Rabbi Shapiro talks about Zionism

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[u/lorihamlit]

Love him ❤️

[u/korach1921]

This guy's kind of an idiot, especially in his claims denying Judaism as an ethnic group/people, and I hate seeing him pop up everywhere. Do people even respect or know him outside of the context of giving interviews as a token Jew? Like, has he written any major works on Halakha or study?

Also, for a much better take on Judaism as "religion/ethnicity" read Daniel Boyarin: https://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Genealogy-Modern-Notion-Studies-ebook/dp/B079Z222VX?crid

[u/specialistsets → u/korach1921]

It baffles me that people give him a platform. He is virulently anti-secular and makes things up about Jewish history and culture to promote the idea that the only legitimate way to be Jewish is to be ultra-Orthodox. He clearly has no academic education and is ignorant to decades of authoritative academia related to Jewish history, theology and sociology.

[u/korach1921 → u/specialistsets]

If there's one thing I can't stand in pro-Palestine circles, it's the uncritical embracement of "anti-Zionist" Hareidim/Hassidim.

Not to even go into how their "anti-Zionism" is a form of anti-politics, not a support for Palestinians or whatever, but the fact that I have known many people who have escaped these groups, which functions as highly abusive, authoritarian cults, makes me wonder how alienated they must feel by a left wing movement with only surface level knowledge of Judaism embracing them as their token group.

[u/loselyconscious → u/korach1921]

And Daniel Boyarin is also an orthodox Jew if people really need an orthodox antizionist voice

[u/loselyconscious → u/[deleted]]

I don't think he is gay because I know his wife. Definitely, not straight. He calls himself a "bitextual" Jew in one of his books; I don't know how much to read into that.

[u/korach1921 → u/loselyconscious]

Damn, I stand corrected

[u/bogby55 → u/korach1921]

I'm genuinely convinced that groups such as NK/Satmar etc which this guy holds allegiance to are still pissed about jewish emancipation and the haskalah. They'd rather us all be back in segregated ghettos where they had authority and control over the jewish community.

It really explains the downright disrespect and disdain they have for jewish secularism.

[u/korach1921 → u/bogby55]

Honestly, 100%, and I'm always bewildered by secular anti-Zionists palling around with them as if they have a common cause

[u/MichaelSchirtzer]

If you'd like to hear the rabbi share more we had him on our podcast The Palestine Pod

[u/korach1921 → u/MichaelSchirtzer]

acclaimed Rabbi, author, and rabbinical scholar, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

What exactly is he acclaimed for other than one book spreading some bogus idea about Jewish identity being inseparable from a modernist idea of Jewish religion (which also came out of Christian theology)? Does he have any extensive body of work on Halakhah or textual criticism or history or anything outside that one book?

EDIT: Like, okay, already I know he's full of shit cuz he cites David/Ruth as converts to Judaism even though a) Judaism was not a thing back then, b) Ruth is a fictional character from a Megilah written in the late period of Tanakh composition, c) the act of Ruth joining the Israelites in the book is where the Halakhah for conversion is taken from but is not actually conversion because there was no religion to convert to. Ruth is very much joining the Israelites as a people, and ethnicities have more porous boundaries historically than this guy is letting on. He's talking out of his depth here and just making assertions and regurgitating standard Orthodox cliches

[u/Fun_Swan_5363]

I like him (but I'm an ignorant Christian.) But based on my limited understanding he seems to attack Zionism from a theological point of view, which may be good for really nonsecular Jews, maybe?

Plus similar to how some in pro-Palestine circles don't want to accept or acknowledge pro-Palestine Israelis, we may be wise to accept all possible allies. So the pro-Palestine peeps need to work with and support their Israeli allies, and Jews Of Conscience might be wise to similarly accept Shapiro and all others like him.  "Allies is allies" and I would submit we need all the help we can get to dismantle Netenyahu's violent juggernaut, and therefore we should practice open-mindedness and forbearance towards all of our urgently needed allies whether inside or outside of Israel,  and whether theologically mainstream Judaism or fringe.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

If you've ever listened to his theology podcast, he's clearly speaking to young people. So here is a Jew, among the thousands of pro-Zionist rabbis, who is helping to train, form, and socialize anti-Zionist Jews!  I really wish y'all could see your way to accepting him as an ally if from no other standpoint than that of practicality. Let the anti-Zionists unite!

Plus Miko Peled as well as The Palestine Pod have had him on their podcasts multiple times. That's cred enough for me.

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

Mike has also had Rania Khalek and Abby Martin on his pod, so he's not someone I wanna associate with either

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

Sorry for my ignorance but why don't you like those two? They are both leftists so does that mean you are a capitalist? Or is their anti-Israel rhetoric too strong? Thanks.

