Admin Replied
I got suspended twice in the past month, while acting as a moderator. Reddit admins ignored all my requests for appeal or review. I am beyond furious.
I have just completed a second 3-day suspension for alleged harassment in the past month. Both suspensions occurred in response to modmail conversations I was having with banned users, where I refused to unban them.
In the first case, I run a dating subreddit which has a rule that says “no monetary arrangements”. One man repeatedly posted to advertise for sugar babies. I warned him, then banned him. He challenged it. The conversation went back and forth. At one point he said, “I will adhere to the rules and anything out of topic will be done outside of the community.” So, I knew he would post in my subreddit pretending he wasn’t looking for a monetary arrangement, and then discuss money in the private messages with people who responded. I told him “No means no” and muted him.
I got suspended for 3 days, for harassment.
In the second case, someone was posting anti-transgender talking points in a subreddit which has a rule against “anti-transgender rhetoric”. When I banned him, he responded “No worries, I'll be back. Users can very easily evade even site-wide permanent bans from fascist moderators nowadays.” I responded “When you come back with more anti-transgender rhetoric, we'll just ban you again. And again. And again. Until you learn that this isn't the right subreddit for that shit.”
I got suspended for 3 days, for harassment.
Reddit’s message about getting suspended includes a link to the content which triggered the suspension, so I know what I got suspended for, but not why.
Obviously, in both cases, I got reported by users as revenge for banning them.
When I got suspended the first time (about three weeks ago):
On Day 1, I lodged an appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
On Day 2, I lodged another appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
After the suspension expired, I messaged the modmail here in /r/ModSupport to ask for a review, and got told “Will see if the appeals team can give things another look.” It’s been three weeks, and I’ve received no further response.
When I got suspended the second time (just three days ago):
On Day 1, I lodged an appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
(To anyone thinking that I could message the mods of /r/ModSupport to appeal my suspension: when a user is suspended from Reddit, they can not use any feature on Reddit. The whole site becomes read-only for a suspended user.)
Nobody has explained how I allegedly harassed these users who contacted me in modmail. Nobody has reviewed my suspensions. Nobody has responded to me at all.
I am very aware, as Reddit keeps reminding me, that my next suspension could be my last: “If you’re reported for any further violations of Reddit’s Content Policy after your three-day ban, additional actions including permanent banning may be taken against your account(s).” The next time I ban a user, they can report me for harassment, and I could end up suspended from Reddit forever.
It’s ironic. Us moderators are expected to respond to users who appeal their bans, and engage with them in good faith – which is what I was doing in both cases when I got suspended. However, we don’t get the same consideration from Reddit employees when they ban us.
And, when a malicious user can get a moderator shut down for upholding their ban, it makes me a lot less motivated to actually respond to those users and engage with them – which, I think, is contrary to what Reddit wants from me.
As I said in my title, I am beyond furious at the way I’ve been treated in these past few weeks.
EDIT TO ADD:
In the 10+ years that I've been moderating on Reddit (this ain't my first rodeo, not by a long shot), I've prided myself on not being one of those moderators who just shuts users out. I've taken the time to explain things to people. It has made me a highly visible target for anti-mod attacks, but I keep doing it because I think it's the right thing to do.
However, these recent suspensions have left a bad taste in my mouth. It's one thing to get attacked by users. It's another thing entirely to get shut down by the Reddit admins.
I've been reading this subreddit a bit more since I made my post. It seems I'm not the only one this has happened to. I'm seeing quite a few moderators here talking about "users weaponising the report system".
So, I might have to become one of those moderators who just shuts users out, and stops engaging with them - as much as it goes against my personality and my moderation style.
UPDATE:
As well as the public reply from an admin on this post, I have also received a private reply from another admin, in response to this post.
They have recognised that I was wrongly suspended on both occasions.
They have erased both incidents from my record.
They apologised "for the trouble that this has caused".
