two gives:

Conclusion

In order to replace TM Kizaru for up to 3 turns of damage, you need a unit that provides an EM of 2.1875x for up to 3 turns.

 

3) Single turn burst, non mono-DEX team.

One unique feature of TM Kizaru's special is that the damage boost is adaptable, similar to V2 Shanks. What if you replace any other type booster (who is boosted in the team) with TM Kizaru? For example, if you decide to replace Colo Sicilian with TM Kizaru in a V2 Akainu team.

In which case TM Kizaru himself is not boosted by the CA and will be the first one attacking. To be simple, let's exclude chain lock or chain boost.

Let C1 be the damage multiplier for the units that are boosted by the team, excluding chain. Let C2 be the damage multiplier for the units that are not boosted by the team (TM Kizaru).

  • Then for TM Kizaru:

    • 0.8 * ED = C2 + 1.75 * C1 * (1.3 + 1.6 + 1.9 + 2.2 + 2.5)
    • ED = 1.25 * C2 + 2.1875 * 9.5 * C1

  • For the replacement unit:

    • ED = X * C1 * (1 + 1.3 + 1.6 + 1.9 + 2.2 + 2.5)
    • ED = 10.5 * X * C1

  • Equating the two gives:

    • 10.5 * X * C1 = 1.25 * C2 + 2.1875 * 9.5 * C1
    • X = 1.25 / 10.5 * C2 / C1 + 2.1875 * 9.5 / 10.5 * C1 / C1
    • X = 0.12 * C2 / C1 + 1.98

  • Since C1 and C2 > 0,

So even if he is not boosted, TM Kizaru provides almost as much damage as a 2x type booster. You can replace literally every other single turn 2x type booster in the game with TM Kizaru.

In fact, the result from 2) follows through as well. TM Kizaru is equivalent to a 3-turn 1.98x type booster FOR ANY TYPE.

In fact, if we compute 3) using chain lock of between 2.5x-3x OR a chain boost of between 0.5x-0.9x, we'd get that TM Kizaru is equivalent to a 3-turn 2.02x-2.05x type booster FOR ANY TYPE.

 

4) 2 turn burst - Other Units

Similar to example 2. This calculation works for other units with single turn boosts such as Colo Lucy or 6+ Croc. This differs from the TM Kizaru situation above since you are free to use a second unit for the 2nd turn of burst (for example, using Colo Lucy for turn 1 and V1 Doffy for turn 2).

For example, suppose we're looking at Lucy, who contributes a 1.75x orb boost for 1 turn and 20% HP cut. He is the only unit being changed and does not impact the 2nd turn's damage.

Assume C is the remaining damage multiplier for the first turn. Assume D is the total damage multiplier for the second turn. Assume that in the replacement team, the total damage multiplier for the 2nd turn is also equal to D (in the above example, suppose we switch out Lucy for turn 1 but keep Doffy for turn 2).

  • Then:

    • 0.8 * ED = 1.75 * C + D
    • ED = 2.1875 * C + 1.25 * D

  • For the replacement unit:

    • ED = X * C + D

  • Equating the two gives:

    • X * C + D = 2.1875 * C + 1.25 * D
    • (X - 2.1875) * C = 0.25 * D
    • X = 0.25 D / C + 2.1875

  • Since both C and D must be positive,

Conclusion

So a unit like Colo Lucy actually provides an orb boost with a minimum EM of 2.1875x for a single turn, which actually deals more damage than 2x orb boosters like Doffy, especially since his 20% HP cut is unblockable.

Furthermore, Lucy's EM is actually higher than 2.1875x if you are in situations where you need a multi-turn burst.

 

Common HP cut & damage boost units

The above math can be extended towards a number of different units, summarized below.

1.75x + 7% HP Cut 1.75x + 10% HP Cut 1.75x + 15% HP Cut 1.75x + 20% HP Cut 2x + 10% HP Cut 2x + 20% HP Cut
What Players See 1.75x 1.75x 1.75x 2x 2x
Effective Multiplier >= 1.88x 1.94x 2.06x 2.1875x 2.22x 2.5x
Examples Colo Jesus Valentine Nami 20 Anni Sanji TM Kizaru Franky 6+ Croc
Marguerite Lucci Colo Lucy
Oars
Daruma
Bellamy

Comments

  • 6+ Croc provides the strongest single turn burst in the game, despite Nami having a 2.25x attack boost.
    • For a 2 turn burst (on the same enemy), 6+ Croc will only need a 1.56x attack booster to match Nami's damage.
    • Nami has an advantange of both crew efficiency (only need 1 unit vs 2 for 6+ Croc and keeping the buff in between stages
  • Oars is actually the strongest conditional booster in the game, at an Effective Multiplier of 1.88x!

 

Thanks for reading! If anything doesn't make sense with my calculations or assumptions, or if you have any other questions, feel free to ask!

I'll be doing a Part 2 that compares TM Kizaru with other TM Units sometime soon.

 

TLDR

  • Units with 1.75x multipliers are NOT necessarily weaker than units with 2x multipliers

  • Colo Lucy is one of the strongest universal orb boosters in the game, equivalent to (at minimum) a 2.1875x orb booster

  • Versus all content that can be HP Cut, TM Kizaru is equivalent to a 3-turn 2.1875x DEX attack booster (+ orb lock)

  • Versus all content that can be HP Cut, TM Kizaru is equivalent to a 3-turn 1.98x (occasionally 2.02x-2.05x) ADAPTABLE attack booster (+ orb lock)

91 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

138 comments sorted by

32

u/SilverBurger May 03 '18

I can get behind this type of content where OP clearly think things through instead of blindly hyping/bashing certain aspect of the game. Really enjoyed this read. Keep up the good work :)

14

u/omglette no lucy May 03 '18

This kind of content is what this sub needs. Great read.

Would you be interested in making an analysis on the effective multiplier of chain booster captains, such as rayleigh or tm sabo?

7

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Thanks!

TM Kizaru himself is a chain booster captain. You can see from this comment how the effective CA multiplier is calculated.

Sub in 2.25 * 2.25 for Sabo instead of 2.5 * 2.5 for Kizaru nets you a 2.79x CA for Sabo versus a 3.1x CA for Kizaru.

Sub in 1 * 1 and 4 * 4 (chain) for Rayleigh gives about 2.725x for Rayleigh.

Note that this assumes same stats for each unit (including attack, orb, attack stats, etc) and no chain boosts.

If the last 3 hitters have let's say 20% more attack stat than the other 3 (which is often the case - stats are generally unequal), you'd get:

  • 3.3x for Kizaru

  • 2.97x for Sabo

  • 2.93x for Rayleigh

4

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

I don't think kizaru is a bad unit but just not on the level as other TM units. Whitebeard and kizaru are about the same imo and are definitely at the bottom of the TM characters.

Hopefully the new big mom will restore my faith in TM units.

