Converting to Judaism while not believing in Zionism

[u/HomeboyCraig]

Hi all, I’m sorry if this isn’t the right place to ask - but is it possible to convert to Judaism if you don’t support Israel? I was in the process of converting in October 2023, but I stopped attending the temple I originally went to when they said that Israeli lives were worth more than Palestinian lives. Since then, I haven’t actually been able to find a temple or shul in my area that works with converts and isn’t pro-Israel (I live in Portland, OR)

I asked this question on another Jewish subreddit and was called a Hamas supporter and the overwhelming majority of responses said that I can’t convert if I don’t support Israel, but I figured I’d ask here as well.

[u/[deleted]]

Converting here. 

There is more than one flavor of zionism. For instance, I do not think that Israel is doing a good thing right now, but being that there has been a Jewish presence in the area for thousands of years, I think the Jewish people have a right to be there as much as anyone else with a history. Nobody should hold any more sway over the land of Israel than anyone else. 

Does this make me a zionist? I don't think so. But if someone wants to label me as one because of my previous statements, by all means, just make sure you place me in a camp away from the Netenyahus of the world.

[u/conscience_journey → u/[deleted]]

Respectfully, there is not more than one flavor of Zionism. That may have once been true more than a century ago when Zionism was largely theoretical, but it is not true today. Zionism has been defined by the facts on the ground, and those facts are ethnic cleansing, military occupation, racial supremacy, and genocide. "Liberal Zionism", which your rabbi seems to support, is the nicer face of those atrocities, but still ultimately supports them. There is no Zionist golden age these people can go back to where Israel is not committing crimes against humanity.

[u/reenaltransplant → u/conscience_journey]

I'd say there are many flavors -- many different bundles of beliefs people imagine Zionism to mean -- but (1) nearly all of these bundles of beliefs are fundamentally colonialist and genocidal and (2) the weird few fringe ones that maybe can find ways not to be, really should be much more uncomfortable sharing a name with the Zionism dominating the scene right now. There's a lot more we could say about why it's so problematic to be trying to reclaim the term Zionism after the last 100 years of its use rather than disown it.

Even the mildest bundle of beliefs I've heard someone call "Zionism" -- something like "Zionism is the emotional and religious connection Jews have to the historical land of Israel through Judaism and the ancient ancestry of many Jews, and we can revive that connection and culturally ingather on that land without harming anyone else" -- which is what a lot of Mizrahim imagined Zionism might mean before knowledge of new realities like the Balfour Declaration reached them -- seems to require giving Jews unique privileges to immigrate over other people with ties to that land, in order to actualize (therefore: apartheid immigration policy). Unless they somehow have a creative plan to build enough housing in Palestine for literally every human on earth of any faith that has distant ancestry and sacred history there, packing it as dense as Manhattan without harming the ecosystem (which they don't).

[u/[deleted] → u/reenaltransplant]

Would you advocate for a single state system with a pluralist government? 

This is actually what I mean when I say "nobody should hold sway over the land over any other group". 

I've had people tell me a single state like this, even with all sides equally represented, is still zionism because the Jewish people are still living there.

I've also heard this is the epitome of anti zionism. 

And so I'm confused. 

Either way, I feel this is the highest ethic we can achieve, although it might be greatest miracle G-d has ever pulled off.

It would require slicing out some malignant tumors, including US involvement,  and the people on the ground would have to start trusting each other, but indeed, stranger things have happened. 

[u/reenaltransplant → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I would say that a single state with a pluralist government (specifically, one that does not apply different policies to different ethno religious groups in any way) is the only solution that does not retain some form of Zionism. That is, I'm with the "it's the epitome of anti-zionism" side.

Governments like that of Iran claim pluralism by allowing different factions parliament seats on the basis of religion or ethnicity. For example, the 8,000 Jews remaining in Iran currently have one seat in Iranian Parliament, which is more than their proportion in the population would require. The Armenian minority in Iran has more seats, never mind that Iranian Armenians may practice any of several religions and Iranian Jews may also have other ethnicities (e.g. some Jewish Iranians are also Kurdish or Baluch Iranians.) Never mind how people of mixed parentage are supposed to be represented. They should just stop with the quotas and allow all Iranians of all ethnic and religious backgrounds the same opportunities to run for office.

Now, regarding the second issue you raise, of people wanting "Zionism" to mean opposite things:

Words mean what society chooses them to mean. When two factions want you to use words differently, and you're trying to decide which (if either) you'll side with, consider what each aims to achieve by imposing its preferred vocabulary.

Trying to claim that the term "Zionism" just means freedom for Jews to live in Palestine as equals serves to legitimize the propaganda that Jews uniquely needed a nationalist political program to stay on the land some of them had always been on. While Jews in Ottoman Palestine were not always treated ideally, neither was anyone else (the world had few if any non-discriminatory legal systems before World Was 1) -- and after that, Zionism in the form of Irgun and Haganah terrorism became the most powerful factor shaping the trajectory of the land.

Also consider what the most powerful self identified Zionists shaping what's happening on the ground want Zionism to mean. I'm talking the likes of Bezalel Smotrich, Daniella Weiss -- the policies folks like them favor have nearly always won out in the end, in terms of what happens on the ground. They would say Jews, and only Jews, have exclusive, God given rights to the whole of Eretz Yisrael (which they imagine to include Gaza and the south of Lebanon), and to hell with any Arabs remaining. This faction has been winning for 100 years. Constructing a system of terminology that blurs this Zionism with the idea that Zionism simply means "not ethnically cleansing Jews from Palestine" reinforces the exact polarity of debate the far right wants, wherein anti-zionism is obviously anti-semitism.