Yeah it's a mess. I've been suspended permanently twice for incredibly innocuous statements and then reinstated. It took my fellow mods lodging appeals to get me reinstated as I was head mod at the time and the only one with full oermissions, I was completely ignored. One of them I said a public figures comments on a situation weren't a good look. The post in question was an interview about said person's comments, not even their Twitter or anything directly. (for anyone interested it was the mother of an F1 driver commenting on her sons rival and all I said was that being self absorbed seems to run in the family). I was banned for harrassment. Meanwhile people will openly call for genocide against LGBTQ people but because they don't use certain buzzwords the algorithm misses it entirely and it stays no matter how many times I report it. In short reddit admin and it's banning policies/investigations are an absolute joke.
It took my fellow mods lodging appeals to get me reinstated
I've had a fellow moderator offer to use their unofficial "behind the scenes" connections to appeal on my behalf, but I've been trying to play this fair and above-board. I don't want to be seen as pulling strings or trying to get special treatment.
However, it seems that being above-board doesn't work. I got ignored, as I said.
Yep, same here. Temporary suspended twice because I reported hateful/harassing content and never received any follow up to any of my appeals or messages.
I don't bother to report content anymore unless it's really bad.
If a banned user is contrite or simply wants to understand what they did wrong, by all means listen and answer. Once it becomes clear that all they want to do is argue, you are under no obligation to continue the conversation.
We aren’t paid customer service staff. We’re volunteers with no obligation to those who just want to be difficult. Stop engaging and mute as much as you need to.
Yeah, I submitted this yesterday and it was removed for Rule 1 (it is not an appeal).
In the past month, the automated system has suspended me twice, erroneously, for "report abuse" linked to a horrifying NSFL propaganda submission showing disturbing images of disfigured bodies (including children) that I came across in the r/all feed.
I will report a submission multiple times if it violates multiple rules.
This submission is 8 months old, and the system has suspended me for "report abuse" twice.
The first time was for 3 days. The second time was for 7 days.
Both times I followed protocol to appeal the suspension. No response to either request via the form.
Am I going to see my account permanently suspended for rightfully reporting a submission?
How do I ensure I do not get suspended again by this poorly designed automated system?
While suspended, the main sub (only sub, really) that I moderate was overrun with spam, scams, and various rule-violating content. Personally, I enjoyed the break and probably should welcome a permanent suspension but, hey, sunk cost fallacy has quite a grip on me after 7+ years of dedicated investment of my time and energies to grow and serve the community. I guess I want to know if I should quit now if my account is just going to be suspended again for a nonsense reason.
Here is the discussion with the Admin that replied to my request for clarification via modmail: https://i.imgur.com/YTUNC0H.png
Why does it seem like every admin that handles modmail on r/modsupport is super afraid of the Safety team? Why does the safety team need to review and why can't the admins here be like "oh, that's fucked up. I've lifted the suspension/erased it from your record"
One of the reasons I subscribed to this subreddit was that I expected to learn things that would make me a better moderator. For the past 6 or 7 years what I have learned instead are things to help me navigate the oddities of dealing the admins. In this case it means that I probably should reevaluate my already restrictive personal stance for determining which users I chose to communicate with and exactly what I am willing to say to them.
Haven't been permabanned but I have seen fellow mods get it and a few other users for and without holding back completely and totally innocuous and benign comments and submissions.
I sent 3 mod mails here and they want unanswered. I made one post, made it a pretty trolltastic title that forced an admin response from the amount of attention it got and then it took **3 separate public replies here to finally get the user unbanned and content restored. All this came from a sub that decided they really didn't like a flag and mass reported it.
It's really obvious that whatever is behind the wheel of permabans is completely and totally asleep. The appeals team is non-existent, non verbal and non responsive except to unban outright fascists so they can go right back to harassing people. The system is a joke. The only way to get anything done with reliability is to modmail here or post here
a few reasons why Mods are starting to talk about striking again
I haven't heard of that, but I'm not surprised.
I was perma-suspended for continuing a users joke in modmail. No threats, no racism, just a joke about how my username is ATF.
Appealed here on my alt, was unsuspended. Made one comment and was immediately resuspended, appealed here again on my alt and was unsuspended.
And was never given a reason. The only response I ever got was after my first message here:
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, someone will look into it.
Not a "Oh yeah that was a mistake" not a "Well it wasn't a mistake but it shouldn't have been permanent", not even a "We'll give you one more chance but watch it". Literally 0 feedback on what I did wrong, if anything.