1

u/Whadafaag ~Donuts~ May 03 '18

I also think this, for a f2p unit he is good but as tm unit he is not as good as all the other tm units. Wb and him are about the same, while tm mihawk, zanji and tm ace are legend tier

3

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

I can't wait for this fucking thing to be over. I wanna take my 2 legends reward and nevere grind this hard on TM ever again

Legit killed my fun for 4 straight days. 11hrs of this misery to go

2

u/Min91 Promising Rookie May 03 '18

Sounds horrible indeed. Who forced you to do it though? Cause seems like you had no choice BUT to do it...

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

I forced myself, I put so much time to get to top 500 on nw by day 2 I had lost so many space and its so competitive I hate the fact if I just stop all that effort gets wasted

I also have few legends s my RNG luck is terrible so I really wanted the 2 legends rewards. It feels like I have no choice but to go all in and finish it strong but obviously I could just stop

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Hahaha I mainly wrote this post to distract myself from the fact that 4 days of grind has gotten me 5k Rayleigh points... :'D

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Haha well at least you can invest them ray points into a new ship :)

The grind can be so taxing. Next TM I'll pick which rewards I wanna go for and forget about my final ranking rewards/position.

3

u/hirakhos Can't max this May 03 '18

Most critisism I read, and my own personally, was that the extreme limitation on the targets for his special rather than any issue of it was good in Monodex.

I think it's pretty indisputable it's good in Monodex and a lot of people did that say that. The issue is that Monodex isn't really useful for any content at the moment.

There is one finally consideration even in Monodex however, and that's that using Kizaru on wave 4 to kill a boss won't allow you to use Robin on turn 1 Wave 5, and that can be a bit of an issue in itself. You'll still have the 1.75x, but lacking for the healthcut this is a lot weaker. Frees up a slow to use Mihawk if you want to though.

4

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

My problem is that the best mono Dex captain is v2 rayleigh who needs to be under 30%. Enel Kai is a much better booster since he does both attack and go loss.

2

u/Whadafaag ~Donuts~ May 03 '18

Let's look at what the other tm units do: tm mihawk locks chain at 2.75x, boosts orbs by 2x and deals huge damage to all enemies. His CA is really good too, 2.5x atk and 1.3 hp, 3.5x atk when special is used. Awesome legend tier unit.

TM Cavendish boosts orbs and atk by 1.75x, clears buffs and heals a tiny amount. His CA is also pretty good. I would say only v2 doffy and v2 judge are stronger as driven leads, and those are 2 of the top tier legends.

Tm sabo also has a 3 in 1 special, conditonal atk boost while fulfilling the condition himself, namely reducing the defense and gives matching orbs for the team. While not as strong as tm mihawk and cavendish's CA, his CA is decent. Of course he was made to be used as a sub.

TM Ace boosts atk of STR, PSY and QCK units by 3.44x if they have STR orbs, boosts atk by 2.75x otherwise and boosts hp and rcv by 1.2x. His special: changes all orbs, including BLOCK, to STR, boosts atk of str, psy, qck units by 1.75x for 1 turn and makes str orbs beneficial for psy and qck units.

I don't need to mention the others. My point is, unless you use tm kizaru as a sub in a mono dex team, his ca and special don't go well together, which other tm units do not have. Mihawk, cavendish, ace, wb and even G4, all of these unit's special and ca don't restrict each other, while tm kizaru's does.

If you use a 4 dex, 1 psy and 1 int team and Kizaru as Captain, his dmg output is really good but he also doesn't have any tankiness. His special will only boost 4 dex units, the other 2 won't get any buffs. But if you use a full 6 dex team, his ca is only a 2.5x atk, that's terrible.

At least his Sailor abilities and potential abilities are good. That's why I will only use him as a sub in my Luffy & Ace fs team because he gives the green matching orb, orb lock and the hp cut. Otherwise I won't use him anywhere.

I would rank TM kizaru and TM WB as the 2 worst tm units so far. Could even rank him worse than WB as WB at least has a CA and special that don't restrict each other.

9

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

He only boosts one type.

No one's misunderstanding anything, he's just not that good. His special is mediocre and rarely useful, and entirely useless when a captain.

I appreciate your effort of trying to use Steiner Math to uh, make this more needlessly complicated than it had to be, but it didn't help.

4

u/PatenteDeCorso May 03 '18

Time will tell. I've seen people complaining of how useless were TM Whitebeard, TM Cavendish, etc only to see them farming 3M points at their return to get them.

4

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

You would have to be blind to not see the uses for TM cavendish on his launch. His CA was literally one of the best if not the best of all f2p units and his special is amazing.

6

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Well, no. There's no circumstance that needs to happen to make Kizaru useful.

His special is legitimately awful if you want to use him as a captain, and as a sub... he boosts one whole class (DEX, probably) for more turns than you'll actually need.

If he isn't boosting DEX, then he's excluded and his inclusion in the team is baffling, to say the least.

TM Cavendish? Who on god's green earth was saying he's "not useful"? General consensus was that he was incredible when he came out.

TM Whitebeard is conditional, and certainly there's periods where he's not as useful for recent content (when he came out, things were countering delays rather than having delay blocks for the most part), but is a good unit to have, both as a sub and captain.

4

u/yorunomegami May 03 '18

The thing with those somehow niche chars like TM WB is that while they might not be the holy grail in general whenever their niche (or conditions etc) is fulfilled the outshine any other unit. Personally i rate Mihawk the worst TM char so far (not including Kizaru here as i haven't done enough testing). Mainly due to the fact that he's a Mihawk and not char xyz (in which case he'd be way better than as Mihawk) and he only works for slashers which obviously each Mihawk is. Having said that, he might be the best TM char for beginner (and to a lesser part even f2p players as i think overall Ace is the best unit for f2p atm) but for players with a advanced box there's almost no need to rely on him while there are situations Ace, WB, Cavendish and Zanji shine.

Regarding Cavendish, there were people who said he's not good as he doesn't have that x2+ boost in raw numbers (basically the same thing OP complains. Also v2 Doffy wasn't available so the beneficial orb part was overlooked by most people etc.

3

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

1) Kizaru on a team in which he is not boosted actually provides a type boost of between 1.98x-2.05x (depending on chain modifiers), which is good enough to outdamage every single other mono-type booster except for V2 Shanks and V2 Aokiji. I made this a whole point in the original post.

Some content may need the orb lock and/or the 3 turns carryforward between stages.

2) WB can be used against most content, so he's generally not bad to have as a sub. In fact, sometimes I use him for his AOE rather than his orb boost.

However, as a captain? Aside from the fact that WB is tanky (until burst turn) and 100% rainbow, Kizaru is mountains better as a captain. 3.1x all the time and only gets stronger with disparities in stats between units (and orbs), likely averages around 3.3x+.

