r/JewsOfConscience • u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist • Nov 17 '24
Discussion Debbie Lechtman is doing the “Palestinian Jews aren’t real” discourse again
I know this is obviously a lie because I know a Palestinian Jew who is the grandson of a Nakba survivor who fled to Egypt and traces his lineage back to Edomites (Canaanite tribe) that converted to Judaism. There are people who identify as Palestinian Jews. Not to mention that there are people of mixed heritage. But what I find really obnoxious about her argument is the conflation of nationality, religion, and ethnicity. Does anyone have any written pieces about the issues with the conflation of these terms? Looking for something more concrete to debunk the premise of her argument that this identity cannot exist.
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u/Lamese096 Palestinian Lebanese Muslim Nov 17 '24
My Palestinian grandpa had Jewish neighbours ( this was before 1948 ), they were Palestinian and he said they used to have dinners together all the time. This narrative that this is about religion couldn’t be more wrong. When I had my dna tested, it showed I had some Jewish ancestry ( I’m mostly Lebanese but because my grandpa on my dad’s side is Palestinian, I am registered Palestinian ), I’m Muslim. My grandpa has a much higher percentage of it than I do too, he is fully ethnically Palestinian
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
We’re all cousins!!!!
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u/Lamese096 Palestinian Lebanese Muslim Nov 17 '24
Indeed we are and I wouldn’t deny that fact at all.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
My DNA test has me at 99% Ashkenazi Jewish and 1% Armenian. Though I have brown eyes and olive skin and I’ve had a Palestinian friend told me she thought I was Syrian when we first met. I’ve also been mistaken for Latina. But my sister has green eyes and is super fair.
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u/Lamese096 Palestinian Lebanese Muslim Nov 17 '24
Well, if you put it into perspective, we all have similar features but come in many skin tones. My husband is Syrian and he has green eyes and blond hair, and is super pale, where I am more olive toned and brown eyed like you. I have cousins that have red hair and blue eyes, so I think it’s a misconception that Arabs or middle eastern people are mostly ‘brown’.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
It makes me even sadder and angrier that Jews are killing our cousins :(
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u/Lamese096 Palestinian Lebanese Muslim Nov 17 '24
It is pretty sad. This isn’t about religion no matter how much propaganda the Zionist regime puts out there, we all know the truth. I’ve never had issues with any of my Jewish friends and they know I am Palestinian and that I am Muslim, so this narrative that we are against each other and hate each other is so far from the truth. Technically, we should be ally’s, in the end, we all believe in the same god.
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u/verrma Non-Jewish Ally Nov 17 '24
Considering Palestinians have lived in the Levant for so long, if anything they should be the closest living relatives to the ancient Israelites, right? Over history many of them would have converted from Judaism to Christianity and then to Islam, and also mix with other peoples, but still. Am I correct?
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist Nov 17 '24
Yes. I have some DNA charts and graphs that demonstrate this. The Samaritan population is the absolute closest, followed by Palestinian Christians, Lebanese, and then Palestinian Muslims and Iraqi Jews are about equal, and thats the closest Jewish ethnic group to Bronze Age Levant DNA
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Nov 17 '24
As in there were Jews who identified more with the Arab community than the Yishuv? Sure, a few. A small minority, but yes they certainly existed. You could also consider the Old Yishuv to be Palestinian Jews in the sense that they arrived in Ottoman Palestine long before the inception of the Zionist movement.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24
I know Arab Palestinian Jews exist because I know one as I mentioned. And I know that Jews of the old Yishuv including Ashkenazim were called Palestinians during the British mandate. And Jews who are descended from Jews who lived in Palestine pre-Zionism would be considered Palestinian after Israel is abolished. My main issue is that she has conflated religion with ethnicity with nationality. Palestinian is a nationality. Arab is a culture and ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. You can be all three of these things at once but she says it’s impossible. It makes me feel crazy.
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u/malachamavet Excessively Communist Jew Nov 17 '24
You can be all three of these things at once but she says it’s impossible.