So if that's what the example the admins are setting, then maybe we should follow their example when (not) talking to users.
The solution is to stop talking with users in modmail, or create a shared "Mouthpiece" account.
Believe me, I'll be using the "Reply as Subreddit" option a lot more in modmail from now on. No more taking responsibility for my personal statements! From now on, I'm going to hide behind any smokescreen that Reddit provides us - just like they do.
These days, I believe that the best course of action is to not engage with banned users at all. Either simply archive their messages without a response, or quote the rule(s) under which they were banned, and then don't respond anymore; "Your account was permanently banned under rule X and will never be unbanned."
Not worth having to beg for your unpaid volunteer moderation account to be reinstated just for doing Reddit's job.
Yeah. I used to think it was right and proper to explain these things to users. But, considering the consequences, I'm thinking it's not a good thing to do.
I used to think the same, too. But it's not worth it anymore. Users have figured out how to weaponize the reporting system, and Reddit's happy to just let them fuck mods over, I guess.
Congratulations, OP. Hopefully Admin sees now that they can't foist this off onto AI - humans need to continue handling these things because humans (reasonable, unbiased humans at least) can see the difference between right and wrong. An AI is open to abuse by malicious users. If Admin is going to use AI, they at the very least need to check up on it regularly and monitor what it's doing. Because it's insane what happened to you.
However, reading other recent posts in this subreddit, it looks like I'm not the only moderator this has happened to. Maybe if enough of us complain, we'll reach critical mass and something will change - but I don't think that's going to happen just because of my one post.
Well if I can check up on automoderator, which I do, and respond to messages from users who have been blocked by automoderator, which I also do - I approve users all the time that have been caught up in automoderator's filter, then Admin, with all their resources, can check up on this AI they're using and override it.
Just had my main account permabanned for the 3rd time in as many years, for reporting a single comment in a non-hateful way. Boom - banned for "report abuse".
Every time, it has been reversed...but every time I'm given zero explanation of why I was permabanned in the first place.
The automated system they use to determine these bans DOES NOT WORK. This is insanely frustrating, and I agree - makes me want to stop moderating as well. I put in more time moderating than most mods, I would think - but all that free labour means nothing, apparently...if the bot hates you, it'll ban you.
No. Posts will still get removed. Users will still get banned. The subreddit will still be very actively moderated.
But nobody will get told what's happening, and ban appeals will get ignored. I won't respond to users' questions. That way, my responses can't get reported for harassment.
As someone else in this thread pointed out, that's the example the admins are setting for us to follow.
In my follow-up private conversation with the admin from this subreddit's mod team, they acknowledged that my initial contact fell through the cracks, and they took responsibility for that. It turns out that, after I contacted this subreddit's modmail three weeks ago about my first suspension:
that first suspension was reviewed;
it was found to be erroneous;
it was erased from my record;
... but nobody told me. Simple as that.
(I assume this is why my second suspension, three weeks later, was only for 3 days: because the first suspension had been erased, so the new suspension was another "first offence".)
You're right that it shouldn't have taken a public post like this to get resolution, but it turns out that the apparent lack of resolution was actually just a lack of communication about the resolution that was done.
The admin/mod owned up to the lack of communication being their fault, and they apologised for it - repeatedly. They didn't duck responsibility. They didn't give me weasel words or corporate jargon. In plain language, they owned up to their mistake. I respect that.
Actually, apart from that one communications oversight, the on-Reddit admins have generally responsive and helpful throughout this incident. It seems to be the appeals team which is falling down on the job. (I wonder whether they might be outsourced. It's notoriously difficult to get outsourced staff to work to their KPIs.)
Pretty amazing. My harassment complaints usually go unanswered. I have two pending for about a week now on another account about a user or users who follow me around Reddit.
This post is four hours hold with exactly ZERO engagement from Admins.
I'm willing to give them 24 hours. They didn't start work until 3 hours after I made this post. (They all work in California, so they're on that timezone's schedule.)
I remember a fuss a few years ago, when Reddit sacked and re-hired all their employees, and a strict non-negotiable condition of being re-hired was that the employees had to work on location in California.
I'm obviously not up-to-date about them opening a second office in London!