3

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

Mountains better as a captain? You know specials are included in there ability to be a good captain right? As a captain kizaru literally boosts only 4 of the units on the team unless you want to go mono Dex in which case you would only have a 2.5x and not the chain boost. Whitebeard is better as a captain.

Not to mention content that locks your chain making him more useless than others under those conditions.

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

You're also dealing with one unit who contributes no attacking damage, which with how hard fodders hit now, is not a good idea. Also, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion of "1.98x-2.05x". What HP are you assuming enemies have here? 10m+ or something?

Kizaru is better as a captain? Yeah, sure. Until you have to boost ATK, and realize his special is cripplingly useless. He requires PSY and INT units that won't be boosted.

TM Whitebeard is very similar to 6*+ WB and Crocodile. He's a very good captain.

Also, chain boosts aren't the best. Aside from how easily they're thwarted, it's harder to boost their damage, as chain locks are counterproductive and chain boosts do nothing useful.

4

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

Vs. fodder, you're not using any attack boosting special.

PSY and INT units are equally boosted by Kizaru's CA - they all start at 2.5x which is not low at all (TM Mihawk for example is a flat 2.5x until burst turns).

In fact, TM Kizaru handles fodder stages better than most other TM units and is arguably as good as TM Ace and TM Zanji, who offer 2.75x attack boosts and TM Cavendish, who also starts at 2.5x. Btw here's a comparison between TM Cavendish (2.5 -> 2.5 -> 2.5 -> 3.5 -> 3.5 ->3.5) and Kizaru (2.5 -> 2.84 -> 3.03 -> 3.15 -> 3.24 -> 3.31).

TM WB on the other hand comes nowhere close. You need to be at 33% HP to even match the first unit of Kizaru's team and need to be near 1 HP to even consider matching overall damage.

Not to mention, his CA is a chain boosting CA, which puts most of the damage on the final few hitters. First 2 units not boosted by 1.75x attack boost? Good thing that they're still boosted by literally every other boost including CA, Orb, Conditional, etc. They also literally don't matter much in terms of Kizaru's damage.

2 Kizaru specials equivalently give the 4 DEX units on the team a whopping 2.7344x attack boost (and 1.5625x to the PSY and INT). Useless? Not really.

2

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

TM cavendish is 3.75 not 3.5 after the 3 hits.

5

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

We keep ping-ponging here.

You keep talking about TM Kizaru as a sub and captain without telling me when you're doing so.

I began my comment in response to the beginning of yours which mentioned using Kizaru to boost non-DEX units, which means he is a sub for a non-DEX captain, meaning he is not likely to be boosted.

PSY and INT units are equally boosted by Kizaru's CA - they all start at 2.5x which is not low at all (TM Mihawk for example is a flat 2.5x until burst turns).

In fact, TM Kizaru handles fodder stages better than most other TM units and is arguably as good as TM Ace and TM Zanji, who offer 2.75x attack boosts and TM Cavendish, who also starts at 2.5x. TM WB on the other hand comes nowhere close. You need to be at 33% HP to even match the first unit of Kizaru's team and need to be near 1 HP to even consider matching overall damage.

This is the prime example. Absolutely nowhere did I say TM Kizaru as a captain won't handle fodder stages.

Not to mention, his CA is a chain boosting CA, which puts most of the damage on the final few hitters. First 2 units not boosted by 1.75x attack boost? Good thing that they're still boosted by literally every other boost including CA, Orb, Conditional, etc. They also literally don't matter much in terms of Kizaru's damage.

Ah the old "final hitters" meme. Conveniently, you ignore chain lockers to push the meme.

But we'll take it further.

http://optc-db.github.io/damage/#/transfer/D1314:99,1314:99,836:99,249:99,1924:99,1846:99C34,10B0D0E1365Q0L0G0R24S100H

8.6m advantage / 4.3m neutral / 2.1m resisted

http://optc-db.github.io/damage/#/transfer/D1314:99,1314:99,1518:99:67:0:0,249:99,1518:99:7:0:0,1846:99C34,10B0D0E5Q0L0G0R24S100H

7m advantage / ~3.7m neutral / 1.9m resisted

We sure lose a lot of damage not having the first two hitters be good.

Chain boosting isn't a good thing.

It's infinitely worse than just having the raw ATK and it's harder to supplement for more damage. Does this make it bad? No, not necessarily, but it's not something I'd wish for a unit to have.

2 Kizaru specials equivalently give the 4 DEX units on the team a whopping 2.7344x attack boost (and 1.5625x to the PSY and INT). Useless? Not really.

What on earth are you talking about??? His special does 1.75x ATK and it's probably to DEX.

5

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

1) So Kizaru is an unboosted sub.

Great, you have 5 boosted units and 1 unboosted. I have not encountered any situation which this will prevent you from clearing fodder stages. Speed running 6 mob CC islands? Might want to use 6 boosted units. Clearing it? Heck no, 6 boosted units are unnecessary.

2) Final hitters and ignoring chain lock is absolutely relevant for Kizaru, who's a chain boosting Captain. You're not going to use a chain lock for a chain boosting captain - he defaults to being identical to a 2.5x captain since he literally loses a chunk of his Captain. You don't use chain locks with V1 Rayleigh do you? (However feel free to use chain boosts with Kizaru).

Also, since he's a chain boosting captain, his captain ability naturally favours the "final hitters" - it's not a meme, it's a mathematical reality (look at V1 Ray for the extreme example). Flat boosters like Akainu are different, where the early hitters make up a larger portion of damage.

3) Read the post. The entire post is dedicated to how Kizaru also has a 20% HP cut, which for content without barriers, is a stackable 25% attack buff at minimum. Then do the math with two Kizaru HP cuts: 1.75 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 2.7344x.

-2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

3) Read the post. The entire post is dedicated to how Kizaru also has a 20% HP cut, which for content without barriers, is a stackable 25% attack buff at minimum. Then do the math with two Kizaru HP cuts: 1.75 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 2.7344x.

How about you try and make it readable? You made this needlessly complicated just to make Kizaru sound better than he is.

Furthermore, this is now my... third time asking? What HP are you assuming the enemy has to even factor in the HP cut?

3

u/madgoblin92 All legends May 03 '18

He is using multipliers in his calculations. Multipliers ignores initial HP.

3

u/JohnnyDgiov May 03 '18

needlessly complicated

I don't think it's that complicated, it's just basic math following a reasoning, the hp cut is factored in as a multiplier, so it ignores initial hp.

he's explaining how the maths of a game about bigger numbers works and he did so very well, you just need to put in effort to read it

→ More replies (0)

0

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

Is my post long? Yes. I warned you at the start. Why? Because I made sure to explain each of my steps. And I doubt 4 minutes since my reply to you is enough for you to actually read it before commenting.

Secondly, % HP Cuts are a multiplicative factor. It does not matter how much HP the enemy has for % HP Cuts (it does however matter for nukes, which are a additive factor.