In general, a lot of (especially Jewish) Zionist discourse runs into this idea, that having multiple facets to your identity is impossible or self-negating. It's most explicit when it comes to people identifying as "Arab Jews" but it really extends to many different areas.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
It’s wild to me that being an Arab Jew is impossible but being a Polish or German or Russian Jew or American Jew is fine.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Nov 17 '24
It's more that Jews from Arab and Muslim countries have historically identified with their country or region: Iraqi, Yemeni/Temani, Syrian, Persian, Moroccan, etc. (and also by subregion and city)
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Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24
[deleted]
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Nov 17 '24
I was including Iran in the Muslim part of "Arab and Muslim countries", I'm not implying that Iran is Arab. There are many overlapping cultural and genetic connections between Persian Jews and Mizrahi and Sephardi communities from Arab lands. These communities were not static and there was often migration between them. Historic Arabization is primarily about language, it shouldn't be confused with modern conceptions of Arab identity that came out of the Pan-Arabism movement in the 20th century.
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24
On purpose. If Jews can't be Palestinian and Palestinians can't be Jews, then there's no possibility for integration. To a lesser extent, it's also part of why Zionists demonize Haredim: because their version of Jewishness is in diametric contrast to the Zionist ideal of a Jew.
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Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24
There’s also at least one in this sub 👋🏽
If you look at old Ottoman census records taken from various population centres in Palestine, the Ottomans do not just count the number of “Jews”. They have seperate categories for native Arabic speaking Jews, and have more sub-categories for the exact cities and towns in Portugal, Spain, North Africa, and Central/Eastern Europe that Jews of the Old Yishuv came from. You can find this on documents that go all the way back to the 1500s
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
Whoa!! That’s so cool. Gah I am jealous of all yall MENA Jews who have so much recorded history.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24
Sort of. That data is not based on what they spoke or even where they came from, but membership in a kahal. Like the Sicily, Sepharad Castile (or some other kingdom) etc kehilot in mid-16th cent Safed probably included families who joined the kehilot from the Mustarab kahal, came from the Balkans, Hungary etc. Maybe they were exiles from Sicily, Aragon or wherever, but they also might not have been. And those communities reported to the Ottoman government the number of (household) heads and sometimes bachelors, which are generally assumed to be lower than they actually were since it was for tax collection.
The censuses (nufus) in the 19th and early 20th cents were more direct and personal, were tallied differently since the kahal was not an intermediary anymore.3
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist Nov 17 '24
There's an old (1946 I think) book I posted here a while back by an Australian Jew that tackles this question. It's old-fashioned, but it gives an excellent viewpoint of what used to be a much stronger if not majority opinion.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-760983744/view?partId=nla.obj-760990749#
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Nov 17 '24
I'm sure you know this, but for the overwhelming majority of Jews it isn't exclusively a religion. Keep that in mind. The Old Yishuv certainly didn't consider themselves Palestinian first, if at all. Nationalities are a fluid thing. Most of the on-paper nationalities around today didn't exist 200 years ago, and I'd be willing to bet money that none of them will exist in a thousand years. Arabs, Jews, Druze, and whoever the fuck else will still be there certainly; but their papers will say something different. But the overwhelming majority of Jews in Palestine at the time of partition didn't consider themselves Palestinian and supported the partition. And given the collective trauma and radicalization the Jews experienced that decade, it really shouldn't be a surprise.
Had Western ideas of religion, borders, nationalism etc had not infected the Middle East or Diaspora Jewry, I'm sure that the boundary would be a lot more fluid. But unfortunately, through a century of colonialism and ethnic trauma-the term Palestinian is almost exclusively Arab at present. It doesn't have to be, but the process of rebuilding a civic Palestinian identity that spans across ethnic or religious ties will be a long and painful process. One that's certainly worth doing.
Also, there is a news article somewhere that has an interview with two genuine Palestinian Jews living in the West Bank. Can't remember it for the life of me though
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
Yea I know we are an ethnoreligious group. But someone can be a convert to Judaism and not be “ethnically” Jewish. So a Palestinian can convert to Judaism and be Palestinian Jewish, which makes her argument so absurd. That was my point about not conflating religion and nationality and ethnicity.
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Nov 17 '24
I get what you mean. From an Orthodox perspective, what a person's former background would be doesn't really matter-they'd be a naturalized citizen if that makes sense. But you're right, sorry I just got rankled
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist Nov 17 '24
Well a Palestinian outside of Palestine/Israel can convert to Judaism...