I and many of my online "friends" had a group chat on reddit, and in every few days, two-three of us would get warnings or temporary suspensions due to "harassment". The message mentioned one of our messages we sent in the GC, but majority of the time we had no idea exactly why we were banned, though we were damn sure it was some message in that GC. So apparently some of the members were reporting messages as a joke/revenge, and due to messages not being in English, the AI misinterpreted them and banned us.
I was a member of the group till I was banned for the second time, and then I quit it. But after a week or so, i got suspended for a third time, and then finally permanently suspended, because apparently some idle guy in the GC was digging and mass reporting old messages. I was the only active mod of two major subs with 200k and 100k members respectively. I also had some difficulty to contact the other mods, due to them being inactive or, them not believing that I was innocent, and banned unfairly. Regardless to say, the latter is still poorly moderated.
AEO is woefully inadequate and everybody knows it. And yet, whenever it's brought up it's like trying to point out that the emperor is naked to a crowd of people who refuse to acknowledge reality
This came up recently in another mod discussion, and I wanted to share what I had written there. When we encounter legitimate appeals requests via r/modsupport, we work to grant them as fast as possible. Nevertheless, we agree that the appeals process isn’t where it needs to be just yet, and we’re currently working on ways we can improve it.
I also want to acknowledge that reports are sometimes actioned incorrectly, which can be frustrating and dispiriting. We earnestly want to do better, and are also working to improve our accuracy. u/Brian_Kinney, someone should have reached out to you to address your concerns here.
With that said, and to be fully transparent, we also read posts in which mods allege that they were actioned erroneously when, in fact, they were actioned correctly. But because we value user privacy, this is not something that we can or want to publicly disclose. We will redirect any reports that appear to be actioned correctly to the standard appeals process.
We see a similar phenomenon play out on the subreddit level, when users lambast a mod team for unfairly banning them, when it was done for legitimate reasons. Again, I’m not trying to say that improvements aren’t necessary, nor do I want to diminish the experiences of anyone who’s been incorrectly actioned — just saying that there’s some nuance here.
I just want to chime in here as someone who quite literally had their permanent ban lifted this morning (which I'm very appreciative of)
It's nearly impossible for mods to contact you guys during that suspension. After multiple failed appeals a co-mod reached out to you guys via this sub on my behalf. She was told I had to go through the appeals process. r/reddit.com got me nowhere. I fought for a month to even speak to someone regarding my ban.
I do not want to discredit the concept of some mods being rightfully actioned. As a user I've had interactions with mods of a sub who were literally threatening me, unfortunately they're still mods though.
We understand there's a system in place, and we understand that system has issues. What we want is more transparency, and more effective ways for mods to appeal bans. Potentially a more effective tier system when it comes to actions based on account age, karma, etc
I don't want to feel like I'm walking on quicksand using this platform.
In the past I've made a single purpose account to message the admins here about a very obviously mistaken suspension and there were no unpleasant consequences. Just be sure to include all relevant links.
Good to know! Unfortunately my alt was banned within a day or 2 of my ban, despite being unused. I was more nervous about compounding the problem by adding ban evasion on top
Unfortunately my alt was banned within a day or 2 of my ban, despite being unused. I was more nervous about compounding the problem by adding ban evasion on top
I do not want to discredit the concept of some mods being rightfully actioned. As a user I've had interactions with mods of a sub who were literally threatening me, unfortunately they're still mods though.
This is probably the biggest problem on the site. Mods who basically own over 100 subreddits and ban people simply for being male (Yes, that was the reason I was given with a ASCII art of male genitals and scissor emojis next to them) haven't been touched or actioned on in YEARS while good faith moderators get banned or left unprotected on the daily.
It genuinely blows my mind how just 3 power mods were able to hold this entire website hostage enough that it caused a media storm and they kept their accounts, but me telling someone they were rightfully banned after 6+ 28 day mutes was worth a suspension.
As a mod who was incorrectly shadow banned and all the chain reaction of BS resulting from it (tons of removed content as well as being booted from subs which were incorrectly banned in the process), I'm inclined to agree with the many posts and responders who are identifying over and over what is a clear problem on your end.