For example, suppose the team without Kizaru/replacement special deals 5M damage. Include Kizaru's 1.75x attack boost and you deal 8.75M instead. For this to one-turn the boss after a single Kizaru's 20% HP cut, the boss can at most have 8.75M / 0.8 = 8.75M * 1.25 = 10.9375M HP.

Suppose instead of Kizaru, we have some generic X attack booster. For this team to one turn the 10.9375M HP boss, you'd need 10.9375M / 5M = 2.1875x attack boost. Which, is equal to 1.75 * 1.25.

What if the boss has less than 10.9375M HP? What if it has 10M?

Well then, Kizaru team can one-turn the boss. The alternative team can also one-turn the boss. It does not matter if Kizaru team does (2M + 8.75M = 10.75M) and the alternative team does 10.9375M - in both situations the boss is dead and the Effective Damage dealt is still the same - 10M.

Refer to about 1/4 of the way into my post (or just control f "Effective Damage").

Edit: What if the boss has more than 10.9375M HP? Then refer to my calculations requiring multiple turns of burst - in which Kizaru remains at 2.1875x and other units like Colo Lucy actually reaches greater than 2.1875x effective multiplier.

What if the boss has a different HP? 5M? 1M? 100M?

What if the base damage that the team does is not 5M? 1M? 10M? 100M?

The end result is the same whatever HP bar the enemy has with % HP cuts - the effective attack buff is multiplicative.

Edit2: Ah I realize you were talking about the 1.98x-2.05x. Refer to 3) in my post talking about Single turn burst, non mono-DEX teams.

1.98x is the minimum effective multiplier calculated assuming no chain boost or lock. 2.05x is the minimum effective multiplier using the highest chain lock in the game with V2 Ray. You get about 2.03x using assuming the highest chain boost in the game with V2 Shanks (although kind of moot but future units may get a similar boost). The boost is slightly lower (still > 1.98x) assuming a lower chain boost (such as +0.5 or +0.7).

→ More replies (0)

1

u/optclinkbot link-decoder May 03 '18

Link #01

Link #02

1

u/madgoblin92 All legends May 03 '18

The whole post is explaining it to you how he came to the conclusion of 1.98x-2.05x. It was simple algebra if you actually read it.

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

I live in the real world, though. Not a fantasy land where HP cuts are attack boosts and all enemies are specifically designed to make my units look good.

1

u/PatenteDeCorso May 03 '18

Feel free to look for the release of TM Cavendish and see how people said It was bad, easy Skip, etc :)

TM Kizaru gives you a boost for a class for 3 turns, so you can ignore the counter for atck boost for some bosses, only for that, he is amazing.

5

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

One or two people saying it then getting downvoted to oblivion doesn't really count.

He boosts a type, not a class. I hate to sound like a stickler for language here but that's actually really important. He only boosts one type, and it's one (DEX) that has absolutely no problems with finding attack boosts.

1

u/PatenteDeCorso May 03 '18

He only boost dex as captain, under a G4 team he boost PSY, on Jimbe teams he boost INT, with Zoro&Sanji as captain he can boost both as needed, with Luffy&Ace he can boost STR or QCK, and so on.

On top of his versatility, he brings a 20% HP cut and an orb lock. He is an amazing sub.

0

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Why would I use him on a G4 team over Burgess or any other real team booster?

Zoro and Sanji are usually built around both DEX and PSY.

Cool, use him on L&A... what does he offer there? Aside from, again, his lack of boosting himself, why are we only boosting one type?

You're really overvaluing him here.

1

u/PatenteDeCorso May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

Again, he is an universal 1.75 atck booster with a 20% HP cut. Luffy&Ace can easily put two more QCK/STR unit, with Kizaru you have 1.75 atck boost for 4 characters, and a 20% HP cut at a mini-boss, and the same boost for the Boss.

Same aply to the others teams, if you don't find It usefull, ok, but I myself find it really nice. If the Boss counter atck boost, like Kizaru did, his special is amazing too.

There are very few three turns boosters, and Kizaru can take this place on lots of teams, Meta is coming back to colour teams, and he fits nice on these teams.

EDIT: Colo Burgess needs at least three enemies to gives the same boost, and his HP cut is weaker.

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Universal? What are you talking about???

He boosts the captain's type by 1.75x. That is NOT universal.

with Kizaru you have 1.75 atck boost for 4 characters, and a 20% HP cut at a mini-boss, and the same boost for the Boss.

L&A don't need or want an HP cut, they probably want more muscle if they even want anything else from subs.

if you don't find It usefull, ok, but I myself find it really nice.

Of course you do. Hence why you're straw-manning so hard to make Kizaru look good while omitting almost everything about every other unit to make him look better.

There are very few three turns boosters, and Kizaru can take this place on lots of teams, Meta is coming back to colour teams, and he fits nice on these teams.

He fits good on DEX teams. That's about it.

We really don't need three turn boosters often at all. You're severely overestimating how high the HP is for a Stage 4 Coliseum boss.

2

u/PatenteDeCorso May 03 '18

Take It easy, you are overreacting a bit.

He is universal, yes, because he doesn't bost a class, boost a type, the captain type, of course. I've already have already give you examples, but lets see them again.

So, one character can boost 4 members of all these teams for three turns, bringing a 20% HP cut and an orb lock, makes DEX orbs beneficial to all characters and restore 3 turns of his special if rewinded. All in a f2p unit, seems OK to me. ;)

→ More replies (0)

5

u/klyze The cookies stopped coming :( May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

looking at him, from a global player point of view, i dont think the beef the players have with this unit will be his special strength, it will be his versatily, his special is indeed nice, and with units like luffy/ace you can even choose a boost type when activating the special.

Still im not sure players will use him that often, i mean in other than a support role and in niche situations.

I think the major beef players have with him its the captain ability, its weak af its actually decent ( i didnt read the 1.5x chain part, my bad, sorry) for a TM unit he has a nice multiplier but. still ... his special with that captain ability doesnt really screams synergy. :|

I saw the rewards and at 3M points there was a legend reward, i think its not a coincidence bamco did this, i think they add it because this unit its nowere near legend tier not as appealling as most TM units and players would "riot".

Thats my opinion anyways, maybe thats because i personally dont like this new trend of type boosting (captains like akainu / aokiji or this type of specials).

EDIT: in the future, with the release of more dual type units he may become even more usefull, either way.. i wouldnt skip his TM in global, the rewards are the only reason i need tbh.

5

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

Ah but is it weak af? (More in depth in Part 2 - main reason why I was originally going to put this in 1 post)

Why was TM Sabo practically universally praised, even as a captain, when his CA is strictly weaker than TM Kizaru's?

Sabo's equivalent CA is approximately 2.79x for Cerebral above 70% and below 30% and 2.25x otherwise.

Kizaru's equivalent CA is approximately 3.1x for DEX, PSY and INT types - no HP threshold attached.