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

Lol, they're both tankie alt-media stooges. I'm gonna support Palestine, but I'm not throwing Syrians under the bus for it.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

What does that mean? I totally don't get it. How do they advocate for Syrians to be thrown under the bus...

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

Abby and Rania have spent the last decade of their career sneering the Syrian opposition and doing apologetics and war crimes denial for Assad

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

Oh okay yeah I get that, definitely. I've only been following them since I got into anti-Zionism.

I did notice that the Colonial Outcasts podcast had a pro-Assad stance also. The leftists that are anti-U.S. imperialism may tend to automatically oppose whatever the U.S. supports, such as the rebels in Syria.

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

attack Zionism from a theological point of view

Why should I listen to a "theological" critique of Zionism? Despite the fact that "Jewish theology" is as modern an invention as Zionism is, I'm not a theist and I see no place for Orthodox Judaism in a liberatory Jewish identity. I'm not making common cause with people who run authoritarian cults that control the lives of women and children and uphold ahistorical and irrational world views. These people are anti-Jewish enlightenment and anti-Jewish emancipation as another commentator pointed out.

This guy is not an intellectual or an ally, he's a grifter. He's literally speaking on Turkish state television in this clip, he's relishing in the attention and money he gets from anti-Israel geopolitical actors, he's not advancing any kind of truth or justice. He's not an urgently needed ally, because he doesn't offer anything new, the point being made in this video has been made countless times before him, and is insufficient imo, since it fails to account for the history of systemic antisemitism in America.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

You are entitled to your opinions of course but your criteria could also be applied to Palestinians in Gaza, perhaps. ("...authoritarian cults that control the lives of women and children and uphold ahistorical and irrational world views," possibly being applicable to Islam as well.) So should we not try to save them then?

I'm actually a formerly conservative background. On one pro-Palestine FB page I had shared something about someone I viewed as an ally. And so then a leftist got on and said, "Well we actually don't like that person." And I was like, "So what? You think what is being done to the Palestinians is gonna be overturned easily? It will only be stopped once regular people instead of only leftists, get on board. There will be a critical switch of mainstream public opinion enough to bring about something similar to the U.S. Civil Rights movement or at least the government policies that enforced it."

Religious people or people with differing religious views are always gonna be around. You personally may not agree with them but even if Shapiro isn't a major player, I still think to attain a critical mass of public opinion wanting Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to change, ever person counts.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

I probably haven't studied it enough but I'd guess that systemic antisemitism in America probably came from the fact that many who settled in America were from Europe, and the misperception that Jews were responsible for Christ's death, I guess? Which if studied enough in depth is false of course. And European antisemitism was going on for centuries, AFAIK. How do we get rid of it? Did the Holocaust and everyone's reaction to it, cure everyone of anti-Semitism? Probably not.

It seems like you are wanting to argue against someone who says there is no need for the state of Israel. So doesn't that basically make you a staunch Zionist? If so do you not favor fairer treatment for the Palestinians, perhaps a 'reimagined' right of return like the Zochrot organization advocates (instead of a a literal return.) Do you not favor equal rights for everyone there whether Jewish or not? Or at least a Palestinian state that isn't basically a sovereignty-free joke courtesy of the Americans and the Israelis? Just wondering.

IMO the best chance of survival for a large ME presence of Jews is to do almost a 180. They need to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' instead of blowing their neighbors up. The best way to knock the legs out from under Hamas and Hez is to set up such an accommodatory peace and such an accommodatory two-state or one-state (one which truly tries to make up for the forceful home and land theft starting in '48) that Israel's adversaries are no longer able to gain supporters. IMO.

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

You just inferred from my rejection of a few internet micro-celebs that I'm both a capitalist and a staunch Zionist which is wild imho

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

Well I was just trying to process what your POV is. Which apparently I failed at.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

"....since it fails to account for the history of systemic antisemitism in America."

I thought this sentence meant you use systemic antisemitism in America, as a justification for the state of Israel. Please explain if that is incorrect, what you meant by it? For me anti-semitism here is not any worse than people who are racist against Mexicans, people who are religious bigots, etc. In other words, yes bad but these groups still are able to exist safely for the most part.

[u/Fun_Swan_5363 → u/korach1921]

I didn't say you were a capitalist, I just didn't understand why you didn't like Abby Martin and Khalek. So I thought, well maybe korach just doesn't like leftism. I'm still not sure why you don't like them possibly because I don't understand how Syria has anything to do with it. But I'm a newbie at ME stuff and obviously I have lots more to learn.

I did assume that perhaps you are conservative because the Wikipedia article about Reconstruction Judaism says it was originally a conservative movement but then that it branched out into different forms. So... I thought maybe you are a conservative and therefore that you tend towards capitalism and perhaps that is why you didn't like Martin and Khalek.

[u/korach1921 → u/Fun_Swan_5363]

Conservative Judaism is a religious denomination but has nothing to do with political conservatism