Trying to sluff this off with "...the action was correct (in some cases)..." does not address that, regardless of that portion of these cases, there still are more than enough valid claims of erroneous account actions relayed to you in this sub to clearly indicate there is a significant problem going on behind your closed doors. You're very much also missing the point that the mods which you so much rely on are not wanting to stay at it if it keeps happening to them, especially if admin isn't going to take this seriously enough
I had a 6 year old account that was only sometimes able to post and the other times was removed by the spam filter only on a subreddit I interacted with consistently (and later became a moderator of).
The system is absolutely broken and has been for a long time.
It's actually because anyone can set up their own subreddit and very easily cause a backlog.
They could add population filters on that though, but again, they barely have newreddit working and decoupled from old reddit, so this is 5+ years out into the future we could maybe get something like this.
Half of your comment is addressing examples where mods were suspended correctly, and why you won't reply publicly in those cases.
Why did you feel the need to make that point here, on my post, which was about admins not replying privately to requests for appeals? What point were you trying to make that was relevant to the issues I raised about how the appeal channels are non-responsive? Especially seeing as I was not one of those moderators who was correctly suspended.
On further consideration, this seems like a strange reply to my complaint.
By no means meant to insinuate that you were in the wrong here — apologies if it came off that way. It was included in the reply because there were several comments in this thread, and I felt compelled to be transparent about the varied situations we come across without disclosing private information. In hindsight, I understand how it could have come off differently and regret that.
And, yes: you correctly picked up on my concern that your comment made me look guilty.
It was included in the reply because there were several comments in this thread
Maybe next time, reply directly to the comment/s with those concerns. As I often tell misguided users: "You've replied to the wrong comment here. The people you're replying to won't see your response." ;)
I think it's still important if the mod is actioned correctly - that Admins do the same thing mods are asked to do. Explain that.
I also sometimes question the cohesiveness of some of these decisions...based on time stamps. Reddit uses both local and UTC times. And I wonder if this doesn't interfere with the ability for Admins to correctly identify the order of events. I know I've looked at something and gone "how did this get overlooked for X hours??" And then only after a few more looks realize it's UTC not my local zone. But then another time stamp is my local zone and I have to do constantly do the math to to see which action came first. Or what order the occurred in.
Right. Even if it's "look, we don't like that you resorted to this as a first option..." would be a little crummy, but at least now you know you should seek out other options before that one.
Nevertheless, we agree that the appeals process isn’t where it needs to be just yet, and we’re currently working on ways we can improve it.
Just wanted to chime in and ask this.. Reddit Inc, specifically your "admin" co-workers have been promising to improve/fix the appeals process since at least 2016 that I know of..
SEVEN YEARS LATER THE PROCESS IS STILL BROKEN!
Why?
What's the hold up?
Maybe, just maybe instead of creating a new user interface in a poor attempt at mimicking facebook and twitter, and putting all focus on that and adding new features that nobody wants, maybe try fixing the things that are broken first?
I also want to acknowledge that reports are sometimes actioned incorrectly, which can be frustrating and dispiriting. We earnestly want to do better, and are also working to improve our accuracy. u/Brian_Kinney, someone should have reached out to you to address your concerns here.
I have received a private reply about this from one of your colleagues. Thanks for that.
I don't need to be coy about my own privacy, so:
Your colleague recognised that I was wrongly suspended on both occasions.
Your colleague has erased both incidents from my record.
Your colleague apologised "for the trouble that this has caused".
Thanks for this.
Nevertheless, we agree that the appeals process isn’t where it needs to be just yet, and we’re currently working on ways we can improve it.
Good.
I will suggest:
You should hire more people to staff these channels, so responses can be more timely - including on weekends (both times, I was suspended on a weekend).
The text field on the appeals form needs to be longer, so we can explain the basis for our appeal request.
There should be a separate mods-only channel for appeals, so we can be sure of getting a response.
And, before things get to an appeal:
A human being should review all reports involving moderators (acting as moderators), so that we're not being suspended by an algorithm.
If you read my whole post (including the "UPDATE"), then you know how I got two admins to respond to me. Like you said, it's well-written - and I list everything I did to get an admin to contact me.