Sure Sabo is tankier with 1.2x HP, but he has a more troublesome condition, whereas Kizaru has CDR.

Don't like the type based CA? Why not, when Lucy (universally acclaimed as broken af) has the exact same conditions? Ofc you're not going to get the 3.73x CA that Lucy gets as a F2P unit.

Or maybe it's because his special seemingly does not work well with his CA?

  • What if Kizaru had an equivalent special multiplier that boosts the entire team instead of just the DEX units + 20% HP Cut?
    • Versus QCK content: approximately 2.08x if we use a single 20% HP cut or 2.6x if we use both 20% HP cuts in the same turn.
    • Versus PSY/INT content: Admittedly his special sucks ass vs. PSY/INT content when running himself as captain. However, nothing's preventing you from bringing a PSY/INT attack booster as a sub! 2x 20% health cuts still add a 1.5625x multiplier on top of whatever sub attack boost you bring!

Remember when WB, BB and Mihawk were praised for their "insane" 30% HP cut specials that did literally nothing else? 20% HP cuts are the same, just that they have a bunch of other effects tacked onto them.

4

u/JewJulie The True Perona Queen - GBL 575307203 ( Lucy among others! ) May 03 '18

Why not, when Lucy (universally acclaimed as broken af) has the exact same conditions?

Admittedly, Lucy is special. His drawbacks ( not having type advantage against PSY/DEX ) aren't drawbacks with how HUGE amount of damage + tankiness he has. Plus his special is nice and simple. Don't know how you do your equation but I'm sure a 1.75x boost + 2x is very good, like Valentine Nami's.

Oh and the matching DEX/QCK orbs + elimination of naturally spawning STR's, since it creates a lot of synergy.

3

u/KSmoria May 03 '18

But an you come up with some teams with him? No matter how good a unit is on paper, if there is no actual use for it it's worthless.

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

I mean, unless we build teams around specific content, all we can really make are the super damage meme teams.

In terms of actual content - for TM Kizaru himself, I was actually using a Kizaru/Zanji team (with friend Kizaru since the rest of my team were primarily psy). It didn't matter that only 3-4 of my units were boosted by the CA - what mattered was his 1.75x attack boost carrying over from stage 6 to stage 7.

I switched to this team as I started to have trouble with my double Zanji team (not enough damage without the attack boost! & not enough crew space to put Kizaru as a sub!).

In terms of pure damage, let's try to build some teams with each of the TM units! Note that TM Kizaru's special is not working in the calculator atm and will freeze it. Also note that Zanji's +0.5x chain is also not working.

  • Here's a double Kizaru team made vs QCK content. Adjust the numbers for the +0.5 chain and the 1.75x type boost, as well as two 20% health cuts. That's equivalent damage of approximately 29M to QCK.ty Hina

  • Here's a Zanji/Kizaru hybrid team vs QCK content. Adjust for +0.5 chain, 1.75x type and one 20% HP cut resulting in approxiately 29.5M to QCK

  • Here's a PSY Kizaru/Zanji variant vs INT content. Adjust for +0.5 chain, 1.75x type and 20% & 25% HP cuts, resulting in approximately 47.5M damage to INT.

  • Here's a double TM Ace team instead with a 15% health cut approximating 29M damage to DEX.

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Why would I use any of those Kizaru teams instead of a 2x Zanji team which is going to outspeed Kizaru in every way possible thanks to the starting CD lowering + orb safety?

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Oh idk, maybe if you need damage over multiple turns?

Zanji can only sustain the 3.75x burst damage for a single turn.

Or a 3.21x multiplier for 2 turns (and that's only for mono teams)

While Kizaru maintains his > 3.1x multiplier for, well, the entire run. You know, kinda his thing with the fact that his special lasts 3 turns.

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Dude, you know the average HP has significantly less than 15m HP right?

1

u/optclinkbot link-decoder May 03 '18

Link #01

Link #02

Link #03

Link #04

-2

u/klyze The cookies stopped coming :( May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

wow relax dude, i didnt read the 1.5x chain part .. my bad, the captain ability multiplier its actually decent thou, but his colour type and special utility with him beeing captain its still ... an hindrance ... no doubt.

p.s btw i also dont like how lucy captain ability works (3 types), but his special is broken af yeh.

4

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Sorry about the tone :'D

Got a little bit too into it trying to figure out the math.

3

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 03 '18

My problem with this line of thinking is how would players know what units are gonna be useful for future content and what units won't be? Are players psychic? I don't think Bandai would design a unit like Kizaru without paving the way for units like him to be useful in the future.

When TM Ace was datamined he didn't have nearly as much hype around him as say TM Mihawk, yet I see him used more than Mihawk. Wouldn't it be best to just max the TM unit and see how useful they're gonna be after the fact, before judging?

5

u/JewJulie The True Perona Queen - GBL 575307203 ( Lucy among others! ) May 03 '18

This is a huge point, I remember people saying Zanji wouldn't be exciting, but I've seen clear after clear for him. He's a FTP dream, like Ace.

2

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 03 '18

Yeah, Raid Barto is another example. Prior to his release he had some excitement behind him for being a good F2P healer, but now he's one of the most used F2P units period.

1

u/JewJulie The True Perona Queen - GBL 575307203 ( Lucy among others! ) May 03 '18

Yeah, though I was almost gonna make a thread about him, since Im kinda trying to find uses for him, but thats mostly cause I use Lucy majorly.

1

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 03 '18

That's probably Lucy's biggest weakness. Not being able to use Raid Barto, TS Nami, Intvankov or Shirahoshi.

1

u/inaderantaro Will you die? Or will you fight? May 03 '18

He can, with a reduced CA ofc.

1

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 03 '18

Yeah but I don't know how often that would outweight a 3.75x multiplier. Maybe only in the extreme situations it might be more useful to use someone like 6* Shira but I've never seen anyone do that. Don't have Lucy myself (or Shira for that matter) so can't really comment on it.

2

u/JewJulie The True Perona Queen - GBL 575307203 ( Lucy among others! ) May 03 '18

You go from a 7.5x ish lead to a 13.7x ish lead. Almost double the power.

2

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 03 '18

Yeah I know, but you never know when you might need that Gaimon in your team.

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Who was saying an F2P 3.75x captain with -2 CD to all specials and a 2.25x orb boost special AND a unit swap to boost the chain by 0.5x wasn't that good?

2

u/JohnnyDgiov May 03 '18

The solution is to farm all treasure map bosses and all f2p characters, all (or like 99%) of bandai's content is also designed such that it can be beaten with a f2p team, meaning that there will be a point in time you may need a specific unit (like tm kizaru would be) because content will be designed around him.

It happened with tm wb, with neo diamante, with zoro/sanji in raid lucci or tm mihawk in raid barto, so it can happen with anyone (I currently don't remember any more specific piece of content where a tm unit was necessary or very very good for).