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u/Adorable_Victory1789 Palestinian Nov 17 '24
No there are already Palestinian Jews but most of them are ethnically (even if they are halakically Jewish) due to not being atheist or practicing Judaism they don’t get the Isreali citizenship also we have Samaritans who are not Jewish but considered Israelites too and they identify and accepted by Palestinians as such.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
Yes and am I correct that the Armenian diaspora in Jerusalem are considered Palestinians?
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u/Adorable_Victory1789 Palestinian Nov 17 '24
Absolutely. Actually we can consider even some Isrealis can Palestinians due to being before even Armenians came, what we should know that this isn’t Arab vs Jew or Palestinian vs Isreali it is colonizer vs colonized like there are Arabs who identify with the colonizer and actively participate in the ethnic cleansing for me those guys even if they lived for zillion years in Palestine are colonizer while someone like Ilan Pappe who rejects Zionism and identify as a European Jew from German descent I consider him as a Palestinian like me.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
The overwhelming majority of Jews at the time of the partition didn’t consider themselves Palestinian because they were overwhelmingly settlers. Palestinians are the indigenous people.
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u/heatherHMP Roma/Jew (Seph/Ash), LGBTQIA+, Neurodivergent Nov 17 '24
One of my best friends was literally a Palestinian Jew whose family had been there since and annexation of Jews. And yes I know Palestine Jews whose families fled. Same as they’re are Arab Jews, African Jews, Jews throughout the Middle East and Asia who’ve been there forever and are often ignored.
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u/justlurking967 Palestinian, converting to Judaism Nov 17 '24
I mean, I'm a Palestinian, and I'm considering conversion to Judaism. Palestinians are all descended from Jews, too.
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 18 '24 edited Nov 18 '24
Debbie is a psycho who has completely inverted history. She says Palestinians aren’t indigenous and not descended from Jews but they’re all descended from peninsular Arabs who colonized the Levant and that European Jews are indigenous. These are such blatant falsehoods, revisionism about the Arabization of the Levant, and contrary to DNA evidence. It makes me want to rip my hair out.
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u/Express_Variation_52 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 17 '24
Her commitment to dividing people and erasing and demeaning Palestinians is so damn depressing. The amount of labor it must take to be constantly both denying and excusing a century long genocide........all while "citing sources".
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 17 '24
Who?
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
Notable Hasbarist, Rootsmetals on Instagram
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 17 '24
oh, that idiot. I've never heard of her until people in this sub started talking about her lol
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
it's beyond idiotic, she's highly racist and right wing.
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Nov 17 '24
[deleted]
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 17 '24
Definitely not a community within Palestine today since the indigenous Jews now have Israeli citizenship. But there are people in the diaspora who hold the identity.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Is she still pushing the “Palestinians are descended from Peninsular Arabs/Jordanians” BS? She should really stop considering herself as a ‘progressive zionist’ whatever that is
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 22 '24
Yes she is saying they're descended from Peninsular Arabs, contrary to DNA evidence, and calling them settler colonialists. She's not a liberal zionist. she's clearly right-wing pushing right-wing Israeli propaganda.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 22 '24
I feel like this particular propaganda is super convincing because it takes away a lot of cognitive dissonance for zionists
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 22 '24
It’s meant to keep liberal Zionists away from disavowing Zionism. That’s why the Israeli state uses POC like Hen Mazzig and Debbie Lechtman to spread their propaganda and make Zionism seem woke.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 22 '24
Also like we dont have to bring DNA into this (which i’m very icky about) maybe just like look at historical records? Take oral history seriously? Look at third party sources on Palestinian life and culture pre 1948? Archeological evidence? She’s deliberately ignoring all of this
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u/acacia_tree Reform Ashkie Diasporist Nov 22 '24
The zionist argument is historical records are fake and lying. DNA doesn’t lie.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally Nov 22 '24
Exactly these are just right wing/mainstream israeli propaganda
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24
I know there’s already r/BadHasbara , but I’m still waiting for someone to create a sub solely dedicated to shitting on Debbie and her ig page…🤌🏽