If you don't see it there, that's not because I'm keeping a secret. I don't have some private back-door special access to the admins.
But because we value user privacy, this is not something that we can or want to publicly disclose
Suggestion: a form of words set out somewhere in this subreddit, like a sticky or similar, that mods can write to "opt out" of their privacy on these matters. Mods who insist their bans are unfair but who don't proactively give admins permission to reply freely would then be treated with more scepticism. I can think of a few legitimate reasons why a mod may not want to give such a permission so refusing should not mean "this person is lying" but it should mean "be cautious in extending this person trust"
When we encounter legitimate appeals requests via r/modsupport, we work to grant them as fast as possible.
So the buried lede here is that you did not consider OP's appeals legitimate? While another admin replied privately to them that they were in fact wrongly banned? Maybe check with your coworkers before you insinuate users guilty of stuff they aren't?
You are being incredibly rude and unprofessional here. Which is nothing new for the admins, needless to say.
I put in a legitimate report, and the reddit admin team failed me. I thought it was serious claim, and you all did nothing against the harrassment I received. And then, you attempted to send me mental health resources as I was the one in the wrong. I can't believe it! It's a joke, honestly. Sending someone mental health resources as they are crazy. That other person should've been banned.
/u/heavyshoes just came across this post. What history is on my record for this sort of stuff? My account has been blatantly falsely suspended twice for "report abuse" in the past year for reporting legitimate rule breaking things. It's now to the point where I refuse to report things 99% of the time anymore since my account is at risk of being suspended or banned for......being a good citizen?
Can you check my "permanent record" or whatever it is and expunge these things? in both cases I lodged an appeal and never received any response. I'm a long-standing mod and a long-standing account. I do not have alt accounts, I cannot afford to have this one banned/suspended again for no legitimate reason.
Modmail isn't the place for a debate on if one broke the rules or not.
Archive and move on. Don't even give them the pleasure of a mute, and report repeated modmails as harassment.
I also got a Warning for "harassment", but they didn't even link it. It was a modmail report, and according to an admin, it was an accidental report from a fellow mod who meant to report the user. The "safety" team actioned me and I guess I was able to get that undone, butonly because I contacted r/modsupport as there is no formal appeals process for Warnings.
The AI is severely broken or, in the rare chance someone actually reads the report, they are on a mad power trip.
Just remember all this stuff will bite the admin and owners of Reddit in the end. They are pushing for IPO, so imagine if their bullshit AOE trying to handle things in the public eye.
Just remember all this stuff will bite the admin and owners of Reddit in the end.
That will provide me with much comfort when I'm finally suspended indefinitely, and the subreddits that I have grown and built over the years are handed over to other people to manage.
at the least, this sub should be monitorred with an active admin present 24/24 7/7. there is no excuse for a bilion dollar company to be this difficult to reach for the people actually maintaining the majority of their operations. no excuse. zero.
We, as moderators, should not be banning people what they do on private messages. The rules of our subs apply only to the subs and then there is the overall Reddit as a site rules.
That's not the issue at hand though. The ban wasn't for "we don't agree with the way you're modding your sub", it was for harassment. Besides, the idea that you shouldn't be allowed to ban someone that is actively making your sub worse because they stand juuuuust on the other side of the line when they do it is silly.
How you get suspended for harassment? Reddit admin mods are not good at identifying what harassment is at all, anyways. I submitted a harassment claim, and they tell me it wasn’t. Twitter is a much better platform, anyways.
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u/[deleted] May 10 '23
Yeah it's a mess. I've been suspended permanently twice for incredibly innocuous statements and then reinstated. It took my fellow mods lodging appeals to get me reinstated as I was head mod at the time and the only one with full oermissions, I was completely ignored. One of them I said a public figures comments on a situation weren't a good look. The post in question was an interview about said person's comments, not even their Twitter or anything directly. (for anyone interested it was the mother of an F1 driver commenting on her sons rival and all I said was that being self absorbed seems to run in the family). I was banned for harrassment. Meanwhile people will openly call for genocide against LGBTQ people but because they don't use certain buzzwords the algorithm misses it entirely and it stays no matter how many times I report it. In short reddit admin and it's banning policies/investigations are an absolute joke.