I remember when people were trashtalking ace because he wouldn't synergize with lucy or akainu, look at him now lol

2

u/skinny__panda Swimsuit BM when? May 05 '18

The solution is to farm all treasure map bosses and all f2p characters, all (or like 99%) of bandai's content is also designed such that it can be beaten with a f2p team, meaning that there will be a point in time you may need a specific unit (like tm kizaru would be) because content will be designed around him.

Couldn't have put it better myself. If you have a F2P unit maxed then you won't be hitting yourself over the head for not having farmed that unit. Colo Hajrudin is a great example. He wasn't really considered a useful unit until v2 Raid Doffy hit GBL where he was really good for Doffy's revive.

Tbh I wouldn't listen to this sub when it comes to what's good and what isn't in this game. Most people suffer from damage calculator syndrome, as I believe u/_SotiroD_ called it, where if a unit adds a lot of dmg then they have to be amazing right? Meanwhile utility units, which are equally as important, don't get nearly enough attention. Also things like flexibility and what character it is aren't always taken into consideration when judging a unit. TM Mihawk is a Mihawk, only works for slasher captains & slashers don't have the best orb control. So while he does have a fantastic special, he is somewhat limited in his use because of these things. TM WB or Ace on the other hand are very flexible, barely clash with their other versions and WB won't have trouble with orb control since Strikers and PH have some fantastic orb manipulators.

I honestly consider Ace to be one of the best captain in the game, even better than most legends (not the broken ones). Extremely flexible in terms of subs he can use, great CA & great fairly low CD special that synergizes with his CA.

1

u/JohnnyDgiov May 05 '18

Tm ace is hands down the best f2p captain in the game! He's been the king of f2p teams alongside his usual subs such as raid barto, tm g4 and raid boa.

I've tried using a kizaru captain to beat a bit of content just for fun (using p2w teams tho) and I have to say, I'm pretty impressed. With double kizaru raid and zoro/sanji, if you use kizaru's special, even if only three of your units are boosted, since they're the last three and kizaru's CA focuses damage on the last hitters, you still end up dealing quite a bit of damage. If you have 2 of those specials, you have 6 turns of increased damage if you last attack with dex characters.

He synergizes well with z/s too because even if you have 2 int characters, they'll attack first so psy and dex characters will still be able to deal a lot of damage, let's also add in the swap mechanics with a free chain boost every turn if you want to and you have a great combo.

You can still throw in fighter type boosters like colo burgess for up to another 6 turns of 1.75 atk boost, you can use raid lucci for conditional, raid sabos for extra damage, shirahoshi for perfect orbs, raid barto for his amazing special, colo ray for orbs and more, tm kizaru's character pool is amazing and should not be overlooked.

I'm not expecting him to change the game or anything, but I'm 100% sure he'll be used eventually to clear some content!

1

u/klyze The cookies stopped coming :( May 03 '18 edited May 04 '18

reading ace captain ability i can understand right away he his a different beast.

but regarding kizaru thats only my opinion ofc, didnt say he wont be usefull, i farm everything, even some crappy colo units, and i wouldnt ever pass on a TM unit ofc, just the rewards justify it.

And if bamco wants, they can make alot of "kizaru friendly content" ofc, but disregarding TMs or missions were some units are boosted, i dont see kizaru as an "semi-universal" sub like tm wb, or tm mihawk for example i may be wrong but, like you said, bamco can change that, new/more dual captains may be a start.

I made a slight mistake reading kizaru captain ability, its actually nicer, but his special while him beeing captain still doesnt work that well sadly

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

About the semi-universal sub part.

We don't know what Bandai has in store for us. But. The 3 most recent Legends have all been type based, either mono or dual (although both Admirals can easily work as a mono type captain).

If this is a trend to a new meta (instead of class based), then TM Kizaru may yet find quite a lot of use.

1

u/SilverBurger May 03 '18

  • We are talking about a 3.1x F2P Fighter captain that offers sizable health cut, orb lock as well as 3 turn large attack boost here. He can lead all the meta fighters, provide insane utilities and his chain boost allows you to take advantage of stats boosting Sailors as well as addition attack damage SAs. He also makes Dex universally beneficial when used as a sub. That's a crazy package.

  • On Japan, TM system is being tested in real time. We see new changes to the system every single month: Double points periods added/removed; TM maps layout changed; Additional stages added; older TM units added to the rewards system; TM rewards reworked; Boss encounter changed...the list goes on and on. The addition of red poster this time around is not Bandai saying how bad Kizaru is, but rather them trying to further redefine the large picture.

1

u/klyze The cookies stopped coming :( May 03 '18 edited May 04 '18

yeh i made a slight huge mistake while reading his capt ability (didnt read the second part), but his captain ability + his special still has its problems, dont have synergy :/

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Lucci and Burgess are Fighter captains. Kizaru isn't.

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

One last thing I want to add - you could effectively change the description of these specials without it materially impact the game (of course there are some rare mechanics that would be impacted, such as HP Cut interrupts).

For example, you could change TM Kizaru's special as

  • Lock orbs for 1 turn

  • If the enemy has a barrier, boost the attack of characters with the same type as your captain by 1.75x for 3 turns

  • If the enemy does not have a barrier, boost the attack of characters with the same type as your captain by 2.1875x for 3 turns

Does not significantly impact the gameplay, but sounds much better to the average player doesn't it?

Imagine the general reaction to a "3 turn, 2.1875x adaptable type booster", instead of a "3 turn, 1.75x adaptable type booster with 20% HP Cut".

People see the 1.75x and think he's shit, when the 2 special descriptions are for the most part equivalent.

5

u/Cephtriaxon May 03 '18

Haha, I found something where you're wrong (kinda). I initially thought you couldn't make those calculations the way you did them, because HP cuts are dependant on the opponents health and not on your team's damage. But obviously your team's damage only matters up to the amount of the opponents max HP. So you can those calculations check out. You can't say he's a 2,1875 booster for 3 turns though. You can take a 3 turn boost to the next stage (which is one of their main advantages), you can't take the HP cut.

I know I'm just nitpicking. I originally was gonna tell you you're wrong, but since you're absolutely right that's all I have left xD seriously, great post. My hat's off to you sir!

1

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Haha yeah you're right that you can't take the HP cut to the next stage - but that's usually the main plus for multi turn damage boosts over single turn boosts anyways!

:)

3

u/yorunomegami May 03 '18

I like the barrier explanation a lot and i think you should add it in your original post and not keep it solely here.

5

u/ventus #1 Husbando May 03 '18

I think you're too focused on the 1.75x boost yourself, which isn't what most people are upset with from what I've seen. It's mostly the fact that he has an entirely unremarkable CA that is directly at odds with his special. I don't think that he's a completely trash unit like some, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me he isn't a step down from every other TM unit so far.

-2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

See other reply

Nothing's forcing you to use Kizaru's special solely for the attack boost - there's still the 20% HP cut and Orb Lock!

And same with most other units, if you're facing an event that directly counters your unit, you might want to consider using a different unit. Not all units will be universally usable - if the content is a STR boss with a barrier that does not need orb lock, might not want to run Kizaru.

5

u/ventus #1 Husbando May 03 '18

Your other comment conveniently ignores several factors. TM Sabo's CA is weak yes, but his special is absolutely incredible. He's arguably the best Cerebral sub in the entire game. Kizaru doesn't even fully work on his own teams, captain or sub. Closest he gets to full utilization is on mono-DEX, and even then his SA becomes useless. His kit is completely at odds with itself.

You also compare Kizaru to Lucy (and fail to mention any of the other factors that make him insane beyond his boost), completely skipping the logical step between the two that is TM Ace.

You can keep trying to justify why he isn't terrible but it doesn't change the flaws in his core design, which is the actual reason people aren't happy with him.

-1

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

1) TM Sabo was not only praised as an incredible sub (which I agree he's absolutely the best Cerebral sub), he was also praised as the best Cerebral captain for many players without Cerebral legends. Yet his damage averages to 2.79x while Kizaru averages to 3.1x.

2) Kizaru's SA is not useless - that's the point of this post! On mono-DEX, he's a 2.1875x attack booster for 3 turns that locks orbs. On his own team (DEX variant), his two 20% health cuts equate to an equivalent attack boost of 2.6x (in the comment I linked you). Otherwise as a sub on other mono type teams, he is a 1.98-2.05x type booster for 3 turns.

3) Yes, Lucy's orb component is amazing. We all know that. But is it expected for a F2P captain to be on par with Lucy??

4) Ace's CA is 2.75x for 3 colours, 3.44x when STR orb. Kizaru takes the middle ground at 3.1x for 3 colours - what's so bad about that?

5) Let's make some teams in the damage calculator. Keep in mind that Kizaru is not fully implemented, his special doesn't work and bugs out the calculator. Furthermore, the calculator also does not take into consideration Zanji's +0.5x chain.

  • Here's a double Kizaru team made vs QCK content. Adjust the numbers for the +0.5 chain and the 1.75x type boost, as well as two 20% health cuts. That's equivalent damage of approximately 29M to QCK.

  • Here's a double Ace team made vs. DEX content. Adjust for 30% + 15% HP cuts. That's equivalent damage of approximately 25M to DEX.

  • EDIT: Unfair comparison, forgot Marigold as conditional booster for Ace. Try this instead with a 15% health cut approximating 29M damage to DEX.

You know what? Maybe their CA's are roughly similar in power level after all.

4

u/ventus #1 Husbando May 03 '18

You just keep going with the omissions.

1) What's the point here? Sabo was the best F2P Cerebral captain at the time. Which is a single class vs Kizaru being locked into specific color combinations. It also doesn't change the fact that he can at least be noted to excel tremendously as a sub, while Kizaru has plenty working against him no matter where you put him.

2) Read the comment more carefully. The only time his special gets full mileage is in an all DEX team, in which case making DEX beneficial is useless. The point is that there's not a single team you can build with him where his CA is active and his special boosts the entire team's attack, and there's not even a team where it does and his sailor ability is beneficial.

3) No, but once again you are completely evading the point. You made the Lucy comparison as an argument of something like "well we think this is good so why don't we think Kizaru is good?" while failing to acknowledge any component outside of his attack boost that makes him so good.

4) Even if you want to argue that their CAs are comparable, again you are ignoring the whole picture. Ace's special provides a 1.75x boost to his entire team instead, full orb manipulation, and fully enables his CA. Kizaru's boosts at best 4 members of his team as a captain, locks orbs, and cuts HP. Once of those is doing way more than the other and it's not Kizaru's.

5) Meme damage teams aren't a real argument, especially when you're using another TM unit on the team that can actually crank out even higher numbers.

1

u/optclinkbot link-decoder May 03 '18

Link #01

-1

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

1) And yet Sabo is still weaker as a captain. Ever since Lucy, type based captains have actually gotten quite a bit stronger, to the point where Lucy's 3 types are a plus over mono class leads like V2 Doffy - the argument being that you have access to 3/5 units in the entire game compared to 1/8 for a single class. A similar argument can be made here.

2) And again, there is no need for every aspect of a unit to be active at the same time. I made it a point in the original post to show that Kizaru is as good as a 3 turn 1.98-2.05x type booster in every non-DEX team that he is not boosted in - meaning he's good enough to kick off every type booster in the game bar V2 Shanks and V2 Aokiji.

3) Let's compare Ace and Kizaru directly again. Ace's special provides a 1.75x boost to his entire team, full orb control and a 3.44x CA. Kizaru on the other hand, provides a 1.75x boost to 4 units (in conjunction with up to two 20% HP cuts), equivalent to a 2.08x-2.6x boost for his entire team OR 2.1875x-2.7344x for the 4 DEX units (depending on if 1 or 2 HP cuts are used). His 3.1x CA is calculated based on equal stats and no chain modification, which is obviously not the case if we're boosting the 4 DEX characters in the crew, and is much higher otherwise.

4) Also ignores the fact that Kizaru (and G4) instead of Enel & Machvise would increase the damage from about 35M (with LB & CC) in your team to about 49M.btw thx for letting me know they added in a map effect for Zanji

5) I think at this point we should just agree to disagree. I don't think there is any benefit to debate this anymore. We'll just have to see how useful he is in practice in the upcoming weeks/months.

1

u/optclinkbot link-decoder May 03 '18

Link #01

1

u/optclinkbot link-decoder May 03 '18

Link #01

Link #02

2

u/UCLLC 037 953 575 May 03 '18

How does the math change with 4 or 5 Dex instead of mono? Isnt the problem with him that he only boosts the dominant type?

3

u/lwest427 Barto V2 when? May 03 '18

Personally the main problem for me is that if he is your captain you either fullfill his CA or his Special, and the one you choose not to fullfill is a little bit less efficient which is pretty dumb.

Also his Special boosts a single color, so you either have a full DEX team, something pretty boring nowadays, or only part of your team gets the boost.

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

That will be covered under Part 2, where I'll discuss his CA and how he stacks up overall. (Edit: I may have misunderstood your question... whatever :D)

A short snippet:

  • TM Kizaru can be simply used as a 2.5x DEX captain if you use a crew with 6 DEX units (although this is rather mediocre for a TM unit and would in all circumstances use TM Zanji instead)

  • In order to use TM Kizaru's 1.5x chain boost, you need a PSY and INT unit, both of which won't be boosted by Kizaru's special

  • In a normal turn (without any boosts), TM Kizaru's CA is equivalent to a 3.1x CA (assuming equal attack stats)

  • In a burst turn, let's suppose that Kizaru has 4 DEX units, 1 PSY and 1 INT. Furthermore, let's assume that we have a 2.25x DEX/PSY orb boost and +0.5x chain from Zanji. Conditional boosts don't matter (will be canceled out). Let's also assume fully matching orbs and damage is calculated vs QCK (since it's primarily a DEX team).

    • If the other captain you use is a mono-DEX captain with a crew of 6 DEX
    • Kizaru's equivalent CA in this situation would be ~2.79x. (Slightly higher at maybe around 2.84x if you assume that attack stats are unequal).

EDIT: Might have some errors in these numbers, will double check later

1

u/Doffy-Mingo Mingo!!!!! May 03 '18

He doesn’t boost the dominant type, he boosts the type of the captain

1

u/ChrisTheOnly https://www.nakama.network/boxes/575/details May 03 '18

Good stuff. I always liked Coli Lucy's special. Unblock-able hp cut, orb boost, and orb manipulation all in one.

1

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Definitely. Especially the unblock-able HP cut, which makes his 2.1875x EM extremely consistent (only something weird like extraordinarily high HP/hit barriers with very low underlying HP change it otherwise).

Even without the orb manipulation, the only orb boosters in the game that are stronger are both Law's, potentially V2 Ray, and V2 Aokiji.

Even specials like Luffy&Ace or WB who deal a large "nuke" only outdamage Lucy's orb boost in terms of damage is when the enemy's HP is below 1.75M-2.3M (in which case it really doesn't matter which orb booster you bring).

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Kizaru's major saving grace is being able to be used alongside Colo Lucy in a PSY Law team. Law hits the hardest with the last units so you don't miss out much damage from Lucy and Kizaru only getting an orb boost.

1

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

Why Colo Lucy though? Wouldn't that just fuck up your orbs?

1

u/p_jackson19 Promising Rookie May 03 '18

I am actually farming for tm cabbage, maxed two tm units in one single event

1

u/crimsonheartsoul May 03 '18

What they with this equations 0_0? Is that how we suppose to calculate damage?

1

u/ore_no_nakama May 03 '18

I still think that going through the trials of debuffs (and slow af) to obtain such a unit is not that much worth it.But as long as it's free and you choose whether to farm or not it's cool.

1

u/tirena23 May 05 '18

I absolutely love when people get into the detail about optc mechanics :D

So far I've seen people disregard units without even giving them a fair chance. I've seen and experienced people "helping" newbies by providing a team but not actually explaining how to use it. People liking/disliking something without explaining why. It was very difficult for me at first to get started with the game because there's sooo many things to do. I was struggling with a lot of content until I found someone who explained everything in detail similar to this. Posts like these are amazing because it helps people think and see that the game is much more elaborate than they probably think. In any case very good job with this post! :D

1

u/Sir-Battle-Tuna Promising Rookie May 03 '18

I like TM kizaru. People don’t give him a shot but he is unique and free to earn. I’m glad someone out there is giving him a shot

0

u/JohnnyDgiov May 03 '18

same here, I hope he rocks like crazy in the future so all the kizaru haters will have to take back their words

0

u/[deleted] May 03 '18

Good write up. People were of course over reacting saying he was shit and all.

I still probably won't use him because I dislike mono color teams unless necessary.

Jesus fuck. As I was reading this, I reached 1 million points. I didn't spend a single gem this TM. It was all natural stamina.

My 1 Million points Pull was fucking V2 Aokiji. Lol

0

u/inaderantaro Will you die? Or will you fight? May 03 '18

Nice stuff. Do change my mind a bit about Kizaru. But it's also a fact that his CA and special do not work well with each other. And to fully utilize him you better use mono type.

Although I think for Valentine Nami, to maximize damage in a turn burst you would hit 5 perfects and burst on 2nd turn. So her multiplier should be counted as 2.25 and 10% hp cut. Which effetively is 2.5x equal to Crocodile+.

1

u/xyzqsrbo May 03 '18

The HP cut is on the stage before not on the boss. Also 5 hits is horrible to get on a ton of content. Croc is still much better imo.

0

u/inaderantaro Will you die? Or will you fight? May 03 '18

to maximize damage in a turn burst

Well you can also use Nami on stage 5. In one turn burst, Croc+ is more favorable. But Nami is 2 turn bursts and also self-orb to RCV (really useful for enemies with orb badly matching preemptive). Plus she can bypass ATK boost interrupt. Imo she is more versatile than Croc+.

Now what content 5 hits perfect is horrible? Especially when Cerebral have Zunisha support? If enemies has a 5-great barrier you can choose either burst with 1.75 or hit 5 perfects and burst next turn.

0

u/Doffy-Mingo Mingo!!!!! May 03 '18

It was really long, so I’m assuming not a lot of people are going to take their time to read this, but this is beautiful. I love the way this is structured and very insightful!

1

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Thanks! :)

Unfortunately that seems to be the case - quite a few comments complain or ask about specific calculations that is present in the post if they cared to read it :/

If they don't actually read it, I hope the TLDR and the summary chart at the bottom is useful enough!

0

u/yorunomegami May 03 '18

As math is my friend all i can say is 'Thank you!' for pointing out some stuff to the community.

Personally i think that you overrate the hp cuts (due to barriers and mechanics that don't allow hp cuts etc.) but i completely understand that you had to do it that way to show what you wanted to show. Highly appreciated.

2

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

Yeah, non of the calculations are applicable if there's a barrier.

But it's kind of similar to the TM WB fiasco - most content has delay protection, in which case WB is useful. However in WB's case, if there is no delay protection, he doesn't do all that much.

Similarly, most content does not have barriers, in which case Kizaru gets to shine. Unlike WB however, even if there are barriers, Kizaru can still remain useful.

0

u/yorunomegami May 03 '18

I'm a huge TM WB fan because he's basically BiS whenever both conditions apply AND most of the time that specific content is tailor made for him and additionally he doesn't have to compete with his other variants in that spot as those are basically useless for barrier content (which is a huge downside regarding Mihawk for me).

Again, i'm really glad someone did the job to point the math out to the community and i read afterwards in the comment section a comment of yours targeting the barrier/non barrier situation, so you already adressed my main concern.

0

u/[deleted] May 03 '18 edited May 03 '18

/u/FateofMuffins - this was a really great read, and I can appreciate the time you put into the information, as well as presentation. This is the kind of stuff I love to read on this subreddit.

I'm looking forward to your future posts.

*Edit: on the subject of TM Kizaru, I would like to say that my only real problem with him is that I think they should have given his special the condition that, if Kizaru is the captain when activated, that the boost applies to DEX/PSY/INT (maybe for 2 turns instead of 3?); if activated while sailor, then 1.75x to captain's type for 3 turns. Regardless, since maxing him I have used him in several different teams with great results- just a thought though.

-1

u/itzikster Too manly May 03 '18

Beautiful!

-17

u/Vinsmoku Promising Rookie May 03 '18

Too long, not reading.

11

u/FateOfMuffins Doktah Carrot Muffins May 03 '18

I mean... that's why there's a TLDR section :P